Corona Virus, God's perspective, and human psychology

John Helpher

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Hi all. I was reading through some news articles and found one about Trump meeting with the leaders of various professional sports leagues. I'll paste the text relevant to my topic here:

“They want to get back. They gotta get back. They can't do this,” Trump said later Saturday at a media briefing. “Their sports weren't designed for it. The whole concept of our nation wasn't designed for it. We're gonna have to get back. We want to get back soon.”

If it’s possible, of course. If it’s safe. If it doesn’t undermine all the work and loss and sacrifice done so far.

And that’s the problem.

Everyone wants a return to normal. Trump isn't wrong. No one is wrong for wanting such things. Unfortunately, wanting it isn’t enough.

Professional sports aren’t just big business, with billions and billions in direct economic impact stretching across the country. They’re an important entertainment distraction for a public that with each day grows more isolated and more weary of the relentless battle we are dealing with.

Elsewhere I've suggested that perhaps the coronavirus is one semi-final attempt to get people thinking beyond their normal, day-to-day routines; to think about the purpose and value of their lives and where it's all ultimately leading; to question their pursuit of the daily grind, their dependence on materialism, and their seeming belief that money really is what makes the world go round.

As the article states, everyone wants things to go back to normal; going to sporting events, going to the movies, dinner dates, concerts, shopping, buying, selling, planting, building, marrying and giving in marriage, etc. All normal, everyday events and practices.

But notice just how similar this kind of thinking is to the criticisms Jesus made against Sodom and the people of Noah's day. He did not criticize them for sexual immorality (though certainly that sin was there). He did not criticize them for homosexuality (though that certainly was an issue). The reasons he gave for why God destroyed them were buying and selling, planting, building, marrying etc, and he said it would be much the same in the last days. (Luke 17:26-30)

It's not that these things are wrong in themselves, but rather that the people had stopped caring about what God wanted. They had become so wrapped up in their day to day affairs of business-as-usual that they no longer behaved, let alone considered God, in a way consistent with God's values. The video below illustrates these points in a pretty interesting way and I'd like to hear what others think.

 
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OldWiseGuy

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Modern 'stadium' sporting events are just like the Roman games but without the bloodletting. I enjoy them but watch them on tv. When in high school I went to our games but spent most of the time yucking it up with my friends or trying to meet girls from the other school.
 
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Al Touthentop

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But notice just how similar this kind of thinking is to the criticisms Jesus made against Sodom and the people of Noah's day. He did not criticize them for sexual immorality (though certainly that sin was there). He did not criticize them for homosexuality (though that certainly was an issue). The reasons he gave for why God destroyed them were buying and selling, planting, building, marrying etc, and he said it would be much the same in the last days. (Luke 17:26-30)

That is not at all what that passage is expressing. That passage is expressing that people went along in their lives even knowing that a catastrophe, judgement, was about to happen. Nowhere does it say that the reason they were judged is because of their normal activity. This was about their lack of belief that something was coming, not the reason they were judged. He was explaining this to his disciples and comparing it to the coming destruction of Jerusalem, that it would be like that time. And just like with the destruction of Jerusalem, they were warned. Lot warned them and tried to find even 10 people who were righteous and could be saved.

This passage is not a criticism of those people but a comparison to how it was going to be for those who didn't heed his warning about the coming judgement against Jerusalem.

Corona virus is NOT God's judgement on the world.

What Jesus taught about the world's catastrophes was that unless you repent, the result of any catastrophe ends in your condemnation. Your sins are not being judged resulting in bad things that happen to you. But unless you repent, you will have lost all opportunity to do that.

We know that there is one day of judgement - the Last Day. If we haven't repented and fall off a ladder, have a heart attack or succumb to the effects of covid-19, we've missed our window. There are no more chances afterward. But it isn't BECAUSE we haven't repented that we are killed. We were warned.
 
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John Helpher

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This was about their lack of belief that something was coming, not the reason they were judged.

A major factor in the corona virus spreading so quickly and so far was that people did not want to stop their day-to-day routines. They had concerts to go to, places to visit, beach parties to attend, meetings and functions, shopping and various projects in which to participate.

There was plenty of evidence that a problem was coming. China had over 60 million people on lock-down, something that has never happened in our world before. Even now, politicians around the world are itching to relent on the social distancing guidelines to get life back to the normal, day-to-day activities which will keep money flowing.

