Convert mistakes/bad theology

[~Anastasia~]

I think it sometimes has to do with security. Letting go and trusting the Church the way we should is a big endeavor. It isn't easy to let go. It isn't easy also, as you pointed out, to admit that we are not capable on our own to figure out the smallest details. For me it has been a great freedom to trust the Church. Lol, it took a psychologist's (he's a Catholic) help to make me realize the futility of trying to "figure out God." I can tell you, being a catechumen is better than being a seeker.

Well, I was talking about the inquirer phase really.

We can't just tell an inquirer to accept the authority of the early Church and believe us - at least not a good Protestant inquirer. They just haven't been taught that way. It would go against their conscience.

Instead they need patience and understanding and help from us, while they need to summon their own courage and honesty in order to be able to search the Scriptures with fresh eyes to see if we are telling the truth.

It's a very delicate phase.

Once we have understood that we can indeed trust the early Church, and begin to rest with some assurance on those issues we might not have worked out yet, it is indeed very freeing.

Protestants if they are wise will accept statements such as "I know the Scriptures are not in major conflict with themselves ... if they seems to be, I know it's my understanding that has not caught up". It's kind of like that with the Church. Eventually I reached a point where a few remaining questions didn't make sense, but I had seen the Church explain time and again and had found her to be right and sound, so just as a Protestant can trust that Scripture is correct (we do too, by the way) ... I could have the added assurance that the Church was likewise right, and I would grow to understand that. And I have.

St. Paul was correct when he wrote that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth. And it's in the Scriptures, so we know it's true.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Ok, I’ll say it....converts can be ultra annoying!! On one hand converts bring a new enthusiasm, energy, Bible knowledge, and excitement to Orthodoxy, but on the other hand, they can be loud, ask so many questions that you want to pull a Magneto and pluck their fillings out, and feel like they have to do weird things like throw their former churches off the bus and try to prove how Orthodox they are. After only a few months they fancy themselves Jedi Masters of the highest order. They often think they have to know everything and learn Russian or Greek, etc.

I’ve observed these behaviors firsthand. It’s annoying. They’re often loud and irritating. They try to get involved in everything and anything and are about as subtle as a Lamborghini.

However, some cradle Orthodox I’ve watched frequently miss Liturgy, know very little about their own faith, see Orthodoxy as an ethnic club, and are Biblically pretty lacking in knowledge.

There is good and bad in everything; I can see how both sides can be strong or annoying. LOL

 

[Hermit76]

Well, I was talking about the inquirer phase really.

We can't just tell an inquirer to accept the authority of the early Church and believe us - at least not a good Protestant inquirer. They just haven't been taught that way. It would go against their conscience.

Instead they need patience and understanding and help from us, while they need to summon their own courage and honesty in order to be able to search the Scriptures with fresh eyes to see if we are telling the truth.

It's a very delicate phase.

Once we have understood that we can indeed trust the early Church, and begin to rest with some assurance on those issues we might not have worked out yet, it is indeed very freeing.

Protestants if they are wise will accept statements such as "I know the Scriptures are not in major conflict with themselves ... if they seems to be, I know it's my understanding that has not caught up". It's kind of like that with the Church. Eventually I reached a point where a few remaining questions didn't make sense, but I had seen the Church explain time and again and had found her to be right and sound, so just as a Protestant can trust that Scripture is correct (we do too, by the way) ... I could have the added assurance that the Church was likewise right, and I would grow to understand that. And I have.

St. Paul was correct when he wrote that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth. And it's in the Scriptures, so we know it's true.

I probably shouldn't be allowed to talk to inquirers for a while.

 

[Hermit76]

Ok, I’ll say it....converts can be ultra annoying!! On one hand converts bring a new enthusiasm, energy, Bible knowledge, and excitement to Orthodoxy, but on the other hand, they can be loud, ask so many questions that you want to pull a Magneto and pluck their fillings out, and feel like they have to do weird things like throw their former churches off the bus and try to prove how Orthodox they are. After only a few months they fancy themselves Jedi Masters of the highest order. They often think they have to know everything and learn Russian or Greek, etc.

I’ve observed these behaviors firsthand. It’s annoying. They’re often loud and irritating. They try to get involved in everything and anything and are about as subtle as a Lamborghini.

However, some cradle Orthodox I’ve watched frequently miss Liturgy, know very little about their own faith, see Orthodoxy as an ethnic club, and are Biblically pretty lacking in knowledge.

There is good and bad in everything; I can see how both sides can be strong or annoying. LOL

I'm trying to not be annoying but I was before Orthodoxy.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I probably shouldn't be allowed to talk to inquirers for a while.

Well, no comments against you personally, but I've seen a lot of catechumen/newly Orthodox that were outright toxic to inquirers.

