Copycat thesis is not taken as credible by scholars or Historians

[Daniel Marsh]

Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

This new thread has the anti Birthday and Christmas threads in mind.

Redeeming Christian Holy Days: Brumalia in the Roman Republic
Redeeming Christian Holy Days: Brumalia in the Roman Republic | Steadfast Lutherans

 

[Daniel Marsh]

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The dates of Saturnalia (and Sigillaria!) and Christmas
Posted on December 18, 2010 by Tom
Yesterday we looked at Macrobius’s account of the origin of the Festival of Saturnalia to see if it’s origins influenced Christmas, as some claim. Macrobius gave several different stories and none of them seem to have anything to do with the birth of anyone. Now Saturnalia occurred in the month of December, but did it occur on December 25, or as the Romans would say Eight days before the Kalends of January?

the following is taken from Saturnalia Book 1.10.1-23 and I give the entire chapter, but I will bold the most important parts. This is taken from the Davies translation (1969).

[ 1 ] But to return to our account of the Saturnalia. It was held to an offense against religion to begin a war at the time of the Saturnalia, and to punish a criminal during the days of the festival called for an act of atonement. [2] Our ancestors restricted the Saturnalia to a single day, the fourteenth before the Kalends of January, but, after Gaius Caesar had added two days to December, the day on which the festival was held became the sixteenth before the Kalends of January, with the result that, since the exact day was not commonly known—some observing the addition which Caesar had made to the calendar and others following the old usage —the festival came to be regarded as lasting for more days than one.
And yet in fact among the men of old time there were some who supposed that the Saturnalia lasted for seven days (if one may use the word “suppose” of something which has the support of competent authorities); [3] for Novius, that excellent writer of Atellan plays, says: “Long awaited they come, the seven days of the Saturnalia” [Ribbeck, II, 328]; and Mummius too, who, after Novius and Pomponius, restored the long-neglected Atellan to favor, says: “Of the many excellent institutions of our ancestors this is the best—that they made the seven days of the Saturnalia begin when the weather is coldest” [Ribbeck, II, 332].
[4] Mallius, however, says that the men who, as I have already related, had found protection in the name of Saturn and in the awe which he inspired, ordained a three-day festival in honor of the god, calling it the Saturnalia, and that it was on the authority of this belief that Augustus, in his laws for the administration of justice, ordered the three days to be kept as rest days.
[5] Masurius and others believed that the Saturnalia were held on one day, the fourteenth day before the Kalends of January, and their opinion is corroborated by Fenestella when he says that the virgin Aemilia was condemned on the fifteenth day before the Kalends of January; for, had that day been a day on which the festival of the Saturnalia was being celebrated, she could not by any means have been called on to plead, [6] and he adds that “the day was the day which preceded the Saturnalia,” and then goes on to say that “on the day after that, namely, the thirteenth day before the Kalends of January, the virgin Licinia was to plead,” thereby making it clear that the thirteenth day too was not a festival.
[ 7 ] On the twelfth day before the Kalends of January there is a rest day in honor of the goddess Angeronia, to whom the pontiffs offer sacrifice in the chapel of Volupia. According to Verrius Flac-cus, this goddess is called Angeronia because, duly propitiated, she banishes anxiety (angores) and mental distress. [8] Masurius adds that an image of this goddess, with the mouth bound up and sealed,1 is placed on the altar of Volupia, because all who conceal their pain and care find, thanks to their endurance, great joy (voluptas) at last. [9] According to Julius Modestus, however, sacrifices are offered to Angeronia because, pursuant to the fulfillment of a vow, she delivered the Roman people from the disease known as the quinsy (angina).
[10] The eleventh day before the Kalends of January is a rest day in honor of the Lares, for whom the praetor Aemilius Regillus in the war against Antiochus solemnly promised to provide a temple in the Campus Martius.
[11] The tenth day before the Kalends is a rest day in honor of Jupiter, called the Larentinalia. I should like to say something of this day, and here are the beliefs generally held about it.
[12] In the reign of Ancus, they say, a sacristan of the temple of Hercules, having nothing to do during the rest day challenged the god to a game of dice, throwing for both players himself, and the stake for which they played was a dinner and the company of a courtesan. [13] Hercules won, and so the sacristan shut up Acca Larentia in the temple (she was the most notable courtesan of the time) and the dinner with her. Next day the woman let it be known that the god as a reward for her favors had bidden her take advantage of the first opportunity that came to her on her way home. [ 14] It so happened that, after she had left the temple, one Carutius, captivated by her beauty, accosted her, and in compliance with his wishes she married him. On her husband’s death all his estate came into her hands, and, when she died, she named the Roman people her heir. [15] Ancus therefore had her buried in the Velabrum, the most frequented part of the city, and a yearly rite was instituted in her honor, at which sacrifice was offered by a priest to her departed spirit—the rest day being dedicated to Jupiter because it was believed of old that souls are given by him and are given back to him again after death. [16] Cato, however, says that Larentia, enriched by the profits of her profession, left lands known as the Turacian, Semurian, Lintirian, and Solinian lands to the Roman people after her death and was therefore deemed worthy of a splendid tomb and the honor of an annual service of remembrance. [17] But Macer, in the first Book of his Histories, maintains that Acca Larentia was the wife of Faustulus and the nurse of Romulus and Remus and that in the reign of Romulus she married a weajthy Etruscan named Carutius, succeeded to her husband’s wealth as his heir, and afterward left it to her foster child Romulus, who dutifully appointed a memorial service and a festival in her honor.
[18] One can infer, then, from all that has been said, that the Saturnalia lasted but one day and was held only on the fourteenth day before the Kalends of January; it was on this day alone that the shout of “Io Saturnalia” would be raised, in the temple of Saturn, at a riotous feast. Now, however, during the celebration of the Saturnalia, this day is allotted to the festival of the Opalia, although the day was first assigned to Saturn and Ops in common.
[19] Men believed that the goddess Ops was the wife of Saturn and that both the Saturnalia and the jOpalia are held in this month of December because the produce of the fields and orchards are thought to be the discovery of these two deities, who, when men have gathered in the fruits of the earth, are worshiped therefore as the givers of a more civilized life. [20] Some too are of the opinion that Saturn and Ops represent heaven and earth, the name Saturn being derived from the word for growth from seed (satus), since such growth is the gift of heaven, and the name Ops being identified with earth, either because it is by her bounty (ops) that life is nourished or because the name comes from the toil (opus) which is needed to bring forth the fruits of trees and fields. [21] When men make prayer to Ops they sit and are careful to touch the earth, signifying thereby that the earth is the very mother of mortals and is to be approached as such.
[22] Philochorus says that Cecrops was the first to build, in Attica, an altar to Saturn and Ops, worshiping these deities as Jupiter and Earth, and to ordain that, when crops and fruits had been garnered, the head of a household everywhere should eat thereof in company with the slaves with whom he had borne the toil of cultivating the land, for it was well pleasing to the god that honor should be paid to the slaves in consideration of their labor. And that is why we follow the practice of a foreign land and offer sacrifice to Saturn with the head uncovered.
[23] I think that we have now given abundant proof that the festival of the Saturnalia used to be celebrated on only one day, the fourteenth before the Kalends of January, but that it was afterward prolonged to last three days: first, in consequence of the days which Caesar added to the month of December, and then in pursuance of an edict of Augustus which prescribed a series of three rest days for the Saturnalia. The festival therefore begins on the sixteenth day before the Kalends of January and ends on the fourteenth, which used to be the only day of its celebration.5 [24] However, the addition of the feast of the Sigillaria has extended the time of general excitement and religious rejoicing to seven days.