This is exactly what Jesus referred to. The people of Noah's day had warning. You don't notice the building of what amounts to a full scale replica of the titanic in someone's backyard without asking a few questions. They had warning; they just didn't care. They had stuff to do.

And Jesus said it'd be like that in the last days. Certainly that's what we're seeing with this corona virus, with so many people wanting life to just go back to the good old days when they could buy and sell, plant and build, and whatever else without any distraction from their creator getting in the way of considering what's really important in life.
 
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Al Touthentop

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A major factor in the corona virus spreading so quickly and so far was that people did not want to stop their day-to-day routines. .

No it wasn't a factor as South Korea has proven. The virus is spread by people who have the virus coming into contact with people. But it wasn't necessary to shut down the entire country to protect the majority. They still went about their routines and those who were found to have the virus were interviewed extensively and even provided bank and phone records (GPS) so that people they came into contact with could be themselves tested and quarantined if necessary.

It is not useful or necessary to quarantine the whole world, "just in case." Thousands of volunteers manned drive-through testing facilities and rather than limit this activity to "qualified" or "credentialed" people, the government welcomed and promoted its citizens to help.

They allocated about 10 billion dollars in preventative strategies.

The US has, on the other hand, instituted draconian, useless measures and as a result has initially allocated 4 TRILLION dollars to "fix" the mess they created as a result of those measures.

None of this has a thing to do with that passage in Luke. We're not being judged and sent a virus to punish us.
 
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John Helpher

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No it wasn't a factor as South Korea has proven.

That's because they acted quickly and decisively. They had drive-thru testing while the leadership in the U.S. was claiming the virus would miraculously disappear. They were promoting the use of masks while other countries (like the U.S., Canada, and even the WHO) were saying masks weren't effective (except for those who were already sick). S.Korea was a gold standard example who practiced testing, masking-wearing, and social distancing very early on.

But it wasn't necessary to shut down the entire country to protect the majority.

Because those normal, day to day activities are super important, right?

It is not useful or necessary to quarantine the whole world, "just in case."

Look around, bro. We're way, way past "just in case".

The US has, on the other hand, instituted draconian, useless measures and as a result has initially allocated 4 TRILLION dollars to "fix" the mess they created as a result of those measures.

None of this has a thing to do with that passage in Luke. We're not being judged and sent a virus to punish us.

Sure it does. If the U.S. had not put such a high priority on continuing with those normal, day-to-day activities, the virus spread and severity would not be nearly so high.
 
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Amittai

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I loved the accents, the hairdos, streetscapes & the rap at the end!

Some recovering alcholics I know have learned to take life on life's terms, a day or half a day at a time. God knows the unpredictability ahead. He wants us to lay hold of virtues as a toolkit which will take time to do.

To trust Him means to not attach inflexibly to our own system or the world's (and I'm not as it happens referring to the social distancing with that).

This is why thoughtfulness especially as to God's core values which are not image-based (an aspect that could have been given a little more time) is what churches should concentrate on, and not triumphalism or complacency.

I like what was said above as warnings. Warnings are always to the church first. There were some in Noah's and Abraham's time that considered themselves church.

When the church for example genuinely lives "in the day" it will give an example which might inspire outsiders.
 
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This is too big for Trump, and the country is too innoculated from the 'God-virus' so they pooh-pooh and mock any leader pointing us back to seeking the God of Scriptures.
Once again MAGA (Make America Great Again) needs to be changed to (Seek Almighty God Again).
 
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John Helpher

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I loved the accents, the hairdos, streetscapes & the rap at the end!

Some recovering alcholics I know have learned to take life on life's terms, a day or half a day at a time. God knows the unpredictability ahead. He wants us to lay hold of virtues as a toolkit which will take time to do.

To trust Him means to not attach inflexibly to our own system or the world's (and I'm not as it happens referring to the social distancing with that).

This is why thoughtfulness especially as to God's core values which are not image-based (an aspect that could have been given a little more time) is what churches should concentrate on, and not triumphalism or complacency.

Thanks for sharing those thoughtful comments, Amittai. :)
 
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Al Touthentop

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Because those normal, day to day activities are super important, right?

Those normal day to day activities result in housing, food and clothing for those who perform them. Apparently you would rather they cease doing that to allay your unfounded fears. My guess is that your livelihood has not been affected and so it's perfectly fine to demand that other people have their own lives disrupted. If that's not the case, I apologize in advance.

