mishkan, there are have two threads going simultaneously in which you are arguing against Hebrew Roots and for Messianic Judaism. You're like the common link. So I'm going to address you, and if this seems like I am picking you out for abuse I apologize. Not my intent. But you do make a good vehicle to make my points.
No problem. I am well aware that I sometimes make myself an easy target. But I have broad shoulders. I can take it.
Hebrew Roots is so fragmented I find it difficult to peg them in one bundle. I think you have to assess each organization and even individual on their own merits. Even then, you usually have to think about, research and use discernment with most of what they tell you (good advice with anyone, btw).
I am a systems analyst by trade. And while I agree that treating individuals as individuals is always a good practice, I also have no problem identifying commonalities, as well as the differences. One must look for trends and 90% solutions, and not get caught up in the details.
Hebrew Roots organizations are extremely easy to identify, really. They almost always feature belief in Two House Theology or Sacred Name Use... or both! Their members tend to be extremely (overly) zealous for Shabbat and Kashrut. But like the Seventh Day Adventists, they tend to know little more than these couple of easily identifiable public aspects of Torah-based identity. And, above all, Hebrew Roots groups can be distinguished by their general animosity towards tradition of any kind. They are Lone Rangers, at heart.
I do not see that they distance themselves from the Jewish community, however.
Perhaps what confuses you is the fact that the anti-Jewish statements usually go along with anti-Church statements. I do not claim that they are not even-handed in their disdain for established communities. But, in the context of Messianic Judaism, they make it clear that they have no concern for identifying with the existing Jewish community. In fact, for Two Housers, their theology explicitly informs them that the Jews have nothing for them, at all.
Jews do not accept non-Jews, or Jews who have accepted Yeshua. They don't even really accept Jews who were raised Jewish but had the unfortunate circumstance of being born to a Jewish Holocaust survivor and a gentile mother.
That's a different issue.
I see this "distance" as being one sided, from the Jewish perspective and not any attempt by the HR folk.
You have to pay more attention to the HR statements regarding their relationship to what they disdainfully refer to as "Judah, the other brother".
Now, this isn't to say that we all, both HR and MJ, don't do things that are offensive to them; and maybe some HR people do more than most MJ. I'd cede part of your point based on this.
You are missing my point, entirely. I'm not talking about accidental off-putting behavior. I'm talking about the clear and explicit teachings of HR leaders. They have no concern or regard for anything they identify as "Jewish". That's because they are locked into Two House theology, which tells them that "Judah" has nothing for "us Ephraimites".
I think a lot of HR is simply looking, and some forgot to use that discernment thing I mentioned. Many have gone off down a rabbit trail and maybe even fell into the hole. But many haven't.
You may be surprised to hear that I agree with this completely. As I see it, there is a spectrum with three major sections--Judaism, Christianity, and Messianic Judaism. Between MJ and both Judaism and Christianity, there is a sort of no-man's land that has to be crossed. Regardless where one starts, there has to be an integration of certain elements from the other side.
But, as you say, some get stranded in this no-man's land. I believe this is a result of getting caught up in pointing fingers at everybody else's alleged "errors". At this point, I see HR not as the necessary transitional stage I experienced, but stepping off the spectrum, and creating its own identity. This essentially turns my linear spectrum into a triangle.
I suppose what I am describing is the idea that one who leaves the two major Biblical-based religions has two possible solutions--1) Messianic Judaism, which welcomes the best of both worlds, and 2) Hebrew Roots, which rejects almost entirely the possibility that either Christianity or Judaism has anything worth preserving.
You speak of MJ as if they have none of these tendencies or shortcomings themselves. I have been getting out and talking to people around the country here, and I assure you this is not the case. Let's start with those religion icons- Trinitarian or Non Trinitarian. I won't argue who is right, but I think you'd agree that this is a huge divisive issue in MJ. There are other things, like wearing tzitzit on belt loops, that some MJ adheres to that even I find a bit offensive, truth be told.
Personally, I consider myself to be MJ, but I still also identify with myself as a Christian as well. I worship in a mainstream church, and am active there, even though we have some major disagreements. I also still get a lot from the HR side.
You have completely misunderstood my comments, then. I have been solely describing the distinctions between HR and MJ. I've said nothing about how either relates to the Jewish community, other than to note that HR explicitly rejects all Jewish tradition and culture.
When you start talking in absolutes about people and religions I think you are in trouble right off. That's not to say there aren't absolutes within religions, especially Judaism and Christianity. My guess is you aren't thinking of MJ as a whole here, but rather your own branch of MJ. I don't find it that cohesive a group, truth be told.
Keep trying. Maybe after reading this post you'll understand why, in my view, this whole final paragraph of yours is completely misdirected.