Macrobius does an excellent job summarizing authorities that were available to him, most of which I think have been lost. His conclusion is quite clear, Saturnalia originally was one day and occurred on the 14th day before the Kalends January, but when Caesar altered the calendar it was extended to three days and started on the 16th, later a new Festival of Sigillaria extended the celebrations to complete seven days, meaning that the Festival ended on either the 10th or ninth day before the Kalends of January depending on how we count. Of course neither of these days fall on the eighth day before the Kalends of January, that is December 25.

And to make all things complete, does the Festival of Sigillaria have anything to do with Christmas? Not really:

I must now deal briefly with the Sigillaria, for I would not have you think that I spoke of a matter calling for a smile rather than reverence.
[47] Epicadus relates that Hercules after killing Geryon drove his herds in triumph through Italy and from a bridge (now known as the Sublician Bridge), which had been built for the occasion, cast into the river a number of human figures equal to the number of the comrades he had chanced to lose on his journey, his object being to ensure that these figures might be carried by the current to the sea and so, as it were, to restore to their ancestral homes the bodies of the dead.8 This is said to have been the origin of the practice, which has persisted, of including the making of such figures in a religious rite. [48] In my opinion, however, a truer account of the origin of this practice is that which, I remember, I recently recalled,” namely, that, when the Pelasgians learned, by a happier interpretation of the words, that “heads” meant heads of clay not heads of living men and came to understand that φωτος meant “of a light” as well as “of a man,” they began to kindle wax tapers in honor of Saturn, in preference to their former ritual, and to carry little masks to the chapel of Dis, which adjoins the altar of Saturn, instead of human heads. [49] Thence arose the traditional custom of sending round wax tapers at the Saturnalia and of making and selling little figures of clay for men to offer to Saturn, on behalf of Dis, as an act of propitiation for themselves and their families. [50] So it is that the regular use of such articles of trade begins at the Saturnalia and lasts for seven days. These days, in consequence, are only rest days (feriatos), not all of them are festivals. For we have shown that the day in the middle, namely the thirteenth day before the Kalends of January,10 was a day for legal business; and this has been attested by other statements made by those who have given a fuller account of the arrangement of the year, months, and days, and of the regulation of the calendar by Gaius Caesar.-Saturnalia 1.11.46-50

One wonders why people made such claims about the Festival of Saturnalia when it clearly has nothing to do with Christmas. If however another ancient author contradicts Macrobius, please post a comment and let me know.
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Note: Since this is about to disappear I posted the whole page.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The dates of Saturnalia (and Sigillaria!) and Christmas | Chronicon Blog

Christmas, the Winter Solstice, and the birth of the Sun | Chronicon Blog

Julius Africanus and Christmas as December 25
Posted on January 2, 2011 by Tom
A question has come in about Christmas and Julius Africanus. Africanus (wrote 221/222AD) is a fascinating figure, whose work the Chronographia has been lost except for fragments and testimonies from later authors. An excellent edition has recently been released in … Continue reading →

Posted in Christmas, Julius Africanus | 5 Comments
Cyprian, Christmas, and the birth of the Sun
Posted on December 31, 2010 by Tom
Occasionally I find that people attempt to quote Cyprian as supporting the idea that Jesus was born on the same day that the Sun was born, typically linking this with December 25 and the Festival of the Birth of Sol … Continue reading →

Posted in Christmas, Cyprian | 1 Comment
Antiochus of Athens and the Birth of the Sun-update
Posted on December 28, 2010 by Tom
Roger Pearse responded to my post on Sol Invictus, and made some very good points. Aurelian did institite games of the sun (agones solis) in October. The calendar of Philocalus does not give any Christian festivals, so I think we … Continue reading →

Posted in Christmas | 6 Comments
Sol Invictus evidently not a precursor to Christmas
Posted on December 21, 2010 by Tom
I have found the full Latin of the inscription which Roll (“Toward the Origins of Christmas”) implies states that Emperor Aurelian set up a feast for Sol Invictus on December 25 in 274AD. The Latin inscription can be found here … Continue reading →

