Controversial Abortion Thread

[Fantine]

I am a firm believer in emotional healing, mdancin4theLord.

I am just concerned that most of the emotional scars women who have had abortions bear in secrecy and shame have been inflicted by some in the pro-life movement who claim to love these women but delight in torturing them.

It never occurs to us when we eat a hamburger that cows are sacred to Hindus....but if we had Hindus picketing McDonald's and calling us murderers and offering sidewalk counseling to encourage us to be vegetarians, we sure would.

We might even take to cooking burgers at home on our grills silently and guiltily. We would hide them in sturdy brown paper bags if we bought them in the supermarket.

But would we really feel guilty? Would we really believe that cows were sacred? Probably not. We would feel harassed and browbeaten and resentful and angry---and none of those are emotions that are likely to lead to conversion of heart.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I am a firm believer in emotional healing, mdancin4theLord.

I am just concerned that most of the emotional scars women who have had abortions bear in secrecy and shame have been inflicted by some in the pro-life movement who claim to love these women but delight in torturing them.

It never occurs to us when we eat a hamburger that cows are sacred to Hindus....but if we had Hindus picketing McDonald's and calling us murderers and offering sidewalk counseling to encourage us to be vegetarians, we sure would.

We might even take to cooking burgers at home on our grills silently and guiltily. We would hide them in sturdy brown paper bags if we bought them in the supermarket.

But would we really feel guilty? Would we really believe that cows were sacred? Probably not. We would feel harassed and browbeaten and resentful and angry---and none of those are emotions that are likely to lead to conversion of heart.

SO we can compare a little baby to hamburger.
Wow.

And no Fantine, you are mistaken.

I know women who aborted and felt immediate guilt who are not religious and dont care what pro life groups say or said.
Its all a part of actually BEING human that they feel guilt.

They just flushed away their child. No one makes anyone grow a conscience. Its innately how we are created.

 

[WarriorAngel]

if they have not repented of the murder of their own offspring, then while they might have healed on an emotional leval and a psychological leval they would still be hurt spiritualy and their soul at grave risk if they do not repent
people who are messed up look for help
but those who have rebuilt their lives might be foolish enough to believe that they do not need God and His mercy and forgivness, they are at more risk then those who are in pain

Indeed they cannot heal and find closure til they admit it. And they wont admit it til its possibly too late?

How can a woman have closure if she even denies she ever did such a thing?

I remember St Pio made a woman admit to her abortion eventually. He kept asking her what else she wanted to confess. I have to look that up.
But a woman isnt right with the Lord til she confesses and with a contrite heart.

Usually the ones who are contrite - convert their hearts and fight against abortion and its evil.
Telling other women before they do it - that their whole lives will be one of regret and pain.

And then some, still in denial, are pro choice.
In another forum a woman was pro choice - til i talked to her in pm's and asked if she had one and admitted it was painful why she would want other women to go through what she did.

She broke down and her heart changed and she left the forum to change her life. It was a wound that didnt heal for her until she finally knew her power was not in helping other women feel such remorse, but in helping them avoid it.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

WarriorAngel

SO we can compare a little baby to hamburger.
Wow.

This is a red hering. Fantine never made the comparison.

I know women who aborted and felt immediate guilt who are not religious and dont care what pro life groups say or said.
Its all a part of actually BEING human that they feel guilt.

They just flushed away their child. No one makes anyone grow a conscience. Its innately how we are created.

The only woman I know who admitted to me that she had an abortion, felt no regret whatsoever.

She had just immigrated from the former Soviet Union to Israel with her husband and two children when became pregnant. Her and her husband didn't feel they could handle another child so she had an abortion.

Now, I didn't agree with her decision, and I asked if she ever thought about the child and what he/she could have become? She said no, and she felt it was the right decision. She had no regrets.

Was she totally honest with me? I don't know, but she seemed sincere.

Jim

 

[WarriorAngel]

WarriorAngel



This is a red hering. Fantine never made the comparison.

Really.
Cos she was talking about healing and how mean pro lifers are - then leading to how about how Hindu's feel and sacred cows.
Where i come from - its a blatant comparison.

