Correct Explanation Of Messianic Judaism

[pat34lee]

get better Bible

What exactly does yours say?

 

[WOFFED]

Originally Posted by pat34lee

Speaking of prejudices, I am still waiting for quotes from multiple teachers to prove your assertions about HR.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7741246-3/#post62936356
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Otherwise, I suppose you could admit that you have unfairly characterized them and had no idea what you were saying.
​

Proving that you have yet to listen to the Bill Cloud video I linked to. I believe you have a vested interest in ignoring reality. It isn't my job to do your homework for you. Especially when these guys spill this stuff in everything they speak and write. They are contrary to Jews and Judaism. Period. Your denial doesn't change that.

Some here possibly think I'm more prejudiced than Mishkan because I quote Yeshua more than I quote Moses

Do the words of Yeshua Ha'Mashaich, the Son of Yahweh take precedence over the words of "משה" [moshe] or do the words of "משה" [moshe] take precedence over the words of Yeshua Ha'Mashaich, Son Of Yahweh.

I am Adonai thy God.​

You shall not murder.

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.​

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not take the Name of Adonai thy God in vain.​

You shall not steal.

Remember to keep the Sabbath day holy.​

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Honor your father and mother.​

You shall not covet...

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[yedida]

It is your job to be able to support your assertions where you say
1 HR's are ignorant or stupid, as in your first quote.
2 HR teaches that the Jews have nothing for us
3 HR believes that Judaism and Christianity have nothing worth saving
4 HR rejects all Jewish culture and tradition
5 HR's are a bunch of anti-Semitic loners who can't get along with anybody

I don't want to dig through a video and try to guess what you heard. I want clear quotes. If you want to quote the video, give times and exact words. There should be enough written articles though that you could search for them online.

This post is kind of proving your numbered points above are true - out of your own mouth. This whole thread and its attitude is proving those points are sadly true.

 

[pat34lee]

This post is kind of proving your numbered points above are true - out of your own mouth. This whole thread and its attitude is proving those points are sadly true.

Thank you. Another insult for defending what I believe, as opposed to a valid argument against it.

When I say 'X' is wrong, I'm prepared to say why and back it up with quotes, history and scripture. Every argument against HR and 2H in multiple threads has boiled down to what people assume that HR teaches, even when shown otherwise.

1 Peter 3:16
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

 

[Avodat]

Thank you. Another insult for defending what I believe, as opposed to a valid argument against it.

When I say 'X' is wrong, I'm prepared to say why and back it up with quotes, history and scripture. Every argument against HR and 2H in multiple threads has boiled down to what people assume that HR teaches, even when shown otherwise.

I'm confused. Are you saying you are not MJ but you are HR? If so, I don't understand why you are debating and teaching on this MJ thread 'if you are not truly a member and share our views'.

Maybe I am wrong - but that is why I am asking.

 

[pat34lee]

I'm confused. Are you saying you are not MJ but you are HR? If so, I don't understand why you are debating and teaching on this MJ thread 'if you are not truly a member and share our views'.

Maybe I am wrong - but that is why I am asking.

I am a messianic who believes in two house and Hebrew roots teachings. They are not separate theologies, as some here would like to believe.

Two house is the doctrine that the tribes of the northern kingdom were dispersed among the nations and lost their tribal identities. YHWH will bring them back to Israel in the end days to be joined with the southern kingdom to create the new kingdom of Israel under the kingship of Yeshua. This cannot happen until the southern kingdom, the Jews, realize that Yeshua is the messiah.

Hebrew roots is a return to the teachings of Yeshua and the apostles. It denies the change of the days and feasts by the church and the additions to the Torah by the Rabbis.

 

[visionary]

I am a messianic who believes in two house and Hebrew roots teachings. They are not separate theologies, as some here would like to believe.

Two house is the doctrine that the tribes of the northern kingdom were dispersed among the nations and lost their tribal identities. YHWH will bring them back to Israel in the end days to be joined with the southern kingdom to create the new kingdom of Israel under the kingship of Yeshua. This cannot happen until the southern kingdom, the Jews, realize that Yeshua is the messiah.

Hebrew roots is a return to the teachings of Yeshua and the apostles. It denies the change of the days and feasts by the church and the additions to the Torah by the Rabbis.

BUT HR and 2H are not MJ beliefs..

 

[pat34lee]

BUT HR and 2H are not MJ beliefs..

They must be, as I believe them. There is no standard set of beliefs for all MJs, though some groups may list some of the basic beliefs.

