Correct Explanation Of Messianic Judaism

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dnc101

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... I am a systems analyst by trade. And while I agree that treating individuals as individuals is always a good practice, I also have no problem identifying commonalities, as well as the differences. One must look for trends and 90% solutions, and not get caught up in the details.
Hard to argue with that, other than to say I think you may be a little too skewed in your percentage there. But that's opinion based on admitedly limited experience.

Hebrew Roots organizations are extremely easy to identify, really. They almost always feature belief in Two House Theology or Sacred Name Use... or both! Their members tend to be extremely (overly) zealous for Shabbat and Kashrut. But like the Seventh Day Adventists, they tend to know little more than these couple of easily identifiable public aspects of Torah-based identity. And, above all, Hebrew Roots groups can be distinguished by their general animosity towards tradition of any kind. They are Lone Rangers, at heart.
I've run into the 2 house (though I didn't know what it was at the time) and the Sacred Names extremist lunatic types (not that all are lunatics, just that the ones I met were certifiable). But I've also met some very sincere people who are just looking for some answers. I get some materials and books from one HR pastor over on the coast (Mark Biltz) who, while I don't always agree seems to be pretty solid.

Perhaps what confuses you is the fact that the anti-Jewish statements usually go along with anti-Church statements. I do not claim that they are not even-handed in their disdain for established communities. But, in the context of Messianic Judaism, they make it clear that they have no concern for identifying with the existing Jewish community. In fact, for Two Housers, their theology explicitly informs them that the Jews have nothing for them, at all.
Depends. Using Biltz as an example again, he is very sympathetic to Jewish people and their faith. He also uses many Hebrew/Biblical customs in his services.

You are missing my point, entirely. I'm not talking about accidental off-putting behavior. I'm talking about the clear and explicit teachings of HR leaders. They have no concern or regard for anything they identify as "Jewish". That's because they are locked into Two House theology, which tells them that "Judah" has nothing for "us Ephraimites".
Some maybe, and since you have more experience I'll say maybe even most. Just hasn't been my experience so far.

You may be surprised to hear that I agree with this completely. As I see it, there is a spectrum with three major sections--Judaism, Christianity, and Messianic Judaism. Between MJ and both Judaism and Christianity, there is a sort of no-man's land that has to be crossed. Regardless where one starts, there has to be an integration of certain elements from the other side.

But, as you say, some get stranded in this no-man's land. I believe this is a result of getting caught up in pointing fingers at everybody else's alleged "errors". At this point, I see HR not as the necessary transitional stage I experienced, but stepping off the spectrum, and creating its own identity. This essentially turns my linear spectrum into a triangle.
Why would I be surprised when someone agrees? LOL! (j/k)

Some probably get hung up in no-mans-land because of all the crap you have to wade through to get to the truth if you don't have a good MJ community to go to for help. It is easy to see how many fall prey to some outrageous, even cultish systems. But not everyone does, not even close. Most of us moved away from mainstream Christianity because we had enough discernment to know something was wrong. Most of us used that discernment, to varying degrees obviously, while we were looking.

I suppose what I am describing is the idea that one who leaves the two major Biblical-based religions has two possible solutions--1) Messianic Judaism, which welcomes the best of both worlds, and 2) Hebrew Roots, which rejects almost entirely the possibility that either Christianity or Judaism has anything worth preserving.
I'll quote Pastor Biltz here, "The Jews know in part, and we (gentiles) know in part- the first one to humble himself before Gd and meet Him in the middle wins! He gets it all!" So some HR folks do agree with you there.

You have completely misunderstood my comments, ... Keep trying. ...
LROL, sounds like something I might do! But I will keep on tryin'.

Dan C
 
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pat34lee

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Hebrew Roots organizations are extremely easy to identify, really. They almost always feature belief in Two House Theology or Sacred Name Use... or both! Their members tend to be extremely (overly) zealous for Shabbat and Kashrut. But like the Seventh Day Adventists, they tend to know little more than these couple of easily identifiable public aspects of Torah-based identity. And, above all, Hebrew Roots groups can be distinguished by their general animosity towards tradition of any kind. They are Lone Rangers, at heart.