Sure it does. If the U.S. had not put such a high priority on continuing with those normal, day-to-day activities, the virus spread and severity would not be nearly so high.

The US suspended normal activities, they didn't continue them. You are spewing this theory with no regard for the timeline. South Korea found a way to allow normal activities to continue (and therefore the health of the majority was preserved, including housing, food and clothing). The US could have responded similarly but instead put six million people out of work in just the first week after its governors shut down those activities. Many of those people will now be in jeopardy of becoming homeless.

The virus has nothing at all to do with people being judged for their sins. By that logic, South Korea is wrong in its reaction because they allowed normal activity to continue.
 
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John Helpher

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Those normal day to day activities result in housing, food and clothing for those who perform them.

Like I said, neither I (nor Jesus) said those things are inherently wrong. The wrong comes when we become complacent with those things and stop thinking about what God wants. Nothing should come before God, and that must include even the most basic necessities like food, clothing, and shelter, but we tend to think that because these things are so normal and basic that there's never a problem with indulging in and chasing after them.


Nowhere does it say that the reason they were judged is because of their normal activity. This was about their lack of belief that something was coming

This passage is not a criticism of those people

There's a contradiction here. On the one hand you say these people lacked a belief that something was coming, but that Jesus' comments regarding this lack of belief was not a criticism against them. Of course he was criticizing them for lacking belief (a.k.a. not caring) that something was coming. Jesus regularly rebuked people for their stubborn unbelief.

This contradiction is irrational, which is usually the result of trying to explain-away the good sense in what Jesus said. In other words, because Jesus' arguments are rational, attempts to explain them away will necessary be irrational.
 
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Douggg

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The reasons he gave for why God destroyed them were buying and selling, planting, building, marrying etc, and he said it would be much the same in the last days. (Luke 17:26-30)
God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for it's homosexuality and forced homosexuality, them of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to do to the two strangers (the angels) who were Lot's guests.

All of the cities of the were buying and selling, planting, building, marrying etc. - but God did not destroy them.
 
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John Helpher

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God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for it's homosexuality and forced homosexuality, them of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to do to the two strangers (the angels) who were Lot's guests.

If that were the case, then Jesus would have said so. Instead, he listed all these normal, every-day activities. Explaining away why he listed these activities seems to be exactly the reason why he listed them in the first place; we don't want to think about how even the most basic, mundane activities fit in with God's will for our lives. It's far more convenient to just assume that God has no problem with our building projects, how we spend our money, who we marry what or when we eat, or any number of other activities.

Check out this reference from Ezekiel 16 for confirmation.

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

Perhaps it's possible that "committed abomination" is a reference to homosexuality, but, based on the context, it's more likely a summing up that all the previously mentioned behaviors together constitute abominable behavior.

The idea that Sodom was destroyed for homosexuality also doesn't line up with Jesus referencing the Days of Noah in the exact same context (i.e. that they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, etc). No, it's tempting for Christians to believe the problem was all about homosexuality because Christians (in general) do not struggle with homosexuality as a problem ( I realize some Christians do, but they would be more so the exception). It's easy to point to the problems of others and feel a sense of superiority in putting them down.

But when it comes to something like greed and how greed permeates our normal, day-to-day activities, we'd rather not think about that. We'd rather explain away any accountability to God in that area because accountability to God in these various activities may just result in him telling us not to do the things we want to do.

Perhaps God does not want that man to marry that woman, regardless of how passionately they may feel toward one another. Maybe God does not want you to plant that crop, start that business, buy those shoes, take that vacation, or whatever it may be.

The complacency that comes with just assuming everything we do is okay with God is what he hates most, especially when we then go to church on Sunday and thank him for all our blessings.
 
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Al Touthentop

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There's a contradiction here. On the one hand you say these people lacked a belief that something was coming, but that Jesus' comments regarding this lack of belief was not a criticism against them.

It wasn't. It was a comparison of the times. Just like back then, the events he was foretelling (and scripture foretold long before) the people of Jerusalem would be going about their business and the judgement would come. He's not saying that it was anything about this normal day to day activity that caused the judgement to come upon them. That's the error. This passage isn't a complaint.

Of course he was criticizing them for lacking belief (a.k.a. not caring) that something was coming. Jesus regularly rebuked people for their stubborn unbelief.

