Correct Explanation Of Messianic Judaism

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Avodat

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OK. So tell me something that you must believe to be a messianic that I don't, or something that you cannot believe that I do.

To be able to teach and debate on here you must truly be a member and agree with all that is set out in the SoP and the general concensus on these MJ fora. I think the point now being made is that this is not the case for you by your own confession. Neither must you promote any belief system that is contrary to what the forum rules say - by promoting HR you are violating that rule. It is not for any one of us to make caveats as far as the rules are concerned, but you do seem to have placed yourself outside of the acceptable limits set by the rules.

I suggest you revert to using a non-MJ icon or ask Tishri to make a decision for you.
 
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GuardianShua

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To be able to teach and debate on here you must truly be a member and agree with all that is set out in the SoP and the general concensus on these MJ fora. I think the point now being made is that this is not the case for you by your own confession. Neither must you promote any belief system that is contrary to what the forum rules say - by promoting HR you are violating that rule. It is not for any one of us to make caveats as far as the rules are concerned, but you do seem to have placed yourself outside of the acceptable limits set by the rules.

I suggest you revert to using a non-MJ icon or ask Tishri to make a decision for you.
Definition of PROSELYTIZE. intransitive verb. 1. : to induce someone to convert to one's faith. 2. : to recruit someone to join one's ...

He does not need to be a member of a particular Messianic group. Give us an example of him breaking one of the rules. If he is Non-Trin, then he is using the wrong icon though.
 
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Avodat

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Definition of PROSELYTIZE. intransitive verb. 1. : to induce someone to convert to one's faith. 2. : to recruit someone to join one's ...

He does not need to be a member of a particular Messianic group. Give us an example of him breaking one of the rules. If he is Non-Trin, then he is using the wrong icon though.


House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here:
http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0
In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach, you may post in fellowship. Members may not teach against established MJ theology... Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action.
 
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WOFFED

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Originally Posted by WOFFED
Don’t both Messianic Judaism and Hebraic Roots believe that the five books of the Torah are equally just as important as the Words of Yeshua Ha'Mashiach as found in the first four books and last book of the New Testament..

It's obvious in the SOP that MJs are to be “Torah Observant” whereas, you don't hear the term “Yeshua Observant" as it's assumed. So, is all this infighting because Hebraic Roots and some MJ members of this forum are viewed as being more “Yeshua Observant” than other MJ members. So, which one (MJ or HR) believes that the five books of the Torah credited to Moshe should have equal precedence with the Words of Yeshua Ha’Mashiach as found in the first four books and last book of the New Testament.

Both. As far as the scriptures are concerned, both groups believe pretty much the same things.
So, then what is all this fuss about as if one man’s own interpretation trumps another person’s own understanding.

As we approach Shavuot we should come together as one Body in Yeshua HaMashiach, the only begotten Son of Yahweh as revealed in the Brit Chadashah.

 
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GuardianShua

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House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here:
http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0
In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach, you may post in fellowship. Members may not teach against established MJ theology... Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action.
Quoting the rules is not an example of him breaking a rule.
 
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mishkan

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It really doesn't matter to me that you are prejudiced against other groups except I am HR and 2H and don't believe the things you claim they all do, so not all HR's or 2H's believe them.

I couldn't get the link to the Woottens to play, but I found another by her and yes, she is wrong. She teaches that we are Ephraim. One of her first statements, in fact. That is one out of how many HR teachers? How many MJ teachers are similarly 'out to lunch' in some way?

1. Just because you use the label does not mean everything you say represents the community standard.

2. Honestly, I haven't perceived where you believe anything different from the people I have quoted.

3. Batya Wootten is not "just another HR teacher". She is one of the original trend-setters, right along with Marshall Koniukowsky. The fact that you are not aware of this causes me to scratch my head. I really am not sure whether you understand the issues and the people involved in this topic.

4. I'm not prejudiced against HR. They are fine. They serve a good purpose. I learned a lot from them back in the early 1990's. But they are not equivalent to MJ. And since they have been causing contention with (and within) MJ for some ten years, I believe it is important to distinguish the two.
 
