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Correct Explanation Of Messianic Judaism

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by WOFFED, Apr 25, 2013.

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  1. mishkan

    mishkan There's room for YOU in the Mishkan! Supporter

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    Here is a link to a Hebrew Roots speaker at a recent HR conference. Listen to the first two minutes, and you will see HE makes the distinctions I describe. This is not an MJ reaction. What I have shared have come from the mouths of HR speakers. It is THEY who distinguish between what they do and Messianic Judaism.
     
  2. WOFFED

    WOFFED Guest

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    How many four letter acronym organizations are there now in the all encompassing various Messianic Organizations? Are their ordinances set in concrete so-to-speak or have they changed over the years.

    Fault me if you will for not being prejudiced in favor or disfavor of one over the other. Perhaps you are of the opinion that there will be a greater number in Heaven from the Messianic Organization that you favor as opposed to the Messianic Organization that you don't favor. Which is it now Messianic One Law and Hebraic Two House or the other way around ... Messianic Two House and Hebraic One Law.


     
  3. mishkan

    mishkan There's room for YOU in the Mishkan! Supporter

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    I don't really care where your prejudices lie (actually, they are quite evident to all). But don't pretend that differences are not clear and distinct, as per the leaders of the Hebrew Roots community.
     
  4. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    The kingdom was short-lived and was cursed, divorced and dispersed. They are still distinct from the southern tribes, whether you want to call them the kingdom of Judah or the Jews. They will not be merged into the current Jewish religious system, but under Yeshua's direct rule.

    How many people have you heard say, I think my grandmother or grandfather was a Jew, but they never told us for sure. People can either refuse to pass on their heritage, or they can convert and consciously deny their heritage. The KoJ had a different situation than KoI when it was taken captive. The southern tribes were never forcibly dispersed in small groups to force assimilation. The larger the community that you have, the easier it is to keep group tradition and laws.

    You don't emulate anybody? Really? Where in scripture does it say to wear a tallit and kippah? To deny the name of Yahuah or Yahweh by not using it? Mezuzah? How many traditions do you observe that are either not biblical or only somewhat relate to a command but you do them because the Jews do?
    Baruch atah YHWH, eloheinu melech haolam, hamotzi lechem min ha'aretz.
    Probably sounds familiar except the third word if you follow the standard way of saying it. Have you ever stopped to consider whether these standardized forms constitute rote prayer?

    If I am anti-Semitic for calling them blind, then so was Shaul.
    2 Corinthians 3
    12
    Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
    13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
    14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
    15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
    16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
    He also speaks about it in Romans 11.
     
  5. WOFFED

    WOFFED Guest

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    Actually, I'm not prejudiced to or against one or the other, but apparently its a big deal with you. Some people might call that prejudicial.

    You wrongly assume I'm prejudiced and only because I don't favor those Hebraic Believers that you favor or dislike those Messianic organizations that you frown upon.

    Mark 12:30 (Complete Jewish Bible)
    and you are to love Adonai your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your understanding and with all your strength.

    1 Corinthians 13:13 (Complete Jewish Bible)
    But for now, three things last — trust, hope, love; and the greatest of these is love.



     
  6. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

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    why not read the Torah carefully re. the famous veil...
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2013
  7. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    I know the story. Why do you ask?
     
  8. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

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    Moses never wore veil when talking to the people. He put veil on AFTER he FINISHED talking Exodus 34 33. BTW what was being abolished that they could not look at?
     
  9. Avodat

    Avodat Contending for Biblical truth

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    Mishkan and I see eye to eye on a number of things... but not the comment attributed to him, above, as he knows (we've addressed it before). And, yes, I am a theologian and a Messianic.

    There is a great tendency on these fora to paint ALL Christians and their doctrinal statements etc as anti-Semitic, usually reflecting what is seen in Christian churches, groups or individuals in the US, today; this does not, however, guarantee that the same views have permeated all Christians, Churches or groups around the world.

    Historically, I would agree that Christian theology was seriously tainted by anti-semitic views (it would be foolish to deny that), and debate continues as to what extent; to claim that the core of ALL Christian theology is anti-semitic is incorrect and needs to be withdrawn. Today many people work to change these views and to point out these errors at a variety of levels in the Church - such comments makes our work much harder by alienating the very Christians we are trying to instruct in the real truth of G_d's word.
     
  10. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    In Exodus 34:33, he had to put on the veil until he finished, not after talking to the people. In vs. 34-35, he took the veil off to speak to YHWH, then put it on again for the people.

