Controversial Abortion Thread

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WarriorAngel

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I drew the analogy I did because, living in the Bible Belt as I do (sigh), I see young teens and adults completely turned off by religion every day because of the heavy-handed way it is presented.
But it was an analogy.
....

AHEM!!!
I accept apologies from those who said i was wrong. :)
Do you really think that I should have taken this poor broken woman and told her, "You're a murderer. Repent and you'll feel better." (She was someone I knew in a pregnancy exercise class, and we moved out of state about six months later.) Well, sorry, I wasn't going to make her feel worse than she already did. Instead, I focused on how hard she was focusing on her health and her strength, and tried to reassure her that the baby she was expecting would not die shortly after birth (as the baby she aborted would have.) It was obvious that she had already been tormented enough.


No one has to call someone a murderer. Just listen and it comes out they feel this way inside - already.

Or eventually.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Maybe she was *at the time*. Ask again 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years down the line. After she's had time to confront herself on several issues on several occassions--having to fill out medical paperwork stating that she's had a certain number of pregnancies, the birth of her daughter or son's baby (or a sister's), the fetal pain awareness laws, the "what ifs" and "what might-have-beens" that menopause brings on and so on. Or of course, maybe she didn't want to discuss such a personal issue with you.


At the time I asked, it had already been 10 years.


Jim
 
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JimR-OCDS

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I've never met a pro life person who "delights" in "torturing" women who've had abortions. All the pro life people I've met have spoken to these women with love and compassion.

...


So many times I've heard pro-lifers calling women who have abortions "baby murderers."

Real compassion there.


Jim
 
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WarriorAngel

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Sometimes tho Jim, tough love stops a woman from doing the act. IF they are told it is murder, the chances are better they wont do it.

And of course those who will or do - are the ones without remorse. Until...some day it hits them.
 
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benedictaoo

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Now the pro life advocates are bad.
If it werent for them, i daresay there would be no voice helping women not make a choice that will or could lead them to despair.

I believe it says in the Bible to be a voice for those without one.

You let your mom do tarot cards in your house?

Oh this is what you now finally understand... :doh: Sigh... it was 18 years ago and I allowed before I knew it was wrong. well I knew a little.

I never did get involved in her shenanigans and I know I have said many times my mom has always been into this. This should not be shocking to you or explain anything. Geeze.

Here's what happened, this friend I had, she was into having her cards read and we even went on a trip (gasp) to the French Quarter with her mother to have her cards read there by some women. I wasn't into going to Church back then but I wasn't wild about it and I never did ever think it was "okay"...

Anyway she was into it at that time and she also began to have other weird beliefs like spiritual guides and the like. she was leaning towards new agey stuff.

We had some people die that we knew. She had a friend of hers killed when he tripped and fell on a heavy cement planter that killed him, he was in his early 20's... I had a girl I knew and worked with husband murder her on Good Friday of all days. I wasn't much into the Church thing at all but this of course made me think and her too and she then would discuss with me new age stuff and I went the other route with Catholicism.

So I would never have my mother come over to read anybody's cards again... but my mother did live with me a few times and she had her cards with her and I told her just keep away from me.

I mean does this still explain me to you? would else would you like to know, since its all personal about me.

and for the record, no one said the pro life movement is bad... just that its not as effective as YOU believe it is.
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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Sometimes tho Jim, tough love stops a woman from doing the act. IF they are told it is murder, the chances are better they wont do it.

And of course those who will or do - are the ones without remorse. Until...some day it hits them.


Interestingly on this board that kind of "tough love" is called "flaming"

Maybe mods in the real world wouldn't be a bad idea.
 
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Fantine

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If women voluntarily enter pro-life pregnancy centers or join programs like Project Rachel, ten they are actively seeking the help of these groups.

When, on the other hand, sidewalk counselors and picketers approach them, most women feel, at best, that they are well-meaning busybodies, and, at worst, abusive.