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GuardianShua

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1. Just because you use the label does not mean everything you say represents the community standard.

2. Honestly, I haven't perceived where you believe anything different from the people I have quoted.

3. Batya Wootten is not "just another HR teacher". She is one of the original trend-setters, right along with Marshall Koniukowsky. The fact that you are not aware of this causes me to scratch my head. I really am not sure whether you understand the issues and the people involved in this topic.
Batya Wootten and Marshall Koniukowsky. What error do you think they teach? I know nothing of these people.
 
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Avodat

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For starters he is promoting, against MJism, the HR that he believes is the true way - it is not MJism and may not, therefore, be promoted as an alternative or 'better' than MJism. Members may not promote on here anything that is against the generally agreed understanding of MJism on these fora - HR is against the generally agreed understanding on these fora. The two are very different and, as he says clearly he is an HR person, he should be on here as a guest and not with an MJ scroll.
 
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GuardianShua

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For starters he is promoting, against MJism, the HR that he believes is the true way - it is not MJism and may not, therefore, be promoted as an alternative or 'better' than MJism. Members may not promote on here anything that is against the generally agreed understanding of MJism on these fora - HR is against the generally agreed understanding on these fora. The two are very different and, as he says clearly he is an HR person, he should be on here as a guest and not with an MJ scroll.

All of the congregations I have been to say they are correct, Christian and Messianic. Are you sure that HR is not a Messianic branch? What are they a branch of then?:confused:
 
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Avodat

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All of the congregations I have been to say they are correct, Christian and Messianic. Are you sure that HR is not a Messianic branch? What are they a branch of then?:confused:

Have you not read the whole thread? This is what has been debated for the past however many posts - there are significant differences. HR doesn't have to be a branch of anything does it?
 
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mishkan

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Batya Wootten and Marshall Koniukowsky. What error do you think they teach? I know nothing of these people.

There are a package of assumptions and beliefs that all go together, mostly revolving around the (mis-)understanding of the national and political history of Israel during 722BCE to 100CE.

1. A key part of the propaganda is telling audiences of random Gentiles that, "You could be Ephraimite!" While the bald words seem fair and reasonable, one must view some of the videos to see how quickly "could be" turns into "you are" in the course of an hour seminar.

2. Having told the audience that they are Ephraim, the usual tack is to then displace modern Jews, marginalizing them by alleging that they are "only 1/12 of the Israeli nation". This seems reasonable to people who are not familiar with the history of the captivity and the restoration of Judah after the return from Babylonia.

The net effect of this "push-me-pull-you" approach is to slide in a Replacement Theology world view, where Jews no longer count as flag-bearers of Jewish identity, and are replaced by a bunch of Gentile Jewish-wannabees calling themselves "Ephraim". If you review Jim Staley's popular youtube video entitled "Identity Crisis" (a video frequently circulated by newly enamored Hebrew Roots disciples), you will see this exact process played out.

Hebrew Roots people tend to marginalize actual Jews and Judaism, and come on like gang-busters, telling the Jews "how it should really be done". They bring with them a rabid form of Protestant Christianity and a great deal of ignorance regarding the development of the Jewish people and Jewish theology. Thus, they say things that sound positive, like, "Just show me from the Scriptures...", while completely disregarding the rabbinic discussion and the development of Jewish practice and belief prior to the time of Yeshua.

Hebrew Roots should be viewed according to the original title--"Hebrew Roots of the Christian Faith". It is a Gentile movement designed to displace modern Jews and replace them with Gentiles who think they are justified in claiming a bloodline they have never documented.

This is different from a Christian who crosses paths with HR teaching on his way from the church to the synagogue. One is a necessary part of a learning process on the way to Messianic Judaism. The HR position stalls out, telling people to reject both Christianity and Judaism.
 
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annier

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Definition of PROSELYTIZE. intransitive verb. 1. : to induce someone to convert to one's faith. 2. : to recruit someone to join one's ...

