Hey Ron.
I don't want to sound opposed to you, so perhaps the best way to state what I am doing is basically questioning your beliefs based on what Paul says in other verses. That is, I don't know if I agree with some of the things you said, but I don't want to debate.
Agreed. But religious folks also come with the mind that they are spiritual. Jesus showed the Spiritual that they were nonspiritual, and that their spirituality wasn't enough to get into Heaven. The difference is that one seeks to be justified by their works, but we obey Christ to be justified through Christ (that is, if we can call faith and love a work, I suppose it's more of a fruit of God, not really an obedience). He taught that the ones who love Him are the ones who will obey His commands and if they obey His commands, He will manifest Himself unto them and He and His Father will make their own in that person. This doesn't mean that good works saves, no, only Christ saves. But it doesn't change His demands of love AND faith.
Before I say all that I'm about to say in response to this, I will state: I am not free from self-serving sin.
The start of things is faith, because without it, we cannot please God. But the Bible teaches love is the greatest command. It even states that if we have faith as to move mountains, but lack love, we are nothing. So, if we have faith, we shouldn't just pick and choose some of Jesus' teachings. We are called to be faithful to Christ. Not in hopes to justify ourselves, but in hopes of our assurance in Christ. That is, we are saved by grace, but in Titus the accurate definition of grace is that which teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts but to live upright and godly lives in THIS present age. If we aren't living godly, we aren't saved. The apostle John wrote that those who say they are of Christ are to walk as Jesus walked. However, it is clear that godliness is demanded and possible in THIS present age through Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:10, Paul says, "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."
The point of me pointing out this passage is that Paul was saying God's grace was working in him. That is, it was changing him. It was not in vain, as we might be lead to believe, "Well, I can't do anything I'll always be sinful." I do agree that we will always have sin in us, because David wrote no one can understand his ways and asked for forgiveness of his secret faults. But at the same time, holiness is demanded in this life. And not just an idle faith of imputation but a grace that is not accepted in vain or without effect, but one which labors.
We are constantly reminded through the New Testament that grace changes us and it is Christ working in us. Therefore, our good works aren't because we chose to do good works, but because Christ works in us BOTH to will and to do. So all glory belongs to Christ because He has become to us wisdom from God, sanctification, righteousness, and redemption. Which if you read the context of what grace is in Titus (that is, grace that produces physical godliness in this life -- though it is spiritual), wisdom, sanctification, righteousness, and redemption are all mentioned.
Again, I'm not perfect. But Paul teaches something different. That Christ freed us from the body of death and that Christ now lives in us. Romans 8, in fact, teaches we are freed from this body.
I don't believe this is the OP's point. What I believe he is saying, at least as I understand it, is that they had the faith which lead to suffering. If we believed Christ more wholly that in giving we receive, in forgiving we are forgiven, etc. That persecutions and sufferings would come. I think all of us who are in Christ suffer to some degree, perhaps our battle is more Spiritual than physical (that is, we fight complacency and worldliness -- things which can harm the Spirit, not the body). However, I think his point is, if we believed everything Christ said, WHOLLY, we would be more like this early church was. I mean, in Acts, it is recorded that they REJOICED for their suffering. Yet, we are afraid of suffering, let a lone being made fun of...
Anyways, love ya brother
Hope I didn't come off harsh. Let me know what your thoughts are on my thoughts above