After all, they know absolutely nothing about the woman's life, circumstances, personality, or religious or moral beliefs, and nothing about the events that brought her to that particular location at that particular time. I have seen and heard pro-life volunteers and workers make catty, uncharitable comments about their clients when their clients are out of earshot--critical of their lifestyle, morals, behavior, etc.--even though they are all sweetness and light when the clients are there.

Women who make the first move themselves might be receptive, but most women aren't.

They think to themselves, "The next time I see you will be at the school budget election when you're voting against my child's education."
 
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Gwendolyn

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You guys, Fantine does have a point.

She is saying what I said, only in different words - that oftentimes, the shock and scare tactics that pro-life groups use are counterproductive. If you holler at women on sidewalks, assault them with violent images, call the murderers and such, they won't be likely to listen to your message. They will shut down, and be pushed farther from the truth. For a small minority, that form of harassment might work. And yes, I have seen pro-life groups yelling during life-chains or other protests - yelling angrily about how abortion is murder. It does nothing but completely turn off nearly everyone who walks by.

Like I mentioned, a more effective route would be to build a personal connection with women. Calm, genuine, concerned. Not trying to frighten them into guilt and depression. Maybe healing might come of that, but scare tactics are not the best way to go about spreading the pro-life message.

mdancin's testimony is an example of a calm, effective approach:

I stand at college campuses holding a sign, "I regret the abortion I had please ask me why." I do this with the group, Silent No More.

The Lord has blessed by life on days that I do this. The people, men, women, grandmothers....fathers that line up to share their stories are simply amazing. The hurt that goes on because of abortion...that does not even involve the woman is tremendous. So abortion not only affect the one who is ripped about in the womb...or the one who paid to have it done, or the one who did the ripping.....it affects those in the womans families. They lost a son or daughter, a sister or brother or a grandbaby....etc.
Abortion does not just affect those directly involved..but indirectly.

This would promote curiosity. This would build a personal connection. It is thought-provoking and obviously effective, since mdancin mentions that she is always approached by people willing to talk.

mdancin, you are a wonderful witness, and I am glad that you have been able to find strength and solace in your pain. God bless you.
 
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Erose

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If women voluntarily enter pro-life pregnancy centers or join programs like Project Rachel, ten they are actively seeking the help of these groups.

When, on the other hand, sidewalk counselors and picketers approach them, most women feel, at best, that they are well-meaning busybodies, and, at worst, abusive.

After all, they know absolutely nothing about the woman's life, circumstances, personality, or religious or moral beliefs, and nothing about the events that brought her to that particular location at that particular time. I have seen and heard pro-life volunteers and workers make catty, uncharitable comments about their clients when their clients are out of earshot--critical of their lifestyle, morals, behavior, etc.--even though they are all sweetness and light when the clients are there.

Women who make the first move themselves might be receptive, but most women aren't.

They think to themselves, "The next time I see you will be at the school budget election when you're voting against my child's education."
Have you ever been to one of these prayer vigils outside an abortion clinic? Have you? It sounds like you haven't been and all you are going off of is what the media and the pro-death groups want people to believe what happens there.

You don't have people calling these women anything. Normally they are holding up signs telling them that there are options, because most of these girls going to these murder clinics don't think they have any other option. They are being forced into this by a parent, boyfriend, etc.

I have talked to those that do these pretty regular and they will tell that every once in a while they will actually have a woman come out of the murder clinic and tell them thank you for helping them decide to keep their baby.

If these prayer vigils saves one in hundred babies or one in a thousand babies, we need to uphold these men and women who are peacefully and prayerfully holding these prayer vigils as heroes. Because unlike most of us out here they are saving lives.
 
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Erose

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You guys, Fantine does have a point.

She is saying what I said, only in different words - that oftentimes, the shock and scare tactics that pro-life groups use are counterproductive. If you holler at women on sidewalks, assault them with violent images, call the murderers and such, they won't be likely to listen to your message. They will shut down, and be pushed farther from the truth. For a small minority, that form of harassment might work. And yes, I have seen pro-life groups yelling during life-chains or other protests - yelling angrily about how abortion is murder. It does nothing but completely turn off nearly everyone who walks by.