He does not need to be a member of a particular Messianic group. Give us an example of him breaking one of the rules. If he is Non-Trin, then he is using the wrong icon though.
Reading through this thread, and having been around for awhile watching the changes in the sop, do you notice a pattern? Do you think there might be some more "weeding out" developing? Was your vote good to "weed out" other undesirables in common agreement to develop the sop against them? Despite them having used some very similar arguments, as those which are now desiring to "weed" you out? Kind of amazing to watch the process. Now that their voices have been eliminated, with the aid of your voices and vote, who is left to stand to vote for you?
 
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WOFFED

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Reading through this thread, and having been around for awhile watching the changes in the sop, do you notice a pattern? Do you think there might be some more "weeding out" developing? Was your vote good to "weed out" other undesirables in common agreement to develop the sop against them? Despite them having used some very similar arguments, as those which are now desiring to "weed" you out? Kind of amazing to watch the process. Now that their voices have been eliminated, with the aid of your voices and vote, who is left to stand to vote for you?

Luke 18:9-14 (Complete Jewish Bible)
9 Also, to some who were relying on their own righteousness and looking down on everyone else, he told this parable:
10 “Two men went up to the Temple to pray, one a Parush and the other a tax-collector.
11 The Parush stood and prayed to himself, ‘O God! I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity — greedy, dishonest, immoral, or like this tax-collector!
12 I fast twice a week, I pay tithes on my entire income, . . . ’
13 But the tax-collector, standing far off, would not even raise his eyes toward heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God! Have mercy on me, sinner that I am!’
14 I tell you, this man went down to his home right with God rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but everyone who humbles himself will be exalted.”


So much fuss as if one MJs interpretation trumps another MJs own understanding

As we approach Shavuot we should come together as one Body in Yeshua HaMashiach,
the only begotten Son of Yahweh as revealed in the Brit Chadashah

All true MJs should be just as Yeshua Observant as they are Torah Observant

 
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annier

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Luke 18:9-14 (Complete Jewish Bible)
9 Also, to some who were relying on their own righteousness and looking down on everyone else, he told this parable:
10 “Two men went up to the Temple to pray, one a Parush and the other a tax-collector.
11 The Parush stood and prayed to himself, ‘O God! I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity — greedy, dishonest, immoral, or like this tax-collector!
12 I fast twice a week, I pay tithes on my entire income, . . . ’
13 But the tax-collector, standing far off, would not even raise his eyes toward heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God! Have mercy on me, sinner that I am!’
14 I tell you, this man went down to his home right with God rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but everyone who humbles himself will be exalted.”


So much fuss as if one MJs interpretation trumps another MJs own understanding

As if?
It certainly has been the case here before hasn't it? Is this not why the sop has been redeveloped?

 
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mishkan

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Luke 18:9-14 (Complete Jewish Bible)
9 Also, to some who were relying on their own righteousness and looking down on everyone else, he told this parable:
10 “Two men went up to the Temple to pray, one a Parush and the other a tax-collector.
11 The Parush stood and prayed to himself, ‘O God! I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity — greedy, dishonest, immoral, or like this tax-collector!
12 I fast twice a week, I pay tithes on my entire income, . . . ’
13 But the tax-collector, standing far off, would not even raise his eyes toward heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God! Have mercy on me, sinner that I am!’
14 I tell you, this man went down to his home right with God rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but everyone who humbles himself will be exalted.”


So much fuss as if one MJs interpretation trumps another MJs own understanding

As we approach Shavuot we should come together as one Body in Yeshua HaMashiach,
the only begotten Son of Yahweh as revealed in the Brit Chadashah

All true MJs should be just as Yeshua Observant as they are Torah Observant


You keep repeating this mantra as though it is relevant to the issue being discussed. It isn't.

This is not one MJ perspective against another. It is the difference between learning about being a doctor from either a doctor or a nurse. They may look similar to an outsider, but the jobs are very different, and should not be confused.

There is nothing here about one person being any more righteous than another.
 
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