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A-Mil Only Corinthians and the Millennium

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Andrewn, Oct 21, 2021.

  1. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Regarding eschatology, the Nicene Creed says about the Lord Jesus Christ:

    "And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end. . . . I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come."

    As an Amillennialist, I believe in one General Resurrection of Christians and non-Christians at the 2nd coming of Christ. But I was reading through 1Co 15:22-28 and it shows that the order of the resurrection of the body to be as follows:

    1) Christ himself is the firstfruits, He was first to be raised; then

    2) at Christ's 2nd coming, those who belong to Him; then

    3) non-Christians will be raised at the end, after sin has come to an end. Only then can death be destroyed, because it is the 'wages of sin' (Rom 6:23).

    Any comments about the separation of the 2nd and 3rd groups?
     
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  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    "And He will come again with glory to judge the living and dead. His kingdom shall have no end. . . . I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come."

    I think almost all Christians agree with that statement
     
  3. bniffty

    bniffty New Member

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    Hi Andrewn and nice to meet you. I dont know what the nicene creed is or why it matters , all I know is what the thief on the cross next to jesus asked , and that was that he remember him when he comes into his kingdom , and jesus said you will be with me in paradise..

    No creeds or rules or any other stuff.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
  4. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Perhaps I confused the issue by mentioning the Nicene Creed, so I will restate my question.

    My understanding is that pre-Millennialists believe that Christians are resurrected at the 2nd coming and non-Christians after the Millennium.

    OTOH, Amils believe that both groups are resurrected at the 2nd coming of Christ.

    But 1Co 15:22-28 seems to support 2 separate resurrections.

    So, my question is: How do Amils understand this passage?
     
  5. bniffty

    bniffty New Member

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    Does it really matter , what is is what is and what happens is what happens.
     
  6. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    There is definitely an order and 2 distinct resurrections. It could happen real quick. After all, the elect are changed in 1/20ths of a second (the twinkling of an eye). That leaves another 19/20ths of that second for the wicked. Of course, it may take longer. But God can do a lot in seconds.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
  7. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Thx for the answer. Would you elaborate on the sequence in v. 24-28 according to mAil belief?
     
  8. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 15:12-14, 21-24, asking, “how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain…But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming [Gr. parousia]. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

    The “coming” of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.
     
  9. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 15:20-28 says: “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For (or gar or seeing) since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For (or gar or seeing) as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ (present active subjunctive) the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For (or gar or seeing) he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For (or gar or seeing) ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

    Death is destroyed at the second coming, the time here denoted as “the end.” As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. This passage is distinctly a description of the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be termination of all rebellion. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His Coming”).

    The usage of the word “for” in this reading simply tells us that what follows is a deduction drawn from what has previously been stated. The 4 uses of the word “for” (or gar or seeing) in this reading demonstrates (in all cases) what is being spoken of is an inference to what has just been stated. In this particular passage, the Greek word gar links and then further expands upon the fact that the Second Advent is the time “when he (Christ) shall have (finally) put down all rule and all authority and power.” The Greek word ‘gar’, which interprets and carries the same meaning as our English word “for” is used as a key constituent part of the previous statement or subject matter, to simply allocate a fuller enlargement or reinforcement of the matter just mentioned. The word is mainly used for the purpose of argument, explanation or intensification.

    In the case of this passage, the four references to gar connect and further develop the solemn truth of the fall of man and the blessed truth and present reality of Christ’s current heavenly reign over every enemy. Moreover, after clearly telling us that the parousia is “the end” and that it unquestionably corresponds with the all-consummating delivering up of “the kingdom to God,” and with the point “when he shall have (finally) put down all rule and all authority and power” the Holy Spirit simply explains that “he (Christ) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Of course, Scripture makes it abundantly clear that Christ’s rule over His enemies is a present reality that will be finally concluded at the appearance of Christ.

    As you well know: there is no 1,000 yrs mentioned (or recognized) in this passage. You have to force it into the sacred text. It rather demonstrates (like the rest of Scripture) that the end is the end and that it comes at the return of Christ.
    statement or subject matter, to simply allocate a fuller enlargement or reinforcement
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    As a Pre-mill I know that your statement above is true of me. So that is two separate resurrections.

    Agreed and Rev 20 also speaks of the first resurrection and then another one after the 1000 years are completed.

    Good point.
     
  11. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Destroys 'the unjust' or resurrects 'the unjust?'

    "when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power." Do you take this to mean every unjust person who is alive at the 2nd coming? Are they killed first then resurrected a moment later?

    Your explanation is very comprehensive. Only the above point needs further explanation. You're probably getting the idea of destroying 'the unjust' from Revelation, but in Revelation it can be understood figuratively and the rulership, authority, and power mentioned in 1Co can refer to spiritual realities, no?

    This is the only question I can think of now :).
     