Like I mentioned, a more effective route would be to build a personal connection with women. Calm, genuine, concerned. Not trying to frighten them into guilt and depression. Maybe healing might come of that, but scare tactics are not the best way to go about spreading the pro-life message.

mdancin's testimony is an example of a calm, effective approach:



This would promote curiosity. This would build a personal connection. It is thought-provoking and obviously effective, since mdancin mentions that she is always approached by people willing to talk.

mdancin, you are a wonderful witness, and I am glad that you have been able to find strength and solace in your pain. God bless you.
There may be some protestant groups that do this but at Catholic ones there is not this animosity. Normally they stand and pray. They hold up signs telling these women that they do have a choice. They can choose the life of their child. You ask any of the Right To Life groups and they will tell you the same thing you are saying. You just can't browbeat these women because it doesn't work. So they use prayer vigils. They tell these women that they do have a choice because most of them don't think they do. And these people saves lives.
 
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Fantine

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No, I have never been to or picketed outside an abortion clinic. The nearest one to my home is a three hour drive, and so obviously, even if I thought that such actions were helpful (and I don't) it would be impractical to participate.

I donate to pregnancy help centers, because I think that they are a better way to help young mothers, and they help for the long haul, providing education, counseling, car seats, diapers, etc.

I am not entirely comfortable with politicizing prayer. I do participate in a prayerful witness for peace every month, but we don't pray outside military bases or federal buildings. We pray in a park on a busy street corner.

If we believe in the efficacy of prayer, then our location shouldn't matter. If we do it at certain locations, we are hoping it will have a coercive effect.
 
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Gwendolyn

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There may be some protestant groups that do this but at Catholic ones there is not this animosity. Normally they stand and pray. They hold up signs telling these women that they do have a choice. They can choose the life of their child. You ask any of the Right To Life groups and they will tell you the same thing you are saying. You just can't browbeat these women because it doesn't work. So they use prayer vigils. They tell these women that they do have a choice because most of them don't think they do. And these people saves lives.

The Catholic groups are the ones who have used tactics like the ones I described. At least, those are groups I have seen with my own eyes.
 
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AMDG

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The Catholic groups are the ones who have used tactics like the ones I described. At least, those are groups I have seen with my own eyes.

But several of us have said that we haven't seen what you claim to have. We *have* the Silent No More Awareness. You have even heard one testimony. We *have* seen (and I know I participate) in the crisis birth centers where women are *given* various means that not only allow them to keep their babies, but provide a little something for their families (if they have them.) I personally know kind people who travel far out of their way to simply *pray* at the uncaring abortion mills around me and I *know* of kind priests who have been jailed *just* for praying--not saying anything and definitely not blocking public access. I *know* kind couples in my parish who open their homes to women who find themselves with a unexpected pregnancy. I know the Knights of Columbus pro-life groups and know that they even provide a proper burial for the aborted baby (instead of being just tossed in the trash.) I *know* the organized effort of priestsforlife (www.priestsforlife.com ) and even their television show. And I have been an invited presence as a doctor informed a woman of her pregancy and *in the same breath, without any sort of information at all* wanted to schedule an abortion. (I can tell you that it wasn't a good scene, but I can also tell you that the woman had a lovely little girl months later.) I guess I'm trying to say is that there are many, many pro-life groups (some even work behind the scenes) and you can't really paint them all with the same brush. (You can't always believe what the television portrays. Remember that the television shows have an agenda of killing babies--of being pro-abortion--no matter the cost and the cost is the women and babies.)
 
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MikeK

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Whatever we're doing, it's clear that it's been a failure. Certain European countries with similar access to abortion have lower abortion rates in spite of having less Christian pro-life folks performing the actions that North Americans would recognise as the typical pro-life behaviors - prayer vigils, holding up signs - either tasteful or vulgar, etc.
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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Whatever we're doing, it's clear that it's been a failure. Certain European countries with similar access to abortion have lower abortion rates in spite of having less Christian pro-life folks performing the actions that North Americans would recognise as the typical pro-life behaviors - prayer vigils, holding up signs - either tasteful or vulgar, etc.