It's very easy to put people off when they risk misunderstanding a good 80% or so of what we say, and won't understand the theology behind about half of it (at least not fully understand).

Like I said, it's a delicate phase.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Best post of the day!!

I'm trying to not be annoying but I was before Orthodoxy.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ok, I’ll say it....converts can be ultra annoying!! On one hand converts bring a new enthusiasm, energy, Bible knowledge, and excitement to Orthodoxy, but on the other hand, they can be loud, ask so many questions that you want to pull a Magneto and pluck their fillings out, and feel like they have to do weird things like throw their former churches off the bus and try to prove how Orthodox they are. After only a few months they fancy themselves Jedi Masters of the highest order. They often think they have to know everything and learn Russian or Greek, etc.

I’ve observed these behaviors firsthand. It’s annoying. They’re often loud and irritating. They try to get involved in everything and anything and are about as subtle as a Lamborghini.

However, some cradle Orthodox I’ve watched frequently miss Liturgy, know very little about their own faith, see Orthodoxy as an ethnic club, and are Biblically pretty lacking in knowledge.

There is good and bad in everything; I can see how both sides can be strong or annoying. LOL

Haha, I wonder how obnoxious I was to my parish family!?

If I was bad, they never let on, except for one particular faux pas, which I apologized for.

I'm still working on learning Greek though - mainly because I've toyed with it a bit for years before ever hearing about Orthodoxy. My parish family is supportive, but they want me to understand their conversations. I'm really just interested in studying the Scriptures.

I half-understood my first conversation though. But only because it was about a woman who went to a Church repeatedly, prayed, and was led to build a monastery. It included enough of those words I know.

When it's about chickens in the garden, or what the kids did last weekend, I haven't a clue lol.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Google should be an inquirer’s best friend. People come into TAW asking stuff like “what is the Orthodox View on hell?” and “what is Orthodox fasting all about?” We give answers. But what I can’t figure out is why I’m 2017 these folks haven’t considered Googling it!?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Google should be an inquirer’s best friend. People come into TAW asking stuff like “what is the Orthodox View on hell?” and “what is Orthodox fasting all about?” We give answers. But what I can’t figure out is why I’m 2017 these folks haven’t considered Googling it!?

From my point of view?

I tried googling stuff. And I found wild contradictions sometimes. I decided I didn't know who to trust. I didn't want to learn a bunch if stuff wrong then try to correct it - my brain only has so many compartments and overlays and that correction could fail, if I had already commited something to "this is Orthodox teaching" in my mind.

I've long used forums of various kinds as a safety net for knowledge I didn't have. When you have an active forum (unless it's a weird enclave that has developed) ... you may get wrong info, but human nature being what it is, someone else will probably correct them. I've suffered a lot of sarcasm and bite, but I got answers for how to fix appliances, test and balance chemicals, install car radios, file legal documents, fix car troubles, diagnose sick chickens, better treat side effects from surgery, train obnoxious kittens, build reinforced fence corners, find tax loopholes, propagate all kinds of plants, sew specialty hems, and all kinds of stuff I didn't know how to do.

So yeah ... why not ask who or what to believe about Orthodoxy?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Why not? Well there ARE reputable sites and heaps of solid information online. There aren’t many faux Orthodox sites I’m aware of. I was able to find PDF’s of saints, Fathers, and tons of official views and opinions from sites run by official Orthodox hierarchy and holy men.

Want to know Orthodox views on Original
Sin? Google it and up pops OCA, St. So-and-so Orthodox Church in Zazoo, Idaho, Wikipedia, Ancient Faith Radio, and only a few hundred others. You don’t need a forum for those things. And if you STILL can’t find an answer (unfathomable), use the search feature in forums. No need to start a thread and ask a question that has been answered in here two zillion times.

People just aren’t resourceful anymore, I swear.

Yes, I’m cranky! LOL

From my point of view?

I tried googling stuff. And I found wild contradictions sometimes. I decided I didn't know who to trust. I didn't want to learn a bunch if stuff wrong then try to correct it - my brain only has so many compartments and overlays and that correction could fail, if I had already commited something to "this is Orthodox teaching" in my mind.

I've long used forums of various kinds as a safety net for knowledge I didn't have. When you have an active forum (unless it's a weird enclave that has developed) ... you may get wrong info, but human nature being what it is, someone else will probably correct them. I've suffered a lot of sarcasm and bite, but I got answers for how to fix appliances, test and balance chemicals, install car radios, file legal documents, fix car troubles, diagnose sick chickens, better treat side effects from surgery, train obnoxious kittens, build reinforced fence corners, find tax loopholes, propagate all kinds of plants, sew specialty hems, and all kinds of stuff I didn't know how to do.