Posted in Christmas | 8 Comments
Christmas, the Winter Solstice, and the birth of the Sun
Posted on December 19, 2010 by Tom
Two days ago we talked about the origins of Saturnalia and yesterday we talked about the date on which it was celebrated, in both cases there seems to be no relation between Saturnalia and Christmas. Far more interesting, however, is … Continue reading →

Posted in Christmas | 6 Comments
The dates of Saturnalia (and Sigillaria!) and Christmas
Posted on December 18, 2010 by Tom
Yesterday we looked at Macrobius’s account of the origin of the Festival of Saturnalia to see if it’s origins influenced Christmas, as some claim. Macrobius gave several different stories and none of them seem to have anything to do with … Continue reading →

Posted in Christmas | 4 Comments
The Origins of Saturnalia and Christmas
Posted on December 17, 2010 by Tom
I was inspired to look at an English translation of Macrobius’s Saturnalia after reading Roger Pearse’s post that mentioned that Macrobius claimed that an infant was presented on the winter solstice as a representation of the Sun. Saturnalia was a … Continue reading →

Posted in Christmas | 4 Comments
Clement of Alexandria and the Original date of Christmas as December 25th
Posted on December 3, 2010 by Tom
Previously I posted a summary of my article which I added as an appendix to my translation of Hippolytus of Rome’s Commentary on Daniel. In it I argue that Hippolytus did in fact believe that Jesus was born on December … Continue reading →

Posted in Christmas, Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus | 7 Comments
Hippolytus and the Original Date of Christmas
Posted on November 21, 2010 by Tom
***Update-see my new post on Clement of Alexandria and Christmas December 25th**** Around this time last year I put up a blog post pointing out that Hippolytus of Rome names December 25 as the birthday of Jesus in his Commentary … Continue reading →

Posted in Christmas, Chronology, Hippolytus | 23 Comments
Hippolytus and December 25th, the birthday of Christ-Christmas
Posted on December 8, 2009 by Tom
****go here for a much more in-depth discussion that supersedes the discussion below**** *Scroll down for more updates* Roger Pearse is discussing the dates of the Winter Solstice and “Brumalia” to see if and how they correspond with December 25th. … Continue reading →

Christmas | Chronicon Blog

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Clement of Alexandria and the Original date of Christmas as December 25th
Posted on December 3, 2010 by Tom
Previously I posted a summary of my article which I added as an appendix to my translation of Hippolytus of Rome’s Commentary on Daniel. In it I argue that Hippolytus did in fact believe that Jesus was born on December 25. After I wrote this appendix I added a shorter appendix on Clement of Alexandria which I am posting online here. Below is the article itself but without footnotes, I didn’t have nearly as much time to research this article as I had with the previous one, comments are welcome.

Aside from Hippolytus, Clement of Alexandria (wrote 193-215 AD) is the other writer with a claim to being the earliest person to date the birth of Jesus. In his work entitled “Stromata” he writes:

From the birth of Christ, therefore, to the death of Commodus are, in all, 194 years, 1 month, 13 days. And there are those who have determined not only the year of our Savior’s genesis, but even the day, which they say took place in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus on the 25th of Pachon… And treating of his passion, with very great accuracy, some say that it took place in the sixteenth year of Tiberius, on the 25th of Phamenoth, but others the 25th of Pharmuthi and others say that on the 19th of Pharmuthi the Savior suffered. Indeed, others say that he came to be on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi.” ~Stromata 1.21.145-146 [my translation]

Here is a summary of the dates Clement gives for Jesus, conception, birth, and death:

Conception=24th or 25th of Pharmuthi; 25th of Pachon
Birth=194 years, 1 month, 13 days from the death of Commodus
Death=25th of Phamenoth; 19th or 25th of Pharmuthi

Clement’s dates for Jesus’ life are difficult to determine because he may have used a mobile Egyptian calendar and because he gives different dates for Commodus’ reign in other places in this work . However, one can safely conclude that Clement seems to be using the same method of calculating Jesus’ conception, birth, and death as Hippolytus.

Clearly Clement believed that Jesus died on the Passover which, like Hippolytus, he places on either the 25th of Phamenoth, the Vernal Equinox in the Egyptian Calendar, or the 19th or 25th of Pharmuthi.

He further believes that Jesus was conceived on the 25th of Pachon or the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi, of which the latter two dates correspond closely to two of the three dates of the Passover he gives for Jesus’ death, just like Hippolytus. (Clement clearly believed that the term “genesis” referred to conception because he says so specifically in the same work “It is not therefore frequent intercourse by the parents, but the reception of it [the seed] in the womb which corresponds with genesis.” ~Clement of Alexandria Stromata 3.12.83.2)

Lastly, like Hippolytus, he believes Jesus was born sometime in late fall or early winter, given Commodus’ date of death. [Dio Cassius (73.22.4-5) says that Commodus died on December 31st 193 AD. Using this date Clement would have believed Jesus was born in mid November. However if he was using the Egyptian mobile calendar he could have been referring to as late as early January. This calendar only had 365 days and no leap years so it lost roughly one day ever 4 years. See Mosshammer (2008) p.18.]

Now because Clement believed Jesus was conceived on the 24th or 25th of a month it seems likely he would place his birth on the 24th or the 25th of a month, which could very well correspond to December 25th.

In summary Clement seems to quote sources which used the same method as Hippolytus himself to calculate Jesus’ conception, birth, and death . Clement, like Hippolytus, dates Jesus’ death to the Passover and possibly also the Vernal Equinox, he seems to date his conception to the Passover, and he dates his birth to late fall or early winter. He also gives 4 different dates that are on the 25th of a month, coinciding with Hippolytus’ belief that Jesus was conceived, born, and died all on the 25th of a month. Given that Clement is quoting from several sources it is quite possible that one of his sources actually includes Hippolytus himself.