And, despite the fact that their are those Christians in this country who won't vote Democratic because the Republican platform is more pro-life, abortions actually go down during Democratic adminstrations.

It is a puzzlement to me why the people responsible for coming up with strategy for the pro-life movement haven't take a step back, looked around and decided that they need to adjust their focus because they are getting nowhere.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Understand what?
You were talking about family sins and weird stuff...going on.
Interestingly on this board that kind of "tough love" is called "flaming"

Maybe mods in the real world wouldn't be a bad idea.
:D
Whatever we're doing, it's clear that it's been a failure. Certain European countries with similar access to abortion have lower abortion rates in spite of having less Christian pro-life folks performing the actions that North Americans would recognise as the typical pro-life behaviors - prayer vigils, holding up signs - either tasteful or vulgar, etc.

Tasteful.
Prayer vigils have been working in US
 
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Fantine

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I personally know kind people who travel far out of their way to simply *pray* at the uncaring abortion mills around me

Kind people who don't know much about time management.

I am certain that people who live far from abortion clinics and who nevertheless want to encourage young mothers to choose life can do so through supporting local pregnancy help clinics. And I know that God listens to our prayers no matter where we are praying.
 
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mdancin4theLord

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I am a firm believer in emotional healing, mdancin4theLord.

I am just concerned that most of the emotional scars women who have had abortions bear in secrecy and shame have been inflicted by some in the pro-life movement who claim to love these women but delight in torturing them.

It never occurs to us when we eat a hamburger that cows are sacred to Hindus....but if we had Hindus picketing McDonald's and calling us murderers and offering sidewalk counseling to encourage us to be vegetarians, we sure would.

We might even take to cooking burgers at home on our grills silently and guiltily. We would hide them in sturdy brown paper bags if we bought them in the supermarket.

But would we really feel guilty? Would we really believe that cows were sacred? Probably not. We would feel harassed and browbeaten and resentful and angry---and none of those are emotions that are likely to lead to conversion of heart.

Do you work in this field to know this? I respectfully disagree. I work with many groups...and have never in eleven years full time work.......NEVER BEEN YELLED AT...NEVER BEEN DEMEANED.......NEVER LOOKED DOWN ON. If anyone understands its my pro-life sisters and brothers. They are a constant support for me...my testimony and the message I want to give. I am not the only one who works the lines...who has had an abortion. A large number of women do this kind of work...BECAUSE of what they did. So no...what you say....I don't beleive it, never have seen it. I work with a group called Silent No More....most of us have had abortions.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE TORTURED.....NEVER. WE would never allow anyone to do this in any of the pro-life groups I have been a part of. NEVER.

You can not compare a cow to a woman...or a living human being. That is not the subject here.
You are stating things that in my experience........don't happen. I have prayed at abortion mills all over the country........we dont scream or call women names. How many have you been to?

The truth is the truth and will never change. Abortion is murder in Gods eyes. ARe you suggesting that we lie to women to make them feel comfortable about what they did or might do? Surely you are not suggesting that. But from your post....it seems like this is your direction. Correct me if I am wrong. We need as a pro-life community to minister to anyone affected by abortion....that goes for the woman, the abortionist...and families. BUT NEVER NEVER SHOULD WE COVER UP THE TRUTH....about the realities of abortion.
 
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AMDG

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I am certain that people who live far from abortion clinics and who nevertheless want to encourage young mothers to choose life can do so through supporting local pregnancy help clinics.

Where I live, lots of things that seem far away to others, are local to us. One gets used to it to the point where I was visiting people in New York, the other year and I couldn't get over the fact that the Church was only five minutes away and if a person wanted, he could *walk* to it. Here it's at least a half hour away by car. Same thing with the abortion mills.

But if you want, I believe priestsforlife still matches up parishes with various local abortion mills (and provides a prayer too.)
 
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