So yeah ... why not ask who or what to believe about Orthodoxy?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Why not? Well there ARE reputable sites and heaps of solid information online. There aren’t many faux Orthodox sites I’m aware of. I was able to find PDF’s of saints, Fathers, and tons of official views and opinions from sites run by official Orthodox hierarchy and holy men.

Want to know Orthodox views on Original
Sin? Google it and up pops OCA, St. So-and-so Orthodox Church in Zazoo, Idaho, Wikipedia, Ancient Faith Radio, and only a few hundred others. You don’t need a forum for those things. And if you STILL can’t find an answer (unfathomable), use the search feature in forums. No need to start a thread and ask a question that has been answered in here two zillion times.

People just aren’t resourceful anymore, I swear.

Yes, I’m cranky! LOL

Aren't you though! Cranky that is, lol.

My priest had warned me about being careful who I read or listened to. Now I know most websites are good, know lots of blogs, etc. I'm not so sure there were quite as many when I first started out. And after all, look at the crazy FB groups, and the schismatic sites? An inquirer won't know the difference.

But yes, you're cranky, lol. We love you though!

 

[FireDragon76]

in the interests of good order, i will take my response to St. Justin Martyr's Corner

 

[Jesus4Madrid]

Well, I was talking about the inquirer phase really.

We can't just tell an inquirer to accept the authority of the early Church and believe us - at least not a good Protestant inquirer. They just haven't been taught that way. It would go against their conscience.

Instead they need patience and understanding and help from us, while they need to summon their own courage and honesty in order to be able to search the Scriptures with fresh eyes to see if we are telling the truth.

It's a very delicate phase.

Once we have understood that we can indeed trust the early Church, and begin to rest with some assurance on those issues we might not have worked out yet, it is indeed very freeing.

Protestants if they are wise will accept statements such as "I know the Scriptures are not in major conflict with themselves ... if they seems to be, I know it's my understanding that has not caught up". It's kind of like that with the Church. Eventually I reached a point where a few remaining questions didn't make sense, but I had seen the Church explain time and again and had found her to be right and sound, so just as a Protestant can trust that Scripture is correct (we do too, by the way) ... I could have the added assurance that the Church was likewise right, and I would grow to understand that. And I have.

St. Paul was correct when he wrote that the Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth. And it's in the Scriptures, so we know it's true.

Amen.

My biggest surprise was that there was a “Church” and not just “churches”. My second biggest surprise was to learn that the Church could be trusted.

 

[Platina]

Meh, I don't go much for the cradle/convert distinction. For any whacky theological idea, you'll find both cradles and converts championing it. The author of "River of Fire," to use an example that seems to fit what is being spoken of here, was a Greek after all.

And as Fr. Matt pointed out, often the responses to such errors are just bad. People get upset at some group or individual, or some idea, or even some website or forum, and just harp on and on about it, taking every chance to bring it up and take a jab at it.

 

[Hermit76]

Google should be an inquirer’s best friend. People come into TAW asking stuff like “what is the Orthodox View on hell?” and “what is Orthodox fasting all about?” We give answers. But what I can’t figure out is why I’m 2017 these folks haven’t considered Googling it!?

Interesting enough, I recently did a search for "hell" in the forum but the results were several years old. I chose to post the issue again because I learn through conversation. It seems that cold searches just give you a static experience. That's just my personality though.

 

[Hermit76]

We spent some time with Conservative Mennonites. Interestingly enough the cradle/convert mentality was the same there. Converts for them were a novelty. While not second class, we were given a different standard. I could make the same remark as a cradle and I would be scolded for being a convert. It made it impossible to live up to expectations. This had an interesting effect on the Menno Converts. Converts seemed to be the more extreme Mennonites. We watched every jot and tittle of our rule. We always wanted to be a little more Mennonite than we were. The cycle usually contained a convert stage, a settled stage, increasing extremism, and then abandonment of the faith in frustration. I am finding that this same cycle can happen in Orthodoxy. However it is not as common. Somehow it all seems a little non-Christian to me. I'm fortunate to be in a parish that is largely populated by converts. I have never felt that distinction inside of the parish. My wife and I have been mindful not to follow this cycle. In the end it is a matter of trusting the church.

 

[~Anastasia~]

We spent some time with Conservative Mennonites. Interestingly enough the cradle/convert mentality was the same there. Converts for them were a novelty. While not second class, we were given a different standard. I could make the same remark as a cradle and I would be scolded for being a convert. It made it impossible to live up to expectations. This had an interesting effect on the Menno Converts. Converts seemed to be the more extreme Mennonites. We watched every jot and tittle of our rule. We always wanted to be a little more Mennonite than we were. The cycle usually contained a convert stage, a settled stage, increasing extremism, and then abandonment of the faith in frustration. I am finding that this same cycle can happen in Orthodoxy. However it is not as common. Somehow it all seems a little non-Christian to me. I'm fortunate to be in a parish that is largely populated by converts. I have never felt that distinction inside of the parish. My wife and I have been mindful not to follow this cycle. In the end it is a matter of trusting the church.