In a few weeks I hope to post some new testimonies that I’ve discovered concerning Papias. I have never seen them published before, they are nothing earth shattering but interesting nonetheless.
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Clement of Alexandria and the Original date of Christmas as December 25th | Chronicon Blog

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The Origins of Saturnalia and Christmas
Posted on December 17, 2010 by Tom
I was inspired to look at an English translation of Macrobius’s Saturnalia after reading Roger Pearse’s post that mentioned that Macrobius claimed that an infant was presented on the winter solstice as a representation of the Sun. Saturnalia was a Roman feast which occurred in middle or late December, and many have tried to draw ties between this feast and the institution of the date of Christmas.

The Saturnalia by Macrobius (wrote early 5th century) is really a dinner conversation by several interlocutors that is set during the festival Saturnalia. The lengthy dialogue covers all manner of Roman culture and the festival of Saturnalia is only one of the many, many topics. The translation I used is the one by Percival Vaughn Davies published in 1969 by Columbia University press. Loeb just came out with the only other translation; it uses a superior text and I assume has better editors. The Davies translation does not even include quotation marks!

In this work there are some very good, but lengthy quotes about the origins of Saturnalia and its customs and dates, so I will publish it all in two or three blog posts.

We begin in Saturnalia 1.7.18 which discusses the origins of the festival:

[18]…The laws of religion, he said, allow me to disclose the origin of the festival of the Saturnalia so far as the account of its origin is a matter of mythology or is made known to all by the physicists…

In the omitted section Macrobius discusses, through an interlocutor, how Saturn and Janus coreigned in Italy.

[24] It was during their reign that Saturn suddenly disappeared, and Janus then devised means to add to his honors. First he gave the name Saturnia to all the land which acknowledged his rule; and then he built an altar, instituting rites as to a god and calling these rites the Saturnalia—a fact which goes to show how very much older the festival is than the city of Rome. And it was because Saturn had improved the conditions of life that, by order of Janus, religious honors were paid to him, as his effigy indicates, which received the additional attribute of a sickle, the symbol of harvest.
[25] Saturn is credited with the invention of the art of grafting, with the cultivation of fruit trees, and with instructing men in everything that belongs to the fertilizing of the fields. Furthermore, at Cyrene his worshipers, when they offer sacrifice to him, crown themselves with fresh figs and present each other with cakes, for they hold that he discovered honey and fruits. Moreover, at Rome men call him “Sterculius,” as having been the first to fertilize the fields with dung (stercus). [26] His reign is said to have been a time of great happiness, both on account of the universal plenty that then prevailed and because as yet there was no division into bond and free—as one may gather from the complete license enjoyed by slaves at the Saturnalia.

Then Macrobius adds a second tradition about the origins of the festival:

[27] Another tradition accounts for the Saturnalia as follows. Hercules is said to have left men behind him in Italy, either (as certain authorities hold) because he was angry with them for neglecting to watch over his herds or (as some suppose), deliberately, to protect his altar and temple from attacks. Harassed by brigands, these men occupied a high hill and called themselves Saturnians, from the name which the hill too used previously to bear, and, conscious of the protection afforded to them by the name of Saturn and by the awe which the god inspired, they are said to have instituted the Saturnalia, to the end that the very observance of the festival thus proclaimed might bring the uncouth minds of their neighbors to show a greater respect for the worship of the god.

Macrobius then adds a third account:

[28] I am aware too of the account given by Varro of the origin of the Saturnalia. The Pelasgians, he says, when they were driven from their homes, made for various lands, but most of them flocked to Dodona and, doubtful where to settle, consulted the oracle. They received this reply: “Go ye in search of the land of the Sicels and the Aborigines, a land, sacred to Saturn, even Cotyle, where floateth an island. Mingle with these people and then send a tenth to Phoebus and offer heads to Hades and a man to the Father.”8 Such was the response which they received, and after many wanderings they came to Latium, where in the lake of Cutilia they found a floating9 island, [29] for there was a large expanse of turf—perhaps solidified mud or perhaps an accumulation of marsh land with brushwood and trees forming a luxuriant wood—and it was drifting through the water by the movement of the waves in such a way as to win credence even for the tale of Delos, the island which, for all its lofty hills and wide plains, used to journey through the seas from place to place. [30] The discovery of this marvel showed the Pelasgians that here was the home foretold for them. And, after having driven out the Sicilian inhabitants, they took possession of the land, dedicating a tenth of the spoil to Apollo, in accordance with the response given by the oracle, and raising a little shrine to Dis and an altar to Saturn, whose festival they named the Saturnalia.
[31] For many years they thought to propitiate Dis with human heads and Saturn with the sacrifice of men, since the oracle had bidden them: “Offer heads to Hades and a man (<pfi>xa) to the Father.” But later, the story goes, Hercules, returning through Italy with the herds of Geryon, persuaded their descendants to replace these unholy sacrifices with others of good omen, by offering to Dis little masks cleverly fashioned to represent the human face, instead of human heads, and by honoring the altars of Saturn with lighted candles instead of with the blood of a man; for the word (porta means “lights” as well as “a man.” [32] This is the origin of the custom of sending round wax tapers during the Saturnalia, although others think that the practice is derived simply from the fact that it was in the reign of Saturn that we made our way, as though to the light, from a rude and gloomy existence to a knowledge of the liberal arts. [33] I should add, however, that I have found it written that, since many through greed made the Saturnalia an excuse to solicit and demand gifts from their clients, a practice which bore heavily on those of more slender means, one Publicius, a tribune, proposed to the people that no one should send anything but wax tapers to one richer than himself.