 

[yedida]

They must be, as I believe them. There is no standard set of beliefs for all MJs, though some groups may list some of the basic beliefs.

There may not be a set of things that MJ does believe but there are a few things standard that MJ DOES NOT believe!

 

[WOFFED]

I'm confused. Are you saying you are not MJ but you are HR? If so, I don't understand why you are debating and teaching on this MJ thread 'if you are not truly a member and share our views'.

I am a messianic who believes in two house and Hebrew roots teachings. They are not separate theologies, as some here would like to believe.

BUT HR and 2H are not MJ beliefs..

There may not be a set of things that MJ does believe but there are a few things standard that MJ DOES NOT believe!

Don’t both Messianic Judaism and Hebraic Roots believe that the five books of the Torah are equally just as important as the Words of Yeshua Ha'Mashaich as found in the first four books and last book of the New Testament..

It's obvious in the SOP that MJs are to be “Torah Observant” whereas, you don't hear the term “Yeshua Observant" as it's assumed. So, is all this infighting because Hebraic Roots and some MJ members of this forum are viewed as being more “Yeshua Observant” than other MJ members. So, which one (MJ or HR) believes that the five books of the Torah credited to Moshe should have equal precedence with the Words of Yeshua Ha’Mashaich in the first four books and last book of the New Testament.

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[mishkan]

a. I told you the information was in the first two minutes of the recording. If that is too long and difficult to hold your attention, that's not my fault.

b. You want clear quotes? I'm sorry, but I find most cultists speak in a circuitous manner, so as to disguise their actual views. That's why it is so important to listen carefully to what is said. You have to remember at the end of the presentation what was said at the beginning.

c. I'm leaving this thread, as it is proving to be a waste of time. You don't know what your own leaders teach, and I have no inclination to do your research for you. I've wasted enough hours of my life watching/listening to HR teachers like Staley, Cloud, and Cortes.

It is your job to be able to support your assertions where you say
1 HR's are ignorant or stupid, as in your first quote.
2 HR teaches that the Jews have nothing for us
3 HR believes that Judaism and Christianity have nothing worth saving
4 HR rejects all Jewish culture and tradition
5 HR's are a bunch of anti-Semitic loners who can't get along with anybody

I don't want to dig through a video and try to guess what you heard. I want clear quotes. If you want to quote the video, give times and exact words. There should be enough written articles though that you could search for them online.

 

[GuardianShua]

I am a messianic who believes in two house and Hebrew roots teachings. They are not separate theologies, as some here would like to believe.

Two house is the doctrine that the tribes of the northern kingdom were dispersed among the nations and lost their tribal identities. YHWH will bring them back to Israel in the end days to be joined with the southern kingdom to create the new kingdom of Israel under the kingship of Yeshua. This cannot happen until the southern kingdom, the Jews, realize that Yeshua is the messiah.

Hebrew roots is a return to the teachings of Yeshua and the apostles. It denies the change of the days and feasts by the church and the additions to the Torah by the Rabbis.

I do not know much of anything about HR. Do you have any quotes from them about what they believe? Could you copy and paste some here?

 

[GuardianShua]

What! Did everyone explode all over the floor or something?

 

[pat34lee]

Don’t both Messianic Judaism and Hebraic Roots believe that the five books of the Torah are equally just as important as the Words of Yeshua Ha'Mashaich as found in the first four books and last book of the New Testament..

It's obvious in the SOP that MJs are to be “Torah Observant” whereas, you don't hear the term “Yeshua Observant" as it's assumed. So, is all this infighting because Hebraic Roots and some MJ members of this forum are viewed as being more “Yeshua Observant” than other MJ members. So, which one (MJ or HR) believes that the five books of the Torah credited to Moshe should have equal precedence with the Words of Yeshua Ha’Mashaich in the first four books and last book of the New Testament.

Both. As far as the scriptures are concerned, both groups believe pretty much the same things.

 

[pat34lee]

I do not know much of anything about HR. Do you have any quotes from them about what they believe? Could you copy and paste some here?

From Wikipedia:

Hebrew Roots is a contemporary global spiritual movement that advocates the return and adherence to the supposed first century faith of Jesus Christ (known as Yeshua HaMashiach [The Messiah] in Hebrew) by seeking a better understanding of the culture, history, and religio-political backdrop of that era which led to the core differences with both the Jewish, and later, Christian communities.