Perhaps what confuses you is the fact that the anti-Jewish statements usually go along with anti-Church statements. I do not claim that they are not even-handed in their disdain for established communities. But, in the context of Messianic Judaism, they make it clear that they have no concern for identifying with the existing Jewish community. In fact, for Two Housers, their theology explicitly informs them that the Jews have nothing for them, at all.

You are missing my point, entirely. I'm not talking about accidental off-putting behavior. I'm talking about the clear and explicit teachings of HR leaders. They have no concern or regard for anything they identify as "Jewish". That's because they are locked into Two House theology, which tells them that "Judah" has nothing for "us Ephraimites".

I suppose what I am describing is the idea that one who leaves the two major Biblical-based religions has two possible solutions--1) Messianic Judaism, which welcomes the best of both worlds, and 2) Hebrew Roots, which rejects almost entirely the possibility that either Christianity or Judaism has anything worth preserving.

You have completely misunderstood my comments, then. I have been solely describing the distinctions between HR and MJ. I've said nothing about how either relates to the Jewish community, other than to note that HR explicitly rejects all Jewish tradition and culture.

I'm calling you on this. Please provide proof of the above statements by more than one fringe group. (Sub-groups of a main group do not count.) If it is so wide-spread as you seem to believe, this should not take long.
 
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yedida

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I watched several of his videos on YouTube about a year ago. After that, I had no more time for him. Perhaps his Orthodox mentor has taught him better now......

I listened to him around the first of this year when his and several other names popped up. He still sounds very 2-house to me, so I don't make a point of watching his show or videos.
 
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mishkan

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I'm calling you on this.

You're what??? Where do you think you are? The OK Corral? ROTFLOL!

Please provide proof of the above statements by more than one fringe group. (Sub-groups of a main group do not count.) If it is so wide-spread as you seem to believe, this should not take long.

Just read the website or watch the videos of any HR group--MIA, YATI, 119 Ministries, Jim Staley, Rico Cortes, etc. Staley does a fine job of making my case for me in his video that periodically makes the rounds, called "Identity Crisis". His whole point is to inoculate his audience with the lie that modern Jews are all descended from only the tribe of Judah, and that his Gentile audience can all assume that they are Ephraim. The whole point of Two House teaching is to give Gentiles an excuse to by-pass the Jewish people, and replace them as the people of God, claiming alleged promises to Ephraim as their own.

This is not hidden, secret, esoteric stuff. All I'm doing is reporting what these people openly teach. It is pervasive throughout the web sites and youtube videos. If you think I'm wrong, then you haven't been listening.
 
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yedida

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You're what??? Where do you think you are? The OK Corral? ROTFLOL!



Just read the website or watch the videos of any HR group--MIA, YATI, 119 Ministries, Jim Staley, Rico Cortes, etc. Staley does a fine job of making my case for me in his video that periodically makes the rounds, called "Identity Crisis". His whole point is to inoculate his audience with the lie that modern Jews are all descended from only the tribe of Judah, and that his Gentile audience can all assume that they are Ephraim. The whole point of Two House teaching is to give Gentiles an excuse to by-pass the Jewish people, and replace them as the people of God, claiming alleged promises to Ephraim as their own.

This is not hidden, secret, esoteric stuff. All I'm doing is reporting what these people openly teach. It is pervasive throughout the web sites and youtube videos. If you think I'm wrong, then you haven't been listening.

It's there, so evident to those who understand HR theology. Sadly, it just doesn't appear so pervasive to those going into that group. They are looking to become "the chosen," the special people that they totally usurp the blessings that Hashem intended for the Israelites, which became combined and are known today as the Jews. The teachings sound so simplistic that they don't see how divisive it is. And they certainly cannot see the anti-semitism that is underneath all those pretty words. It's insidious and very dangerous, for the one going into that movement and for the Jews they are attempting to replace....
 
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Avodat

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You're what??? Where do you think you are? The OK Corral? ROTFLOL!



Just read the website or watch the videos of any HR group--MIA, YATI, 119 Ministries, Jim Staley, Rico Cortes, etc. Staley does a fine job of making my case for me in his video that periodically makes the rounds, called "Identity Crisis". His whole point is to inoculate his audience with the lie that modern Jews are all descended from only the tribe of Judah, and that his Gentile audience can all assume that they are Ephraim. The whole point of Two House teaching is to give Gentiles an excuse to by-pass the Jewish people, and replace them as the people of God, claiming alleged promises to Ephraim as their own.