Here another interlocutor interrupts and talks about different traditions that were added at a later time:

[34] I find, Praetextatus, interposed Albinus Caecina, a substituted sacrifice, such as that which you have just mentioned, made in later times at the rites of the Compitalia, when games used to be held at crossroads throughout the city, that is to say, on the restoration of these games by Tarquinius Superbus, in honor of the Lares and of Mania, in accordance with an oracle of Apollo. For that oracle ordained that offering should be made “for heads with heads,” [35] and for some time the ritual required the sacrifice of boys to the goddess Mania, the mother of the Lares, to insure the safety of the family. But after the expulsion of Tarquinius, Junius Brutus, as consul, determined to change the nature of the sacrificial rite. By his order heads of garlic arid poppies were used at the rite, so that the oracle was obeyed, in so far as it had prescribed “heads,” and a criminal and unholy sacrifice was discarded.10 It also became the practice to avert any peril that threatened a particular family by hanging up woolen11 images before the door of the house. As for the games themselves, they were customarily called “Compitalia” from the crossroads (compita) at which they were held. But I interrupted you. Pray go on.

Then Macrobius’s main interlocutor for this section continues with his conclusion:

[36] You have referred, said Praetextatus, to a parallel instance of a change for the better in the ritual of a sacrifice. The point is well taken and well timed. But from the reasons adduced touching the origin of the Saturnalia it appears that the festival is of greater antiquity than the city of Rome, for in fact Lucius Accius” in his Annals says that its regular observance began in Greece before the foundation of Rome. [37] Here are the lines:
In most of Greece, and above all at Athens, men celebrate in honor of Saturn a festival which they always call the festival of Cronos. The day is kept a holiday, and in country and in town all usually hold joyful feasts, at which each man waits on his own slaves. And so it is with us. Thus from Greece that custom has been handed down, and slaves dine with their masters at that time.

So, lots of traditions about the origin of the festival of Saturnalia, but none of them seem to have to do with the birth of anyone. Tomorrow I will post Macrobius’s discussion on the various dates Saturnalia was celebrated and we will see if according to Macrobius it was ever celebrated on December 25.

The Origins of Saturnalia and Christmas | Chronicon Blog

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Christmas, the Winter Solstice, and the birth of the Sun
Posted on December 19, 2010 by Tom
Two days ago we talked about the origins of Saturnalia and yesterday we talked about the date on which it was celebrated, in both cases there seems to be no relation between Saturnalia and Christmas.

Far more interesting, however, is the correlation between Christmas and the birth of the Sun, we resume reading Macrobius’s Saturnalia Book 1.18.2, where the conversation attempts to define which God is exactly the God of the Sun, or the Sun God:

[2 ] You must bear in mind, replied Vettius, that the company of poets in their stories about the gods usually borrow the elements of these stories from the secret places of philosophy; certainly it is not empty superstition but divine reason that makes them relate almost all the gods—at any rate the celestial gods—to the sun.

Correlating all God’s to the Sun isn’t really that helpful, but as we will see he’s not kidding, this begins the same chapter section 7:

[7] I first maintained that Apollo is to be identified with the sun, and I afterward explained that Liber Pater is himself Apollo; and so there can be no doubt but that the sun and Liber Pater are to be regarded as manifestations of the same deity. Nevertheless the point shall be established distinctly by yet clearer proofs. [8] In the performance of sacred rites a mysterious rule of religion ordains that the sun shall be called Apollo when it is in the upper hemisphere, that is to say, by day, and be held to be Dionysus, or Liber Pater, when it is in the lower hemisphere, that is to say, at night. [9] Likewise, statues of Liber Pater represent him sometimes as a child and sometimes as a young man; again, as a man with a beard and also as an old man, as for example the statue of the god which the Greeks call Bassareus and Briseus, and that which in Campania the Neapolitans worship under the name Hebon. [10] These differences in age have reference to the sun, for at the winter solstice the sun would seem to be a little child, like that which the Egyptians bring forth from a shrine on an appointed day, since the day is then at its shortest and the god is accordingly shown as a tiny infant.” Afterward, however, as the days go on and lengthen, the sun at the spring equinox acquires strength in a way comparable to growth to adolescence, and so the god is given the appearance of a young man. Subsequently, he is represented in full maturity, with a beard, at the summer solstice, when the sun’s growth is completed. After that, the days shorten, as though with the approach of his old age—hence the fourth of the figures by which the god is portrayed.

So as it turns out, in Egypt in the 4/5th centuries the sun god, whoever that may be, was portrayed as an infant on the Solstice. Whether this predates December 25 the date as given by Hippolytus in 202-211AD remains unclear.

Macrobius continues to identify other gods with the sun as well as the 12 signs of the Zodiac in Saturnalia 1.21.12:

This is their sign for Osiris, and by it they indicate that this god is the sun, which with royal power looks down upon the world from on high. And indeed in ancient usage the sun is called the eye of Jupiter.
[13] Among the Egyptians Apollo (and he is the sun) is called Horus —whence the name “hours” (horae) has been given to 24 divisions which make up a day and a night and to the four seasons [ὥραι] which together complete the cycle of the year [14] It has also been a practice of the Egyptians, when they wish to dedicate a statue of the sun under its own name, to represent it with the head shaved except on the right side, where the hair is allowed to remain. The hair that is kept shows that the sun In never hidden from the world of nature, and the retention of the roots after the locks have been sure indicates that it is an essential property of the song even when it is invisible to us, to reappear like those locks. [15] This same attribute of a half-shorn head is also a symbol of the time when the light is reduced and when the sun, as though shorn of its growth and with a mere stubble, so to speak, remaining, comes to the shortest day (which the men of old called the winter solstice, using the word bruma for winter, from the shortness of the day, as though to say “short day.” But when the sun rises again from its narrow retreat, it reaches out to the summer hemisphere, growing in strength as though by a process of birth, and it is believed to have come then into its own realm. [ 16] That is why, among the signs of the zodiac, the Egyptians have dedicated an animal, the lion, in that part of the heavens where in its yearly course the sun’s powerful heat is hottest. And the Sign of the Lion there they call “The House of the Sun,” because a lion seems to derive its essential qualities from the natural properties of the sun. [17] For, in the first place, the lion by its energy and ardor surpasses other animals as the sun surpasses the rest of the stars. And then, just as a lion’s strength is in its breast and in the font part of its body, but its hinder limbs are weaker, so the might of the sun grows more powerful from the first part of the day up to noon or from the first part of the year, that is from the spring, ro summer; but afterward the sun grows weaker, as it declines to its setting (which would seem to be the hinder part of the day) or to the winter (the hinder part of the year). And the lion, too, always gazes with open fiery eyes, just as the sun regards the earth with the continuous and unwearied gaze of its open fiery eye.
[18] Again, not only the Lion, but every one of the signs of the zodiac as well, may properly be related to natural attributes of the sun. To begin with the Ram: the affinity here is well marked, for throughout the six winter months a ram…