Hebrew Roots (or sometimes, Hebraic Roots) is a grassroots movement without an ecclesiastical superstructure and does not adhere to the COG belief system, nor to Messianic Judaism, or SCM, although, as in most faiths, there are commonalities.
​

Here is a link to the statement of faith from one site:
Statement of Faith - What We Affirm

 

[yedida]

Don’t both Messianic Judaism and Hebraic Roots believe that the five books of the Torah are equally just as important as the Words of Yeshua Ha'Mashaich as found in the first four books and last book of the New Testament..

It's obvious in the SOP that MJs are to be “Torah Observant” whereas, you don't hear the term “Yeshua Observant" as it's assumed. So, is all this infighting because Hebraic Roots and some MJ members of this forum are viewed as being more “Yeshua Observant” than other MJ members. So, which one (MJ or HR) believes that the five books of the Torah credited to Moshe should have equal precedence with the Words of Yeshua Ha’Mashaich in the first four books and last book of the New Testament.

Ah the problem shows its head. You've got it all backwards. Torah is the Foundation upoin which all else rests. Yeshua's words must validate the Torah or He is not the Promised One, the Living Breathing Torah. Torah sets the standard upon which all else is built. Yeshua Meshikheynu showed us how to walk out Torah.

 

[yedida]

From Wikipedia:

Hebrew Roots is a contemporary global spiritual movement that advocates the return and adherence to the supposed first century faith of Jesus Christ (known as Yeshua HaMashiach [The Messiah] in Hebrew) by seeking a better understanding of the culture, history, and religio-political backdrop of that era which led to the core differences with both the Jewish, and later, Christian communities.

Hebrew Roots (or sometimes, Hebraic Roots) is a grassroots movement without an ecclesiastical superstructure and does not adhere to the COG belief system, nor to Messianic Judaism, or SCM, although, as in most faiths, there are commonalities.
​

Here is a link to the statement of faith from one site:
Statement of Faith - What We Affirm

See? You quoted it yourself, HR does not adhere to be belief system of Messianic Judaism, tho there are some commonalities (which would be Yeshua, Shabbes, feast days, and that's about it). Those small commonalities are not nearly enough to call HR Messianic Judaism or to wear the MJ icon for that matter. The deeper theology of the two just don't mesh.

 

[pat34lee]

a. I told you the information was in the first two minutes of the recording. If that is too long and difficult to hold your attention, that's not my fault.

b. You want clear quotes? I'm sorry, but I find most cultists speak in a circuitous manner, so as to disguise their actual views. That's why it is so important to listen carefully to what is said. You have to remember at the end of the presentation what was said at the beginning.

c. I'm leaving this thread, as it is proving to be a waste of time. You don't know what your own leaders teach, and I have no inclination to do your research for you. I've wasted enough hours of my life watching/listening to HR teachers like Staley, Cloud, and Cortes.

It really doesn't matter to me that you are prejudiced against other groups except I am HR and 2H and don't believe the things you claim they all do, so not all HR's or 2H's believe them.

I couldn't get the link to the Woottens to play, but I found another by her and yes, she is wrong. She teaches that we are Ephraim. One of her first statements, in fact. That is one out of how many HR teachers? How many MJ teachers are similarly 'out to lunch' in some way?

 

[pat34lee]

See? You quoted it yourself, HR does not adhere to be belief system of Messianic Judaism, tho there are some commonalities (which would be Yeshua, Shabbes, feast days, and that's about it). Those small commonalities are not nearly enough to call HR Messianic Judaism or to wear the MJ icon for that matter. The deeper theology of the two just don't mesh.

OK. So tell me something that you must believe to be a messianic that I don't, or something that you cannot believe that I do.

 

[GuardianShua]

From Wikipedia:

Hebrew Roots is a contemporary global spiritual movement that advocates the return and adherence to the supposed first century faith of Jesus Christ (known as Yeshua HaMashiach [The Messiah] in Hebrew) by seeking a better understanding of the culture, history, and religio-political backdrop of that era which led to the core differences with both the Jewish, and later, Christian communities.

Hebrew Roots (or sometimes, Hebraic Roots) is a grassroots movement without an ecclesiastical superstructure and does not adhere to the COG belief system, nor to Messianic Judaism, or SCM, although, as in most faiths, there are commonalities.
​

Here is a link to the statement of faith from one site:
Statement of Faith - What We Affirm

If HR are Non-Trin, then how come you are not using the Menorah, the only faith symbol approved of by Him?