This is not hidden, secret, esoteric stuff. All I'm doing is reporting what these people openly teach. It is pervasive throughout the web sites and youtube videos. If you think I'm wrong, then you haven't been listening.

To be fair, he did it say it wouldn't take long to find the proof. :D
 
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pat34lee

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You're what??? Where do you think you are? The OK Corral? ROTFLOL!

Just read the website or watch the videos of any HR group--MIA, YATI, 119 Ministries, Jim Staley, Rico Cortes, etc. Staley does a fine job of making my case for me in his video that periodically makes the rounds, called "Identity Crisis". His whole point is to inoculate his audience with the lie that modern Jews are all descended from only the tribe of Judah, and that his Gentile audience can all assume that they are Ephraim. The whole point of Two House teaching is to give Gentiles an excuse to by-pass the Jewish people, and replace them as the people of God, claiming alleged promises to Ephraim as their own.

This is not hidden, secret, esoteric stuff. All I'm doing is reporting what these people openly teach. It is pervasive throughout the web sites and youtube videos. If you think I'm wrong, then you haven't been listening.

Its better than saying I think you are either badly misinterpreting other people or stretching the truth a wee bit (actually, not so wee.) I want quotes backing up your statements I highlighted in the earlier post. I have listened to most, if not all those you list here and have heard none of what you allege they teach.
 
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pat34lee

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It's there, so evident to those who understand HR theology. Sadly, it just doesn't appear so pervasive to those going into that group. They are looking to become "the chosen," the special people that they totally usurp the blessings that Hashem intended for the Israelites, which became combined and are known today as the Jews. The teachings sound so simplistic that they don't see how divisive it is. And they certainly cannot see the anti-semitism that is underneath all those pretty words. It's insidious and very dangerous, for the one going into that movement and for the Jews they are attempting to replace....

So you think you understand two house better than those who either teach it or study it? Your post shows that you don't know what is two house and what is something else.

Is it really anti-Semitic, to believe that the prophecies in the Tanakh are true? If you say that Ephraim (also a Semitic group) is basically gone, never to be heard from again, that puts you in the position of saying multiple prophecies concerning their return are all in error.
 
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yedida

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So you think you understand two house better than those who either teach it or study it? Your post shows that you don't know what is two house and what is something else.

Is it really anti-Semitic, to believe that the prophecies in the Tanakh are true? If you say that Ephraim (also a Semitic group) is basically gone, never to be heard from again, that puts you in the position of saying multiple prophecies concerning their return are all in error.

Ephraim gone? I never said that and if you think I did, it simply shows that you cannot read with understanding. But we've been thru this before too many times, so there's no reason to cover old ground again. Just don't go trying to make my words say what I did not say.
 
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pat34lee

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Ephraim gone? I never said that and if you think I did, it simply shows that you cannot read with understanding. But we've been thru this before too many times, so there's no reason to cover old ground again. Just don't go trying to make my words say what I did not say.

If you believe that the Northern Kingdom is mostly still dispersed among the nations and will one day return to join the Southern Kingdom to become one people, then you are a two houser. That is all that two house is. It is a single doctrine, like the virgin birth or trinity, not a theology that covers multiple doctrines.
 
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mishkan

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If you believe that the Northern Kingdom is mostly still dispersed among the nations and will one day return to join the Southern Kingdom to become one people, then you are a two houser. That is all that two house is. It is a single doctrine, like the virgin birth or trinity, not a theology that covers multiple doctrines.

Not true. You fail to recognize that all doctrinal positions travel in packages of implications and associations. There is no such thing as a single, unrelated idea. Especially when it alters such a fundamental idea.

The lie in Two House is that the tribes have ever been lost. There may be some who have traveled to remote, out of the way, locations. But the fact that they are unidentified to modern Westerners has nothing to do with being "lost".

God divorced the political entity called "Israel"--the national grouping composed of the ten tribes. Then he took Judah, composed originally of Judah and Benjamin, and restored the House of David to leadership. After the captivities in Assyria and Babylonia, every Hebrew was welcome to return home, along with the "rest of Israel".

"Rest of Israel" <--- key idea ignored by Two Housers and HR teachers.