So in the fourth and fifth centuries many gods were associated with the Sun and in Egypt the Sun was shown as an infant on the winter solstice, (December 25 was thought of as the winter solstice even though it may not have actually fallen on that date specifically). “Bruma” or “Brumalia” is another name for the winter solstice, Roger Pearse has an excellent blog post here and here about this and its relationship to Christmas.

But turning back to the idea that the sun was born on the winter solstice and its influence on Christmas; is there any evidence that the birth of the Sun was celebrated on the winter solstice before 202-211 AD (when Hippolytus first marked the birth of Jesus as December 25)?

Not that I can find, the closest is an inscription dated to 275 AD in Inscriptiones Latinae Selectae by Hermann Dessau 1969 (I have not checked this, I read it in “Toward the Origins of Christmas” by Susan Roll). The inscription apparently marks Emperor Aurelian’s attempts to subordinate all God’s under Sol (the Sun) and declares December 25 as the birth of this god.

I really would like to get a hold of a copy of this inscription (e-mail me or leave a comment if you have access), but for now it is obvious that this decree was issued more than 50 years after Hippolytus wrote, and that the reason for first establishing the birth of Jesus on December 25 was not because of this decree. Indeed, the real reason December 25 was chosen has to do with the date of the Passover, which you can read about here.
http://chronicon.net/blog/christmas/christmas-the-winter-solstice-and-the-birth-of-the-sun/

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Christmas, the Winter Solstice, and the birth of the Sun | Chronicon Blog
The dates of Saturnalia (and Sigillaria!) and Christmas | Chronicon Blog
The Origins of Saturnalia and Christmas | Chronicon Blog
Clement of Alexandria and the Original date of Christmas as December 25th | Chronicon Blog
Christmas | Chronicon Blog
Clement of Alexandria and the Original date of Christmas as December 25th | Chronicon Blog
The Origins of Saturnalia and Christmas | Chronicon Blog
The dates of Saturnalia (and Sigillaria!) and Christmas | Chronicon Blog
Sol Invictus evidently not a precursor to Christmas | Chronicon Blog
Antiochus of Athens and the Birth of the Sun-update | Chronicon Blog
Cyprian, Christmas, and the birth of the Sun | Chronicon Blog
Julius Africanus and Christmas as December 25 | Chronicon Blog

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"Mithraic scholars, you see, do not hold a candle for the thesis that Christianity borrowed anything philosophically from Mithraism, and they do not see any evidence of such borrowing, with one major exception: "The only domain in which we can ascertain in detail the extent to which Christianity imitated Mithraism is that of art." [MS.508n]"Mitrha vs Jesus

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The Existence of Jesus and the “Copycat” Thesis

1. Shattering the Christ Myth: Did Jesus Not Exist?(2008), Edited by James Patrick Holding
2. Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazereth (2012), by Bart D. Ehrman*
3. Unmasking the Pagan Christ: An Evangelical Response to the Cosmic Christ Idea (2006), by Stanley E. Porter and Stephen J. Bedard
4. Lord or Legend?: Wrestling with the Jesus Dilemma (2007), by Gregory A. Boyd and Paul R. Eddy
   CONTINUE READING RECOMMENDED READINGS ON HISTORICAL APOLOGETICS
   

Posted in UncategorizedTagged "alternative" gospels, Bart D. Ehrman, books, Cold-Case Christianity, Craig A. Evans, Craig L. Blomberg, Did Jesus Exist?, Fabricating Jesus, Four Gospels One Jesus?, From God to Us, Gary R. Habermas, Gregory A. Boyd, historical apologetics, J. Warner Wallace, J.P. Moreland, James Patrick Holding, Lee Strobel, Lord or Legend?, Michael R. Licona, Norman L. Geisler, On Guard, Paul R. Eddy, Reasonable Faith, recommended readings, Recommended Readings on Historical Apologetics, Richard A. Burridge, Richard Swineburne, Robert J. Hutchinson, Searching for Jesus, Shattering the Christ Myth, Stanley E. Porter,Stephen J. Bedard, the "copycat" thesis, The Amateur Apologist, The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology, The Case for Christ, The Case for the Real Jesus, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus, the existence of Jesus, the historical reliability of the Gospels, the New Testament Cannon, the resurrection of Jesus, the textual reliability of the Gospels, Unmasking the Pagan Christ, Was Jesus God?, William E. Nix, William Lane CraigLeave

books | The Amateur Apologist

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"
Part 3: The Christ Myth, Thesis Two: The "Copycat" Thesis

• Chapter 14: Pagan Christs, Persian Front: Mithra and Zoroaster. Examinations of claims about these pagan gods as sources for the life of Jesus.
• Chapter 15: Pagan Christs, Eastern Front: Buddha, Krishna
• Chapter 16: Pagan Christs, Egyptian Front: Horus, Osiris
  See now also, starting with the July 2009 issue of the Tekton E-Block, a response to D. M. Murdock's Christ in Egypt.
  