Thankfully I too don't find this in my parish. I don't think I've ever once heard the term "cradle Orthodox" mentioned there. I remember when our traveling Confessor came and I chatted with him briefly. What I wanted to know was his background before Orthodoxy, and I didn't want to be too abrupt, so I asked, "have you always been Orthodox?" He answered me, "No, I used to be a baby, and then my parents had me baptized." That response was so unexpected it shut me up and I didn't ask anything more while we walked together, lol. Which was good, because it let him make a couple of comments that I have reflected on for years, that were deeper than I could have possibly realized at the time. He is really something special.

People sometimes offer me teaching, for which I'm grateful. It may be on the Saints, or practices in the Church, or Greek language and culture. I listen and thank them, whether it's something I already know or not. They aren't in the least condescending. The few times I speak up in a meeting, they listen to me. The times I've tried to put myself in a position kind of "under" by asking for teaching, they answer my question, but I find a pretty strong reaction pushing me away from taking that approach to them. However, if I tried to correct them in their Orthodoxy (God forbid) ... I don't know what would happen but I suspect it might not be appreciated. I can tell some of them do think I went a little "overboard" but the truth is, they don't have as much interest in reading or listening to podcasts as I do. Some aspects of my theology may be more correct than some of them, but then I'm quite sure their understanding and theology is more correct than mine in other areas. This shouldn't be surprising, I don't think.

 

[mothcorrupteth]

On one hand converts bring a new enthusiasm, energy, Bible knowledge, and excitement to Orthodoxy, but on the other hand, they can be loud, ask so many questions that you want to pull a Magneto and pluck their fillings out, and feel like they have to do weird things like throw their former churches off the bus and try to prove how Orthodox they are. After only a few months they fancy themselves Jedi Masters of the highest order. They often think they have to know everything and learn Russian or Greek, etc.

Is that because they're converts, though, or is it because they're immature in a more general sense? All young people feel like they know everything, and that adults are somehow in a conspiracy to suppress "logical" conclusions about how the world would run if only the status quo were challenged. Adults eventually realize that the world doesn't fit into neat logical categories, and that for reasons beyond most understanding, human beings need the status quo and tradition. Low-church Protestantism, especially Calvinism, simply enshrines the adolescent worldview and tends to prolong it. As do most forms of modernism. Beyond that, our culture is fed a diet of cinema where, as in The Last Samurai, one can learn an entire different way of life over the course of one winter, or where language programs can teach you enough German in 30 days to where you can read Goethe. But not all non-Orthodox or even all Protestants have that mindset, and I imagine that if you looked at converts from Zen or Anglicanism, the picture is different.

But what I can’t figure out is why I’m 2017 these folks haven’t considered Googling it!?

I can't speak for others, but I prefer to hear the answers of someone I'm building a friendship with. I like the way Kallistos Ware writes, but I don't know who he is through live mannerisms. There's all kinds of nonverbal cues and subtext that add a subtle flavor to a live answer. And sometimes that's instructive. I had a priest one time fumble an argument from the Greek, so that I had to make it for him. It was awkward, and I'm sure he felt embarrassed. But what it taught me was to see that he was too overworked solving the more practical problems in the parish to keep his Greek practiced, which might have driven me, as a fully committed Protestant, to make a snap judgment about the robustness of the Orthodox position, but instead now appeared to me to be evidence of a community that took care of its own, which I found far more attractive than having all the answers (I got my taste of the latter in Calvinism, and it's junk food). You can Google anything, sure. But it's so much more interesting from the horse's mouth.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't doubt that perhaps Anglicans or Lutherans might not be so excited at finding Orthodoxy as an evangelical product of the radical reformation would be. And I'm hesitant to put myself forth as "mature" but the fact is, I count my Christian life as approaching five decades in its broadest sense, twenty years of very serious commitment and study.

Yet Orthodoxy was so very radically different, and answered so many questions, and finally introduced me to the love of God in such a way that I was undone with the rest of them.

Maybe my age or experience prevented me from being catapulted into the worst offenses of convert hyperdoxy, but I wasn't totally immune - not by a very long shot.

But maybe Anglicans or Lutherans might be different.

 

[mothcorrupteth]

I have to admit that I don't see this as being true of high-church Calvinism. There's still just too much preening over how well read you are and how skilled you debate, despite the increased emphasis on Church authority.