Controversial Abortion Thread

[Fantine]

How do you know they haven't repented? Because they aren't wearing the obligatory scarlet letter for the rest of their lives?

Because they aren't doing community service in high schools?

Because they haven't loaded their trunk up with placards to keep other women from having abortions?

They are dealing with their repentance and their current life effectively.

BTW, last time I red the catechism, the degree of personal responsibility for wrongdoing was affected by factors such as duress. You have no idea of the pressures these women you call murderers might have had to endure at the time they had their abortions.

 

[Gwendolyn]

And, while there are hurting people out there--the poor, the homeless, the unemployed, the immigrants, the sick, etc., etc., etc. you would rather "minister" to women until you feel they've said, "*I'm a murderer" enough times for you to be satisfied?

Uh, me, personally? No. I just made the post because I am so frustrated with pro-life groups who want to tout statistics about how women who have abortions are so miserable, suffering from depression or bad relationships or what have you... which I don't believe are anywhere near as common as pro-life groups would like us to believe. I wanted to know how such groups would address the women who have no guilt about the choice they made, when they do not exhibit any of the misery that pro-life groups want us to believe that all women will have after an abortion.

Personally, I dislike almost all tactics used by pro-life groups to gain converts because I don't think they really work. Holding up signs calling women murderers, with pictures of eviscerated fetuses (which are often misleading), warning them of the inevitable darkness and misery that awaits them if they have an abortion... shock and scare tactics at best.

If pro-life groups want their voice to be heard, they need to make personal connections with the women. Support groups that offer more than vague promises and assurances of having made the right decision. Social programs that can actually support young, unwed mothers and offer them assistance. Since many statistics indicate that abortion is highest among women who already have children, maybe some programs in place to help families in financial difficulty (not welfare).

When I asked the question, "How do you minister to them?" to the Ottawa group, they treated me like I was pro-abortion and gave me the standard lines about how abortion kills babies. It was insulting to me - did they think that, as a Catholic, I don't already know everything about pro-life arguments and such?

In order to truly protect and support life, the movement has to do much more than talking and arguing and convincing. Once you get a woman out of the abortion clinic, that is only the beginning! What is she going to do when the baby is born? How will she finish her education? How will she find the funds to feed another mouth? Who will help her through the loneliness and isolation that often accompanies the raising of a first child? It isn't a real success at all unless that life that was "saved" from abortion can grow and flourish.

 

[Rhamiel]

How do you know they haven't repented? Because they aren't wearing the obligatory scarlet letter for the rest of their lives?

Because they aren't doing community service in high schools?

Because they haven't loaded their trunk up with placards to keep other women from having abortions?

They are dealing with their repentance and their current life effectively.

BTW, last time I red the catechism, the degree of personal responsibility for wrongdoing was affected by factors such as duress. You have no idea of the pressures these women you call murderers might have had to endure at the time they had their abortions.

I understand that outside influences can take away some of the culpability of sin
but we should not rest too much on this as to insult human dignity and the freedom given to us by Christ
anyways, you will notice in my post I did not damn anyone to hell
i said that sin hurts the soul and that grave sins put the soul at risk, I did not even say if it was a mortal sin or not because I do not know what they were going through and thus can not judge

if they have repented and have gone on with their lives well that is good, if they have then they do not really need to be ministered too, if they have not repented then they are in grave danger
murder is a very serious sin

 

[Fantine]

That was a beautiful post, Gwendolyn, one that I agree with wholeheartedly.

Mistakes and sins and difficulties can be an opportunity for growth. God wants us to be beautiful tapestries, but that doesn't mean that there aren't lots of knots on the underside. He sees the beautiful people we are becoming, and sometimes we only see the knots.

Through the mistake of her abortion, a woman may learn to cherish her future children. She may become more compassionate towards other women. She may learn how to be more prudent, and how to make better decisions. God can make a beautiful life built on early mistakes.

If these women who have had abortions are happy now, maybe it was because they cooperated with God's grace and learned life lessons that make them better people.

May we all grow from our mistakes, and may we grow to be more loving people.

 

[Rhamiel]

That was a beautiful post, Gwendolyn, one that I agree with wholeheartedly.

Mistakes and sins and difficulties can be an opportunity for growth. God wants us to be beautiful tapestries, but that doesn't mean that there aren't lots of knots on the underside. He sees the beautiful people we are becoming, and sometimes we only see the knots.

Through the mistake of her abortion, a woman may learn to cherish her future children. She may become more compassionate towards other women. She may learn how to be more prudent, and how to make better decisions. God can make a beautiful life built on early mistakes.