  
• Chapter 17: Pagan Christs, European Front: Attis, Dionysus
• Chapter 18: The Pagan Christs: The Minor Leagues. A look at a wide variety of lesser "copycat" candidates like Beddru of Japan and Quetzalcoatl.
• Chapter 19: The Pagan Copycat Mythicists. Profiles of Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy, Acharya S, and Tom Harpur.
• Chapter 20: I Have a Parallelogram. How the "Mythic Hero Archaetype" is used to promote the mythicist thesis, and how fallacious techniques are used to create parallels.
• Chapter 21: The Devil and Freke and Gandy: Diabolical Mimicry and the Christ Myth by Don Harper. Looks at claims that early church apologists resorted to "diabolical mimicry" to explain away parallels between Jesus and pagan christ figures. Harper's website may be found here."http://www.tektonics.org/shattering.html

 

[thecolorsblend]

Apart from your wall text posts (no offense), what is "controversial" about this?

The big brained members who think Christmas is "not biblical" (whatever that means) are the ones who are controversial.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

This site confronts the copycat thesis and exposes it for what it is, nonsense. http://www.tektonics.org/copycathub.html

Serious Scholars and Historians have long seen the claims for copycat thesis holders as being not Scholastic, nor Historical in Nature.

Being a trained Historian myself I see it as a bad joke.

videoes I am unable to view --- no speakers.
Classic Works of Apologetics - Copycat Myth-takes
Five Principles to Respond to Claims That Jesus is a Copy-Cat (Podcast) | Cold Case Christianity

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Apart from your wall text posts (no offense), what is "controversial" about this?

The big brained members who think Christmas is "not biblical" (whatever that means) are the ones who are controversial.

Thank You for your kind question. Many who are anti Christmas borrow from those who wrote the copycat myths about Christmas to claim pagan origins.

In the second post concerning the date of Saturnalia which is 14 or 16 days before the Kalends(A Festival in January). For Saturnalia to be December 25, or as the Romans would say Eight days before the Kalends of January. The author in those early posts uses primary sources.

Links are given to those who do a fine job of refuting the copycat thesis.

Serious Historians today do not take the claims of the copycat people seriously because they have long been disproved.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Serious Historians today do not take the claims of the copycat people seriously

I agree. That's one reason why these silly copycat tirades get posted here. We don't get many serious historians 'round these parts.

I always say a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. The Christians who condemn Christmas are Exhibit A for that.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"
Now, if we extract some principles from these scholars, we would end up with:

1. Similarity of general motifs is not enough to "prove anything"; we must have "complex structures" (e.g., 'system of deities', 'narrative structure').
2. Ideally, we would need to establish the historical link first, before looking for borrowings.
3. Differences between structures/stories/complexes do not disprove influence, as long as the parallels are 'too numerous' and 'too striking'.
4. Parallels must be 'striking' (i.e., unexpected, 'odd', difficult to account for).
5. Some/many parallels/parallel motifs are superficial (i.e., identical on the surface), and 'prove nothing'.
6. Parallels that can be used to support the possibility of influence need to be numerous.
7. Parallels that can be used to support the possibility of influence need to be complex (i.e., with multiple parts and interrelationships).
8. Parallels that can be used to support the possibility of influence need to be detailed.
9. The details in alleged parallels must have the same "conceptual usage" reflected in them (e.g., they must be used with the same meaning).
10. The parallels must have the same ' ideas underlying them'.
11. The similar ideas in alleged parallels must be 'central features' in the material--and not just isolated or peripheral elements.
12. Details which are completely unexpected (to the point of being unexplainable apart from borrowing) are strong evidence for borrowing
13. Details which are almost irrelevant to the new context, but which have function in the old context are strong evidence for borrowing"

copycat
FreeFind Site Search Results

In this thread I am basically collecting sources.

Not discussing or debating alleged parallels.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"
Mithras
Unless you consider emerging fully grown out of a rock being born of a virgin, this god already has one strike against being similar to Jesus. Certainly, he must have been crucified, right? No. Actually, Mithras didn’t even die–he was believed to be taken to paradise on a chariot when still alive. Since he didn’t die, he didn’t resurrect from the dead. Three strikes, you’re out!"Was Christ a Copycat?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Krishna, Christ, and Parallelomania
by Dewayne Bryant, Ph.D.

"Charges of plagiarism are quite common among critics of Christianity. Christians may hear claims that their faith rests on a religion entirely borrowed from older faiths and mythologies. Often described as a relative late-comer to the religious scene, Christianity is alleged to have borrowed from a wide array of mythological traditions. Upon closer examination of the facts, claims of this nature are often baseless and sometimes even fraudulent.

...skip paragraph ...

baseless and sometimes even fraudulent.

One of the so-called “savior gods” of the ancient world is the Hindu deity Krishna. Mythicists (those who believe Jesus is nothing more than a mythical figure like Zeus, Thor, Ba’al, etc.) claim the existence of unmistakable parallels between Krishna and Jesus in the original sources. These parallels are so strong, they argue, that the only rational conclusion is that the Gospel writers recorded a tradition about Jesus that was deeply influenced by, or even plagiarized, Hindu beliefs.1

Although the description of similarities between the two persons sounds as if some connection exists, problems quickly begin to mount once readers consult the original texts. How well do these alleged parallels stand under closer scrutiny? Very poorly. Let us consider some of the most common claims found in sources from published books and articles to information on the Internet."Krishna, Christ, and Parallelomania

https://www.google.com/search?q=par...orwBw&start=20&sa=N&biw=1163&bih=528&dpr=1.65

"
Ancient Sumerian cylinder seal impression: Dumuzid tortured in the Underworld by the galla