I am a firm believer in emotional healing, mdancin4theLord.

I am just concerned that most of the emotional scars women who have had abortions bear in secrecy and shame have been inflicted by some in the pro-life movement who claim to love these women but delight in torturing them.

It never occurs to us when we eat a hamburger that cows are sacred to Hindus....

The only woman I know who admitted to me that she had an abortion, felt no regret whatsoever.

She had just immigrated from the former Soviet Union to Israel with her husband and two children when became pregnant. Her and her husband didn't feel they could handle another child so she had an abortion.

Now, I didn't agree with her decision, and I asked if she ever thought about the child and what he/she could have become? She said no, and she felt it was the right decision. She had no regrets.

Was she totally honest with me? I don't know, but she seemed sincere.

Jim

Some women dont let it affect them for 25 years. Maybe more. I think the best thing for them is breaking down and crying...
Its unnatural and unhealthy to be so cold about killing their own child.

I guess when they need God the most, this will be part of their experience.

 

[AMDG]

Was she totally honest with me? I don't know, but she seemed sincere.

Maybe she was *at the time*. Ask again 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years down the line. After she's had time to confront herself on several issues on several occassions--having to fill out medical paperwork stating that she's had a certain number of pregnancies, the birth of her daughter or son's baby (or a sister's), the fetal pain awareness laws, the "what ifs" and "what might-have-beens" that menopause brings on and so on. Or of course, maybe she didn't want to discuss such a personal issue with you.

 

[benedictaoo]

What does she look like? There are lots of jobs in Wisconsin.

She needs a place to live, literally. She lives in a small town in Indiana and I'm sure she could find work in Indianapolis or another large city closer to her children that she will be leaving behind. She has no where to live, no money what so ever, her children are living with their daddies. yes, plural.

She wants to come here, stay with us and find a job and get back on her feet and then hopefully move out so she can send for her children.

In her situation, she has no skills, just a GED. New Orleans metro area is a service industry, she could get work here and from what I'm hearing, aid from the state is a lot better than in other states, so she could make it but I would want more for her, continue her education, learn a skill/trade.

 

[benedictaoo]

I know a woman who had 2 or was it 3 abortions who for 25 years didnt act remorseful.
Then one day.... like a dam broke and she finally discovered the guilt she had hidden all those years surfaced and she finally felt her heart was broken.

i hope the family member I have who had 4 to 5 would finally break like a dam... maybe her abortions is why she is so mean. But she was mean like that before she had them... so.

She's just a mean nasty person but in her mind she is a wonderful person and her abortions were, well "God forgives" and she is very could care less about it.

Its been for her i don't know, 28 years now since her last one... I hope one day it does hit her so she can stop being such a mean person.

It makes me wonder how many more like her are out there.

 

[benedictaoo]

All of this is statistical data. Now grant alot of these issues such as drug abuse or selecting a bad husband or whatever may have just as much to do with their lifestyles before and after they murdered their child.

The depression comes to those that feel some level of guilt for what they did. I haven't seen any statistics on this if there is any, but if I had to guess those women that are more prone to go through depression immediately after an abortion are probably those that really wanted to keep their child but were forced into having an abortion by their parent(s), boyfriend, friends, etc.

Guilt comes from realizing you did something wrong. If you don't think you did anything wrong there is no reason to have guilt. Many of the women you are talking about that are not depressed don't think they did anything wrong. In their mind they have done nothing wrong. It isn't until after they learn somewhere along the line that they did do a great evil that guilt may set in. But until they feel that conviction...

Like I said, don't take these comments as they happen 100% of the time, but rather that statistically the woman's chances increase in having one or more of these issues. That is all.

exactly.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I am a firm believer in emotional healing, mdancin4theLord.

I am just concerned that most of the emotional scars women who have had abortions bear in secrecy and shame have been inflicted by some in the pro-life movement who claim to love these women but delight in torturing them..

I've never met a pro life person who "delights" in "torturing" women who've had abortions. All the pro life people I've met have spoken to these women with love and compassion.