Two House teachers that teach random audiences of Gentiles that "you are Ephraim" and "You can read the Bible, ignore 'Judah, the other brother', and make your own way" are teaching replacement theology. That's all there is to it. Some make this more explicit than others, but they all teach it, in one form or another.
 
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pat34lee

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Not true. You fail to recognize that all doctrinal positions travel in packages of implications and associations. There is no such thing as a single, unrelated idea. Especially when it alters such a fundamental idea.

The lie in Two House is that the tribes have ever been lost. There may be some who have traveled to remote, out of the way, locations. But the fact that they are unidentified to modern Westerners has nothing to do with being "lost".

God divorced the political entity called "Israel"--the national grouping composed of the ten tribes. Then he took Judah, composed originally of Judah and Benjamin, and restored the House of David to leadership. After the captivities in Assyria and Babylonia, every Hebrew was welcome to return home, along with the "rest of Israel".

Two House teachers that teach random audiences of Gentiles that "you are Ephraim" and "You can read the Bible, ignore 'Judah, the other brother', and make your own way" are teaching replacement theology. That's all there is to it. Some make this more explicit than others, but they all teach it, in one form or another.

So, do you think that the northern kingdom is still among the nations, and they retain their identity and tribal affiliations? I can see that for some, but not for the majority. Close to 3k years is a long time to pass down that kind of knowledge.

As long as Judah continues to reject Yeshua, why would we want to emulate them? Like those still in the churches, we should be showing them the way back, not following the blind.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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If you believe that the Northern Kingdom is mostly still dispersed among the nations and will one day return to join the Southern Kingdom to become one people, then you are a two houser. That is all that two house is. It is a single doctrine, like the virgin birth or trinity, not a theology that covers multiple doctrines.
The concept of doctrinal ideas being isolated is something that seems very difficult for a lot of people to understand at times.

Granted, it is often the case that, a single doctrine is never held in isolation from other doctrines, but rather is always part of a system or network of beliefs held by a person or group. ..with it being the case that sometimes that system of beliefs includes many doctrines which are orthodox as well as some which are heretical in a damaging sense. One example would be a religious group who might hold that the Bible is the Word of God, that there is only one God, that Jesus was born of a virgin and rose from the dead, and yet deny the deity of Jesus Christ. Such a group's belief system is heretical, even though it contains many true beliefs....and a group's heretical beliefs generally lead them to misunderstand or misapply even those true beliefs they do confess, since the beliefs tend to be interdependent /mutually affect one another.

Thus, it is imperative to always seek to sort out which beliefs in a system are actually heretical, which are not, and how the nonheretical beliefs are misapplied because of the heretical system in which they are held. ..if that system is herectical at all. With Two House, many of them (As you already know) have ideologies that are in the extreme (i.e. claiming all Gentiles are Ephraim, not liking Judah, saying the Jews are not truly God's people the way the Israelites are, etc.) and those things do damage to whatever accurate points are in place like understanding that Hebrews were scattered all over the world - many assimilating into Gentile culture - while God is reuniting groups that were disconnected on a greater level.

But to respond by condemning all aspects of Two House - or do guilt by association ideology would be illogical.. In example, suppose you lived in L.A - home to many gangs/gang-related activities (especially with Latinos or Asians as well as African-Americans). Someone may've experienced a bad encounter with some Latino gangs - but imagine if they ended up in dialouge with others who either worked with gangs or were outside of them but Latino. The person with the negative encounter said "I can't stand how Latinos are so prone to violence!!!!" - and someone else would say in response "Dude, not all Latinos are into gangs or for violence"...

If the response was "Well, I agree - by the way, those who do as you note aren't really Latinos - they're just good people"...then there'd no surprise whatsoever that others would then address it by saying that it is still backward to do such since one essentially says that nothing in Latino culture is good - and that whatever is in Latino culture that is good isn't really something that DEFINES them. The person arguing against that would be betraying themselves everytime they spoke in protest of others assuming more than what's present. And it'd be ludicrous for anyone to say "Oh - but I didn't mean YOU weren't a good person - I just meant the rest of your people."

Whenever one chooses to fail in researching/showing claims correct of ALL in a movement, they end up dealing in presenting bias already determined to show anything of a movement as a negative....the No true Scotsman fallacy where one, if faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, chooses to not deny the counterexample or reject the original universal claim...and instead modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule. In example, person A says "All Scotsmen enjoy haggis" - and person B says "My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn't like haggis!"...leading to person A saying "Well, all true Scotsmen like haggis."