Venus and Cupid lamenting the dead Adonis (1656) by Cornelis Holsteyn
The dying-and-rising deity motif may be an example of parallelomania
In historical analysis, biblical criticism and comparative mythology, parallelomania refers to a phenomenon (mania) where authors perceive apparent similarities and construct parallels and analogies allegedly without historical basis.[1]

The concept was introduced to scholarly circles in 1961 by Rabbi Samuel Sandmel (1911–79) of the Hebrew Union College in a paper of the same title, where he stated that he had first encountered the term[2] in a French book of 1830, but did not recall the author or the title.[3] Martin McNamara, MSC (Milltown Institute of Theology and Philosophy) stated that Sandmel's initial paper has proven to be "highly influential""Parallelomania - Wikipedia


Parallelomania
Author(s): Samuel Sandmel
Reviewed work(s):
Source: Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 81, No. 1 (Mar., 1962), pp. 1-13
Published by: The Society of Biblical Literature
Stable URL: Parallelomania on JSTOR .
https://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/presidentialaddresses/JBL81_1_1Sandmel1961.pdf

 

[Daniel Marsh]

In the last post the word of the day is Parallelomania.

This was one of the road marks that refuted the copycat thesis.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

BooK: The Babylon Connection?: Ralph Woodrow

"
From the Back Cover
THE BABYLON CONNECTION? shows that claims about Babylonian origins often lack connection, takes a closer look at the oft-quoted THE TWO BABYLONS by Alexander Hislop, and provides some much needed clarification on this subject. Was Nimrod a deformed, ugly black man, married to Semiramis, a beautiful white woman with blue eyes and blond hair? Was Semiramis the originator of Soprano singing and priestly celibacy? Was she the mother of Tammuz? Is the cross a symbol of Tammuz? Are round communion wafers sun-symbols?

Are candles, black clergy garments, the letters I.H.S., the fish symbol, halos, and church steeples of pagan origin? Does the Pope wear a crown with 666 on it? Was the papal mitre copied from the fishhead of Dagon? Does the Book of Revelation describe the Roman Catholic Church as "Mystery Babylon"?
"
https://www.amazon.com/Babylon-Connection-Ralph-Woodrow/dp/0916938174

 

[Daniel Marsh]

"
iv) The attempted parallels appeal to Buddhism and Zoroastrianism. But here's an obvious problem with that comparison. As Edwin Yamauchi explains:
SOURCESWe need to distinguish sharply between first-hand or nearly contemporary sources and later apocryphal and legendary materials.
Zoroaster (628-551 B.C.). We have what appear to be the genuine sayings of Zoroaster in theGathas of the Avesta. The mass of Zoroastrian texts, however, are in late Pahlavi recensions (ninth century A.D.). Contemporary Old Persian cuneiform inscriptions betray at best only allusions to early Zoroastrianism. Some Greek and Arabic authors also allude to Zoroaster. The Persian national epic, the Shah Namah by Firdausi (c. A.D. 1000), includes traditions of the prophet.
Buddha (563-483 B.C.). Buddha's teachings, after many centuries of being passed on orally, were written down for the first time in the first century B.C. in Ceylon. The earliest written texts which have been preserved are in Pali, an Indo-Aryan dialect which may be the dialect Buddha himself used. The Pali canon of the Hinayana school (the southern branch of Buddhism, also called the Theravada school) is known as the Tipitaka (Sanskrit Tripitaka), meaning "Three Baskets." Portions of this collection, such as the Samyutta Nikaya, the Majjhima Nikaya and the Anguttara Nikaya, may have come into existence two centuries after Buddha's death, but othted much later.
The Sanskrit canon of the Mahayana school, which spread northeastward to Tibet, China, Korea and Japan, dates, at the earliest, to the first and second centuries A.D. According to Christmas Humphreys, "the later Sutras of the Mahayana School, though put into Buddha's mouth, are clearly the work of minds which lived from five to fifteen hundred years after his passing."3
In the later sources one notes a conspicuous exaggeration of the supernatural elements in Buddha's life. But even the earliest traditions, separated as they are by a century or two from Buddha's time, are not free from amplification. As M. Winternitz observes, "Even what are generally considered to be our oldest documents, the texts of the Pali Tipitaka, speak of Buddha often enough as a superhuman being, and tell us more of the legendary man than of the historical Buddha."4 Log in | Institute For Religious Research
Let's now turn to some specific claims:
If you are among the approximately 32 percent of the world population that considers themselves Christian, you were probably raised to believe that the Bible was written in some sort of historical vacuum—the various authors being inspired by God alone and having no outside influences whatsoever."Triablogue: Parallelomania

 

[Daniel Marsh]

January: named after Janus, a two faced god of doors and gateways whose one face looked back on the old year while the other looked forward to the new one.

February: named in honour of the Februa festival, personified by Februus, the Roman god of purification.

March: named after Mars, the god of war, with his month ushering in the start of the war season as hostilities resume after halting during winter.

April: named after Aphrodite, the goddess of beauty, or the Latin word aperire, meaning “to open,”representing the season plant life begins to open in spring.

May: named after Maia, a goddess of the earth and of plant growth, symbolizing a month associated with a surge in plant activity.

June: named after Juno, the goddess of marriage and childbirth and also the wife of Jupiter, the king of gods. June has always been a popular month for weddings, as the goddess would bring happiness and prosperity to all those who wed in her month.

July: Previously called Quintilis, which is Latin for “fifth,” the month was later named after Julius Caesar in honour of his reorganising the calendar in 46 BCE.

August: named after Augustus Caesar, the grandnephew and adopted heir of Julius Caesar, who in 8 BCE transformed Rome from a republic into an empire ruled by an emperor.

September: from the Latin word septem (seven), as this had been the seventh month of the ancient Roman calendar which started the year in March.

October: from the Latin word octo (eight).

November: from the Latin word novem (nine).

December: from the Latin word decem (ten).