If these women who have had abortions are happy now, maybe it was because they cooperated with God's grace and learned life lessons that make them better people.

May we all grow from our mistakes, and may we grow to be more loving people.

well said
God is greater then any sin and He loves us so very very much
part of cooperation with God's grace is to repent of sins

 

[benedictaoo]

it does not matter if the unborn can feel pain or not
we are not human based on when we feel pain or else anyone on painkillers would be a non-person

Its not being argued that they are not people... I will not allow these posters points to be misconstrued as they have been in the past.

The point is and its a real simple one... all the rhetoric of the pro life movement that they claimed was based on scientific research and studies is being debunked.

So stop thinking this way to go about it is working or going to work one day... its not- time to formulate a new plan instead of still going with this stuff becuase it is /has been debunked.. even pro life Catholics look at it and laugh.

The reality is not every women will have an abortion and have a nervous mental break down from it- the point that is being made here is abortion does not automatically = mental break down.

I believe it can damage a women very severally and I think some women, it won't.

it is my belief that it depends on the type of person each one is.

So the moral of this thread is, how do we minster now, now that we are beginning to find out all the other stuff we been claiming is not always true?

Not every women will have a breakdown... not eery women will be moved by the fact the baby is really alive and that it feels pain...

 

[MikeK]

One idea I've had would be for pro-life groups to stop seeking out picketers to join their groups outside of abortion centers and instead seek out married couples who would be willing to adopt a child in danger of being killed - and who among us wouldn't do that? I think standing with your spouse quietly and holding a sign that says "We love your child, we would appreciate the honor of raising it and we promise before God to do all we can to see to it that this child is brought up right." would be more effective than holding up a picture of a chopped-up child. Why not focus on love? There are plenty of Catholics couples who are sterile, who elected to contracept their own chances at children away, who are post-menopausal, or who are just plain willing to set one more place at the dinner table if it will save a life.

I feel a bit of guilt about that. Why don't I try to adopt one of these children who are at risk of being killed? I think the truth is, I don't want to raise them any more than their mothers do...and I think that makes me a pretty cruddy person.

 

[EDB]

Women who have abortions 'face double the risk of mental health problems' | Mail Online

 

[AMDG]

I just made the post because I am so frustrated with pro-life groups who want to tout statistics about how women who have abortions are so miserable, suffering from depression or bad relationships or what have you... which I don't believe are anywhere near as common as pro-life groups would like us to believe.

It's the women and men (yes, men suffer too) *themselves* who have decided to come up with the statistics you hate so much.

Interested in not just the pro-choice propoganda? Read the real stories on here. Abortion - Silent No More Awareness Campaign - Regional Coordinators

 

[Fantine]

it is my belief that it depends on the type of person each one is.

I agree...but that's not because one woman is a "selfish jerk" while another is a "spiritual seeker."

What's more likely is that ability to move forward is dependent on their basic genetic makeup, the amount of support they have before and after their decision (i.e. the unconditional love they receive), the situations surrounding the unplanned pregnancy, etc.

But in every case, moving forward is a positive thing.

In every case, rebuilding one's life, especially if there are other children who are dependent on their mother, is a positive thing.

And while a period of evaluation, which might include regret or grieving, is probably necessary and helpful in rebuilding one's life, a prolonged period of depression or guilt is a matter of concern.

We shouldn't hope that women become paralyzed by guilt, or condemn women who aren't. We should hope that their abortion will encourage them to make better decisions, especially in terms of their relationships.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Unborn babies can feel pain during abortion

Really? You don't know?

The Silent Scream – Ultrasound Video of a Baby Being Brutally Aborted « LEADING MALAYSIAN NEOCON

You want to play dueling links now ?

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/PPFA/Facts_Speak_Louder_than_the_Silent_Scream_03-02.pdf

And before you go all "It's planned parenthood" on me I'd point out that they at least have sceince to back this up and the two links you provided weren't exactly unbiased.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Women who have abortions 'face double the risk of mental health problems' | Mail Online

It would be nice if the study was available, if the results of the peer review were in the article and if the article noted that the author of the study is known to be inconsistent in her work.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Look, I'm pretty much backing out of this thread. Mainly because I think the OP's point has be made for her by the content of this thread.

 

[AMDG]

One idea I've had would be for pro-life groups to stop seeking out picketers to join their groups outside of abortion centers and instead seek out married couples who would be willing to adopt a child in danger of being killed - and who among us wouldn't do that?