There are better ways of dealing with issues than that...and with the issue of people in Two-House, there are many variations of such and that needs to be honored - just as others don't say ALL people in One-Law (i.e. claiming all Gentiles have to live as Jews in order to be acceptable to God) are somehow anti-semetic because of others who push Jews into second-class due to Gentiles feeling they love the Law more than Jewish people and should be equals on the issue.
 
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If you believe that the Northern Kingdom is mostly still dispersed among the nations and will one day return to join the Southern Kingdom to become one people, then you are a two houser. That is all that two house is. It is a single doctrine, like the virgin birth or trinity, not a theology that covers multiple doctrines.

It seems like a lot of what is in discussion was covered more in-depth and fully in the thread entitled the following:

If others have shared before where they stand and it is not understood then, I don't think it'd be reasonable to expect it'd be any different now. ...although there is agreement that anytime anti-semetic views are presented is never a good thing and that seems to be where most people have as a filter for why they don't want anything that has been associated with that (in this case, Two-House due to what others in the camp have done) - and I can see that. Had to deal with it recently when it came to others advocated for Ango-Israelism/British Israelism and claiming all manner of things in the name of America and Britain being like Manesseah and Ephraim (more discussed in the thread entitled Challenging the Eschatological View that America is God's New Israel ).
 
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yedida

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So, do you think that the northern kingdom is still among the nations, and they retain their identity and tribal affiliations? I can see that for some, but not for the majority. Close to 3k years is a long time to pass down that kind of knowledge.

As long as Judah continues to reject Yeshua, why would we want to emulate them? Like those still in the churches, we should be showing them the way back, not following the blind.

The Northern Kingdom was destroyed never to rise again - the politics, that is. The individuals are certainly alive and well. But they know who they are to one degree or another.
Every day people are learning that they have Jewish Heritage. They may learn that they belonged originally with the tribe of Naftali, or Gad. But when they walk out their door in the morning, they will walk out as a Jew and be proud of it! Jews encompass all the tribal lines. They are slowly becoming once again a unified body - called The Jews.
 
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Hoshiyya

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Every day people are learning that they have Jewish Heritage. They may learn that they belonged originally with the tribe of Naftali, or Gad. But when they walk out their door in the morning, they will walk out as a Jew and be proud of it! Jews encompass all the tribal lines. They are slowly becoming once again a unified body - called The Jews.

My 2 cents / perspective:
Jews are from Judah. Gadites are Gadites, Naftalim are Naftalim. The common denominator is the Covenant, which makes them Yisraelim.
 
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W

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What is the difference between Orthodox and Messianic Judaism? Only the theoretical acknowledgement of Yeshua, or anything more?
Not sure I understand the intent of your comment directed to Yedida. It sounds like you are asking her ...

"What is the difference between Messianic Judaism and Orthodox Judaism besides the theoretical acknowledgement of Yeshua as Messiah and deciding what to believe and not believe about the books of the New Testament/Covenant?"
Please clarify ... Thanks



 
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mishkan

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So, do you think that the northern kingdom is still among the nations, and they retain their identity and tribal affiliations?

I think that you are mixing up terminology and engaging in confusing anachronisms.

The Northern Kingdom only existed from approximately 930-722BCE. It was a political body founded by Solomon's servant. God divorced this body for its deliberate and conscious rejection of the True God.

The tribes that were scattered still know exactly who they are. Nobody has forgotten who their grandfather was.

I can see that for some, but not for the majority. Close to 3k years is a long time to pass down that kind of knowledge.

I'd see it the other way around. Those who stayed with the community would retain full and complete knowledge of their genealogy. It is only those who left the tribal community and went out to intermarry with Gentiles who would have been lost to the tribe.

As long as Judah continues to reject Yeshua, why would we want to emulate them? Like those still in the churches, we should be showing them the way back, not following the blind.

I'm confused by your use of the term "emulate". I don't emulate anybody. But I do study the wisdom of people much smarter than I, and engage the conversation.

Your comment about "the blind" demonstrates the standard latent anti-Semitism that sits at the core of all Christian theology.
 
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