Are you really saying that the emotional scars women have from having abortions, don't come from their babies being killed inside their womb with metal instruments, - but from people who try to tell them to ask God for forgiveness and find healing?

:o

I hope I've misunderstood...

 

[benedictaoo]

SO we can compare a little baby to hamburger.
Wow.

And no Fantine, you are mistaken.

I know women who aborted and felt immediate guilt who are not religious and dont care what pro life groups say or said.
Its all a part of actually BEING human that they feel guilt.

They just flushed away their child. No one makes anyone grow a conscience. Its innately how we are created.

No she wasn't... she was trying to get her point across and get you all to think.

She was saying that when you think you are not doing anything wrong- the tactics do not work and can do more harm then good- as in it can back fire.

I agree fantine.

If Hindus started coming at me ranting about how I'm killing their sacred cow, I'd be like, yeah and? I'd tell them where to go. They already ruined the fries at McDonald's.

I would be no more moved by their cow beliefs because I do not share them and since they messed with the fries, I'm already aggravated with them.

The people who do not think abortion is wrong regardless if its a baby or not to them... they are going to just be annoyed by rhetoric that says they're a murderer and they they committed murder.

One day they may feel guilt but we need to save babies NOW... we need to find an approach that works. We can't wait for them to be sorry 25 years later.

This thread is cracking me up becuase no one here is defending abortion or saying women do not suffer or feel guilt, just that not all do.

We are saying the pro life movement is not working and y'all are insisting it is and, how many daily are being aborted?

'Snot workin', formulate a new plan.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

If the movement would aggresesivley pursue what is wrongly (and rather cyncially) referreed to as "socialist" policies it would go long way to convincing people that pro-life means something other then: You will do with your body what we say.

The pro life movement doesn't tell anyone "you will do with your body what we say".. the message is that: we're not just talking about your body. There's another person here - the unborn baby - so it's not a matter of "I can do whatever I want with my body".

Amen... crisis clinics need professional therapists-- not born again volunteers who can offer real solutions and not, you'll be a murder if you kill the baby and you'll burn in hell.

Sometimes I feel, and this is just a general statement and I know not every pro lifer is this way but sometimes I feel the movement is about the movement and not about the PERSON.

On both sides, its about them and not about the women. Norma, what her last name... the RvW women, she was right to fear the other side using her the way the pro choice side did. Because that's what both sides do.

So there is an agenda also in the part of the abortion mills and it is about making money and its not about improving women's live... also, my opinion.

we need pro life reform.

I don't know this hasn't really been my experience.... at the parish where I became Catholic, there are people involved in an organization where they help young pregnant women especially those who were kicked out of the house/ran away because they got pregnant. They give them a place to live and help them find a job and learn how to take care of the baby; or they find someone to adopt the baby. I also read stories about people who were volunteering at the abortion clinics but they offered the women ways to help them, etc... maybe some pro lifers are like what you described but I haven't really met any like that? The ones I've met, they also try to speak with compassion, not just threatening them with hell.

 

[AMDG]

If Hindus started coming at me ranting about how I'm killing their sacred cow, I'd be like, yeah and? I'd tell them where to go. They already ruined the fries at McDonald's.

Nah. That wasn't the Hindus. That's the Progressives--the ones who admire Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, who decided that we all should kill babies (especially the babies of those who she considered deficient) through abortion. I guess that Progressives not only dislike women and children, but MacDonald's fries too.

 

[benedictaoo]

Now, I didn't agree with her decision, and I asked if she ever thought about the child and what he/she could have become? She said no, and she felt it was the right decision. She had no regrets.

Was she totally honest with me? I don't know, but she seemed sincere.

That has been my experience as well with a few ppl. One close friend of mine told me she had an abortion when she was in high school and that was the best choice she made because having the baby would have "ruined my life". and she said that.


It was actually a funny (more like sad) story how I came to learn about the abortion she had... she was at my house and my mother was reading her tarot cards and my mom tells her she sees a possible lost child and i thought it was referring to a miscarriage and she said, no, I had an abortion.

another friend who had an abortion from a guy she barley knew, that's why she had the abortion- she didn't know the guy, I don't know if she ever became guilty about it... but her sister had one in high school as well from her boyfriend and she ended up marrying and having other kids with. Her sister told me they were young, in school and no way they could have a baby and they are fine with the choice. they feel it was best.