He did. But he had already criticized them for what was bringing down that judgement. This isn't that. It has nothing at all to do with the REASON this catastrophe was coming, but how surprising it would be to those who did not heed his warnings. You claimed that this passage was about WHY the coming judgement was happening and then tried to bogusly connect their day to day activities (business as usual) with Corona virus.

This contradiction is irrational, which is usually the result of trying to explain-away the good sense in what Jesus said. In other words, because Jesus' arguments are rational, attempts to explain them away will necessary be irrational.

There is no contradiction. Here's Jesus ACTUALLY criticizing the people in Jerusalem.

34 Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
 
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Al Touthentop

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"God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for it's homosexuality and forced homosexuality, them of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to do to the two strangers (the angels) who were Lot's guests."

If that were the case, then Jesus would have said so.

Jesus did say so at the time. Everyone knew why Sodom and Gommorah was destroyed and it had nothing to do with them going about their normal living activities but with the fact that they had become so corrupt they would have raped the very angels sent by God.

To say that this wasn't the reason is to totally reject the scripture that says this is the case. But it wasn't the only reason. God actually puts their lack of love for their neighbor as the real issue. The sexual immorality was a symptom (and sin of course) of this lack of love.

Ezekiel 16:49-50 ESV
Behold, this was the guilt (Jerusalem) of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.
 
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John Helpher

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Jesus did say so at the time.

Everyone knew why Sodom and Gommorah was destroyed

Here's another contradiction. You've equated "everyone knew why" with "Jesus said so". Those two aren't the same thing. Sure, it was common for people to think homosexuality was the real problem with Sodom and the days of Noah, but Jesus knew better. He wanted them to understand there was a deeper problem, a problem not limited to only one class of people (i.e. homosexuals).

It's easy for us to point to this one group of people and think, "I'm glad I'm not like those people", but Jesus wanted us to look deeper. That's what you're struggling with right now. If Jesus really did want us to reconsider the way we use our time, even with these apparently normal, mundane activities, then that could mean significant changes for you or anyone else who does so. And we humans tend not to like change which impinges on our various freedoms. It's easier to pretend that it was homosexuals Jesus was really annoyed with.
 
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Douggg

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If that were the case, then Jesus would have said so. Instead, he listed all these normal, every-day activities. Explaining away why he listed these activities seems to be exactly the reason why he listed them in the first place; we don't want to think about how even the most basic, mundane activities fit in with God's will for our lives. It's far more convenient to just assume that God has no problem with our building projects, how we spend our money, who we marry what or when we eat, or any number of other activities.
John, you are mixing apples and oranges.

Yes, it will be business as usual at the time the Day of the Lord begins. But the Sodom and Gomorah part is that there will also be rampant homosexuality at that time.
 
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John Helpher

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But the Sodom and Gomorah part is that there will also be rampant homosexuality at that time.

Except, that's not the problem Jesus described. That's an interpretation you're putting onto his words. It's like you're saying, "Nah Jesus, you don't understand. Homosexuality was the real problem. There's no problem with buying and selling, silly".
 
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Douggg

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Except, that's not the problem Jesus described. That's an interpretation you're putting onto his words. It's like you're saying, "Nah Jesus, you don't understand. Homosexuality was the real problem. There's no problem with buying and selling, silly".
John, there is nothing inherently wrong with buying and selling.

In the parable of using resources, the good servant used his resources wisely taking what he had been given and "traded" with them, i.e. buying and selling.

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

So there is nothing inherently wrong with buying and selling.

________________________________________________________________________

Regarding the application to the time of Jesus's Return and the great tribulation that will come upon the earth. It will be business as usual, marrying, buying and selling... in other words the world will be at ease... as the world will be caught off guard.

In 1Thessalonians5:3 there is additional information, the world will be saying peace and safety, when suddenly destruction comes.

It does not say why the world will be saying peace and safety, but from other information - it will be because the world will be thinking it has entered the messianic age, following Gog/Magog. And will be thinking that the Antichrist is the messiah.

________________________________________________________________________

On top of those things, there is indication when all of this going to happen - the generation.

In Luke 21:34-36, which is about the Rapture....

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Verse 34 is what I am basing my "anytime" rapture (right below my screen-name to the left) view on. Verse 35 is the beginning of the Day of the Lord, and great tribulation. Verse 36 is the escaping all those things that are going to come to pass. Which is in this generation.
 
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John Helpher

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John, there is nothing inherently wrong with buying and selling.

But, what does that have to do with people becoming so caught up in their day-to-day lives that they stop thinking about what God wants?
 
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