    Paul is talking about Yeshua.
    John 5:46
    For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
    They could not see where the law led them to Yeshua, not to an end of law, but of reliance on the law.
     
  11. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

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    In my Bible Moses never speaks veiled. I don't know what you're reading.
     
  12. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    Speaking of prejudices, I am still waiting for quotes from multiple teachers to prove your assertions about HR.
    http://www.christianforums.com/t7741246-3/#post62936356

    Otherwise, I suppose you could admit that you have unfairly characterized them and had no idea what you were saying. :amen:
     
  13. WOFFED

    WOFFED Guest

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    This was especially true before the 16th-century Reformation and before the Pilgrims fled England and before America became Israel’s strongest ally.

    Not all Christians are cut from the same cloth. However, there may be some MJs that are so prejudiced as to think that all Christians are anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist. There are even some MJs that sow seeds of discord among the greater body of Messianic Believers. MJs who say they are followers of the teachings of Yeshua Ha’Mashaich.

    Some MJs get all caught up in who is more Torah Observant and who is less Torah Observant. It’s parallel to who is more religious and who is less religious. Just because one MJ is more Torah Observant than another shouldn’t be construed to mean he also loves Yeshua more than one that he may look down upon.

    Luke 18:10-17 (Complete Jewish Bible)
    10 “Two men went up to the Temple to pray, one a Parush and the other a tax-collector.
    11 The Parush stood and prayed to himself, ‘O God! I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity — greedy, dishonest, immoral, or like this tax-collector!
    12 I fast twice a week, I pay tithes on my entire income, . . . ’
    13 But the tax-collector, standing far off, would not even raise his eyes toward heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God! Have mercy on me, sinner that I am!’
    14 I tell you, this man went down to his home right with God rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but everyone who humbles himself will be exalted.”
    15 People brought him babies to touch; but when the talmidim saw the people doing this, they rebuked them.
    16 However, Yeshua called the children to him and said, “Let the children come to me, and stop hindering them, because the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
    17 Yes! I tell you that whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a little child will not enter it at all!”

    Matthew 22:36-40 (Complete Jewish Bible)
    36 “Rabbi, which of the mitzvot in the Torah is the most important?”
    37 He told him, “‘You are to love Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.’[a] 38 This is the greatest and most important mitzvah.
    39 And a second is similar to it, ‘You are to love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]
    40 All of the Torah and the Prophets are dependent on these two mitzvot



     
  14. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    So let's focus on the good ... the MJ who are not pointing fingers but doing good. .. the steady mainstream body that has both Jew and gentile living in harmony and treated equally.
     
  15. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    Exodus 34 KJV
    33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.
    34 But when Moses went in before the Lord to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.
    35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

    33 Moses put the vail on until he finished speaking with the people.
    34 he took the vail off to speak to YHWH
    35 he put the vail on again until he went back in to speak to YHWH.
     
  16. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Moses' face shone with God's glory and was too much for the people to bear, so he wore a veil. Not that he needed it when he was before God, but for the people's sake. I think we should all strive to be able to stand in the face of God's glory and rejoice in it.
     
  17. mishkan

    mishkan There's room for YOU in the Mishkan! Supporter

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    Proving that you have yet to listen to the Bill Cloud video I linked to. I believe you have a vested interest in ignoring reality. It isn't my job to do your homework for you. Especially when these guys spill this stuff in everything they speak and write. They are contrary to Jews and Judaism. Period. Your denial doesn't change that.
     
  18. danny ski

    danny ski Newbie

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    get better Bible
     
  19. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Exodus 34:35
    But when the people of Isra’el saw Moshe’s face, that the skin of Moshe’s face shone, he would put the veil back over his face until he went in again to speak with [Adonai]. Haftarah Ki Tissa: M’lakhim Alef (1 Kings) 18:1–39 (A); 18:20–39 (S) B’rit Hadashah suggested reading for Parashah Ki Tissa: Luke 11:14 –20; Acts 7:35–8:1; 1 Corinthians 10:1–13; 2 Corinthians 3:1–18
     
  20. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    It is your job to be able to support your assertions where you say
    1 HR's are ignorant or stupid, as in your first quote.
    2 HR teaches that the Jews have nothing for us
    3 HR believes that Judaism and Christianity have nothing worth saving
    4 HR rejects all Jewish culture and tradition
    5 HR's are a bunch of anti-Semitic loners who can't get along with anybody

    I don't want to dig through a video and try to guess what you heard. I want clear quotes. If you want to quote the video, give times and exact words. There should be enough written articles though that you could search for them online.
     
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