Although that *sounds* like a nice answer, it isn't. Read the stories on that link about Silent No More. Many of the women knew that their babies would be cared for. (And I know that should a woman decide to keep her baby, I know personally that just about all of the crises birth centers offer baby food, clothes, even baby furniture--not just diapers and receiving blankets. BTW sometimes clothes for other members of the family are also given out. And of course there is one-on-one counseling, as well as some medical information and/or care.) It is not from lack of help that the women choose death.

And look at your church bulletin--I bet there's some sort of mention of Rachel's Vineyard. It's a after-abortion (sometimes years and years after) care group.

 

[AMDG]

You want to play dueling links now ?

No, Charlie. I was answering questions.

 

[benedictaoo]

isn't it better to minister to people who are openly hurting instead of reopening the wounds of people who have healed, for whatever reason?

But I guess if they don't go through the Catholic channels of healing which is also repentance and then become out spoken about all the pain they endured and the horrific sin they committed, they weren't healed.

I get what your saying and I don't necessarily disagree. But at the same time women can heal emotionally from having an abortion and not repent or think they have done something morally/religiously wrong.

Its just not a one size fits all thing. All of our rhetoric is just not going to appeal to a lot of these women.

Not every women who had an abortion is going to wake up in the middle of the night 10 years later in a cold sweat screaming, "my God what have I done"! But some will.

I think some women who do feel guilt somewhere in them will suppress it and that suppression won't interfere with their lives.

and for those who do suffer silently and I do believe there are those who do... how do we let them know help is available with out opening the wounds of those who did heal/repent? But if they healed/repented,then there isn't any opening of any wounds becuase they healed.

So I get what you are saying and I dunno... I think you mean women who had them need to work it out with God and not have all this "women who abort are murders" chirpin in their ears.

But then again, the other side says this chirpin is what brings them to repentance and that brings them to heal... but then again you are saying, they may not be in need of healing and they may have already repented and that's really not our business... so i get it and its just not as easy as one wants to think it is.

We just can't put it in a box.

 

[benedictaoo]

Hey, if it's saving a life, it's saving a life. I'm not about to "look a gift horse in the mouth." Wonder how all those martyrs in heaven begging God to avenge them feel?

well, that might be all its saving "a" life... but thousands might not be saved becuase appealing to emotions might only work on 1 out of every thousand??

are you open to what is being said here?

The plan the pro life movement formulated - guilt, fear, picketing with the flames and and the word "Murder" splashed acrossed, volunteer counseling, the healing/repentance, cancer, depression, spousal abuse, etc... this approach, all emotionally based stuff thrown in with some research that is being debunked, might only save "a" life here and there... but its not working on a large scale and realizing it and trying to corrected it is not against the movement. Its trying to save more than "A" life.

 

[MikeK]

Although that *sounds* like a nice answer, it isn't. Read the stories on that link about Silent No More. Many of the women knew that their babies would be cared for. (And I know that should a woman decide to keep her baby, I know personally that just about all of the crises birth centers offer baby food, clothes, even baby furniture--not just diapers and receiving blankets. BTW sometimes clothes for other members of the family are also given out. And of course there is one-on-one counseling, as well as some medical information and/or care.) It is not from lack of help that the women choose death.

If that's what helps you sleep at night, great. I know that I'm not doing enough - that I am not personally shouldering enough of the burdons of others. What would it hurt to offer to raise a child in danger of being aborted? Maybe not every mother considering an abortion would go for it, but certainly at least some would. Want to help?

 

[MikeK]

The plan the pro life movement formulated - guilt, fear, picketing with the flames and and the word "Murder" splashed acrossed, volunteer counseling, the healing/repentance, cancer, depression, spousal abuse, etc... this approach, all emotionally based stuff thrown in with some research that is being debunked, might only save "a" life here and there... but its not working on a large scale and realizing it and trying to corrected it is not against the movement. Its trying to save more than "A" life.

I fear that certain persons in the pro-life movement may have done more harm than good. Pro-lifers are generally seen by fence-sitters as crazy nutjobs because of our chanting, protesting, dead baby picture hoisting, newspeak ("abortion mill" etc) ways. When we make ourselves look like idiots and the other side just sits there quietly, doing evil but seeming calm, sane and rational - they win the hearts and minds. It sucks.

 

[benedictaoo]

How do you know they haven't repented? Because they aren't wearing the obligatory scarlet letter for the rest of their lives?

Because they aren't doing community service in high schools?

Because they haven't loaded their trunk up with placards to keep other women from having abortions?

They are dealing with their repentance and their current life effectively.

BTW, last time I red the catechism, the degree of personal responsibility for wrongdoing was affected by factors such as duress. You have no idea of the pressures these women you call murderers might have had to endure at the time they had their abortions.

exactly...