 

[AMDG]

The pro life movement doesn't tell anyone "you will do with your body what we say".. the message is that: we're not just talking about your body. There's another person here - the unborn baby - so it's not a matter of "I can do whatever I want with my body".



I don't know this hasn't really been my experience.... at the parish where I became Catholic, there are people involved in an organization where they help young pregnant women especially those who were kicked out of the house/ran away because they got pregnant. They give them a place to live and help them find a job and learn how to take care of the baby; or they find someone to adopt the baby. I also read stories about people who were volunteering at the abortion clinics but they offered the women ways to help them, etc... maybe some pro lifers are like what you described but I haven't really met any like that? The ones I've met, they also try to speak with compassion, not just threatening them with hell.

Same here.

 

[benedictaoo]

Really.

Really and truly.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Now the pro life advocates are bad.
If it werent for them, i daresay there would be no voice helping women not make a choice that will or could lead them to despair.

I believe it says in the Bible to be a voice for those without one.

You let your mom do tarot cards in your house?

 

[WarriorAngel]

NOW i understand Bene. Now i understand.

 

[Fantine]

I drew the analogy I did because, living in the Bible Belt as I do (sigh), I see young teens and adults completely turned off by religion every day because of the heavy-handed way it is presented.

I, too, have known a few women who had abortions. The ones who had it for the most trivial reasons were the least affected (they later went on to have children and became loving, exemplary parents.)

The one who was most affected was the one who didn't want to have an abortion. Her fetus had been diagnosed with microcephaly. Her other choice would have been to carry him to turn and bury him a day or two later. She was completely unhinged because she and her husband had desperately wanted a baby.

And maybe that's an indication about those who feel the guiltiest...the ones who feel the guiltiest are the ones who really wanted their babies and were pressured into having abortions. I.E. (listen up) the ones that even the most hard-core pro-lifers would be unable to characterize as "murderers."

Do you really think that I should have taken this poor broken woman and told her, "You're a murderer. Repent and you'll feel better." (She was someone I knew in a pregnancy exercise class, and we moved out of state about six months later.) Well, sorry, I wasn't going to make her feel worse than she already did. Instead, I focused on how hard she was focusing on her health and her strength, and tried to reassure her that the baby she was expecting would not die shortly after birth (as the baby she aborted would have.) It was obvious that she had already been tormented enough.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I drew the analogy I did because, living in the Bible Belt as I do (sigh), I see young teens and adults completely turned off by religion every day because of the heavy-handed way it is presented.

I, too, have known a few women who had abortions. The ones who had it for the most trivial reasons were the least affected (they later went on to have children and became loving, exemplary parents.)

The one who was most affected was the one who didn't want to have an abortion. Her fetus had been diagnosed with microcephaly. Her other choice would have been to carry him to turn and bury him a day or two later. She was completely unhinged because she and her husband had desperately wanted a baby.

And maybe that's an indication about those who feel the guiltiest...the ones who feel the guiltiest are the ones who really wanted their babies and were pressured into having abortions. I.E. (listen up) the ones that even the most hard-core pro-lifers would be unable to characterize as "murderers."

Do you really think that I should have taken this poor broken woman and told her, "You're a murderer. Repent and you'll feel better." (She was someone I knew in a pregnancy exercise class, and we moved out of state about six months later.) Well, sorry, I wasn't going to make her feel worse than she already did. Instead, I focused on how hard she was focusing on her health and her strength, and tried to reassure her that the baby she was expecting would not die shortly after birth (as the baby she aborted would have.) It was obvious that she had already been tormented enough.

Not the women i know.
They were all in their early 20's [back in the day] and didnt want to be tied down.

It took them time til it dawned on them - they killed their child. Just one day - boom there it was.

O and one girl i know had a partial birth abortion - not thinking one thing while going in but she saw her baby's face as they were taking her away and she was despairing. She knew at that moment - she did something horrible. She said her baby looked like a little angel.