  12. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Your version is quite unique in that the Millennial reign of Christ and saints takes place in heaven. Towards the end of the Millennium, the unjust are resurrected on earth only to have a rebellion against Christ. Right?
     
  13. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    There is so much Scripture (in my opinion) that shows the destruction of the wicked at the end. To understand it otherwise would be to render the sacred text meaningless.

    Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

    I take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

    Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    I take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

    Malachi 4:1 says, For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up.

    I take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

    Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

    I tend to take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

    For example, I Thessalonians 5:2-3: the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

    I take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

    II Thessalonians 1:7-10 says, the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

    I take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

    2 Peter 3:10-13 supports this, saying, "the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

    I take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!


    Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear,

    And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

    Verses 17-18 says, I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

    I take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

    Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

    I take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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  14. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes. That is what is described in Revelation 20:9-15. The ones who number "as the sand of the sea" (Rev 20:8) will be physically destroyed by the fire that comes down from heaven and will then be resurrected, along with "the rest of the dead" (Rev 20:5) to face judgment and they will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

    And, as sovereign grace showed, there are several scripture passages which show the living unjust/unsaved/wicked all being physically destroyed at His second coming.
     
  15. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus made it very clear that there is a singular hour/time coming when literally all of the dead, saved and lost, will be raised.

    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Premils have sometimes tried to do a "gotcha" on us Amils by showing how it would be impossible for everyone to be raised at the same exact time since believers will be resurrected right at the moment Christ arrives from heaven and we will be caught up to Him "in the air" (1 Thess 4:13-17). Obviously, the wicked dead can't all be resurrected right at that same moment because some of them would still be alive on the earth at that point.

    But, Amils do not actually believe that all of the dead will be resurrected at the same exact moment. We believe that the dead in Christ will be raised and caught up to Christ and then Christ will destroy the living lost/wicked and then all of the dead lost/wicked will be raised.

    If the amount of time it takes for us all to be changed (1 Cor 15:51-52) is any indication, then I think it's likely that all of this will happen quickly. So, generally speaking, all of the dead, including all of the saved and lost who are dead, will be resurrected at the same time even if not the same exact moment.

    What is clear to me is that Premil can't make any sense at all of passages like John 5:28-29. In their view, there are two (or more) hours/times coming when the dead will be raised, but Jesus said there is only one hour/time coming when all of the dead will be raised.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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  16. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Excellent post. Very well said. The evidence for complete global destruction of all the unsaved/wicked at His second coming is truly overwhelming. How can anyone deny it? It boggles my mind. And Premils think they are the literalists and we Amils spiritualize or symbolize everything. :rolleyes:
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    That is true on both counts.

    1. My view (the view of the SDA denomination) is very unique in that regard (in fact unique in the extreme)
    2. and also the lost are raised in the second resurrection according to Rev 20 - they gather to wage war against the camp of the saints -- but instead of getting their much hoped for war - what they get is the great white throne judgment. Each person judged by works/deed as Rev 20 and Rom 2 points (and also 2 Cor 5 makes that point) and then cast into the lake of fire.

    This is the only option that I know of in all the various options - where it would even matter if you knew the truth about it before the end simply reveals it to be the case or not. But interesting enough - it is also true of the flood that not knowing about the real deal ahead of time "would matter". And it is also true the Jews of John's day - not getting the message about Christ as Messiah in time would have very bad consequences for the nation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
  18. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    I had no idea that my question about 1Co 15 would lead us into this subject. But this is probably for the best. I don't have much time, now, and will just mention quick thoughts and may have to fine tune them later.

    Immediately after Pentecost, the Apostle Peter mentioned that Joel 2:28-32 had been fulfilled. Thus it should be obvious, IMO, that that the rest of the prophecies were soon to be fulfilled and indeed it was in 70 AD.

    I'm not a preterits, certainly not a full preterist. But I believe the book of Revelation is an epistle sent specifically to 7 churches in Asia Minor and it addresses their concerns and their then ongoing persecution.

    This is my frame of thought even though I haven't addressed all your references.
     
  19. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    I am curious, what has Joel 2:28-32 to do with the second coming and "the last (or final) day"? That passage is simply confirming the ongoing fulfillment of "the last days" period that was ushered in at the First Advent and will conclude at the climactic second coming and "the last (or final) day." The reality is: "the last days" are synonymous with the Messianic reign of Christ.

    Of course, Revelation was sent and relevant to the churches it was written to. But, like all Scripture, it also has a broad ongoing relevance to the Church generally during the intra-Advent period. Multiple times, the writer refers to the second coming. There are distinct parallels that all end with a climactic return of Jesus. This supports the consistent record of the prophets, Jesus and the NT writers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
  20. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    As you know, Amils believe that the Millennium has already started with the 1st coming of Christ and the saints already reign with Him in heaven. There is some similarity with your view except for the obvious difference in timing.

    Again, there is partial agreement with Amils.

    How so?
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
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