LDS Contradictions Regarding Holy Ghost

[BigDaddy4]

It is by faith that we are saved, and by faith we equip ouselves with all good works as we help to build up the KOG.

And that is where you err. The lds thought is that you equip yourselves. The Bible teaches that God equips us. Yours is a work. Ours is by grace.
20Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[fatboys]

And that is where you err. The lds thought is that you equip yourselves. The Bible teaches that God equips us. Yours is a work. Ours is by grace.
20Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That's fine except God is equipping you guys into confusion

 

[BigDaddy4]

That's fine except God is equipping you guys into confusion

Now you are accusing God of being the author of confusion?

 

[Peter1000]

And that is where you err. The lds thought is that you equip yourselves. The Bible teaches that God equips us. Yours is a work. Ours is by grace.
20Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I like your scritpture, but there is a time when you need to step up and be accountable for your actions. God equips you with everthing good for what purpose? It is for doing his will. So even though you are equipped, it does not mean that you automatically do his will. God wants you to do his will by your own volition. As you act responsibly, he responds by adding to your life grace upon grace, and this will add to your faith, and he may very well work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, so that as you ask, he will give, and as you knock he will answer at all times. What a wonderful life.

Without your responsible actions, even though God has equipped you with everything good for doing his will, you will not feel the full power of God in your life. If you do not do his will, he may wish to not work in you what is pleasing to him through Jesus Christ.

That is the case in all Christendom (including Mormons). God has equipped us with everything good to do his will. Unfortunately not everyone does his will, even though they proclaim that they believe. All do not do his will. There is a large group that think, God will do it, all I have to do is sit on this couch and drink lemon aid and as long as I proclaim that I believe, I will be in. It will not be so.

 

[Rescued One]

I like your scritpture, but there is a time when you need to step up and be accountable for your actions. God equips you with everthing good for what purpose? It is for doing his will. So even though you are equipped, it does not mean that you automatically do his will. God wants you to do his will by your own volition. As you act responsibly, he responds by adding to your life grace upon grace, and this will add to your faith, and he may very well work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, so that as you ask, he will give, and as you knock he will answer at all times. What a wonderful life.

Without your responsible actions, even though God has equipped you with everything good for doing his will, you will not feel the full power of God in your life. If you do not do his will, he may wish to not work in you what is pleasing to him through Jesus Christ.

Not true. We are new creatures without hearts of stone.

That is the case in all Christendom (including Mormons). God has equipped us with everything good to do his will. Unfortunately not everyone does his will, even though they proclaim that they believe. All do not do his will. There is a large group that think, God will do it, all I have to do is sit on this couch and drink lemon aid and as long as I proclaim that I believe, I will be in. It will not be so.

Of course, those who aren't born again won't be in! The Bible tells us that we are dependent on God's changing us into new creatures who have been born again. There is no such thing as a born again believer who isn't a new creature. God makes all things NEW! Please STOP portraying Christians as non-Christians.

 

[fatboys]

Now you are accusing God of being the author of confusion?

No what I’m saying is if your right god is a god of confusion. But god is not the god of confusion. When Joseph Smith went to the grove of trees to pray he went because he wanted to know out of all the churches He had been exeposed to which one was right church. They couldn’t all be right because god is not the god of confusion. God told him that none of them were right.

 

[BigDaddy4]

No what I’m saying is if your right god is a god of confusion. But god is not the god of confusion. When Joseph Smith went to the grove of trees to pray he went because he wanted to know out of all the churches He had been exeposed to which one was right church. They couldn’t all be right because god is not the god of confusion. God told him that none of them were right.

How does that relate to your comment about equipping us ("you guys") into confusion?

That's fine except God is equipping you guys into confusion

The discussion was on lds equipping themselves (Peter1000's comment) vs. God equpping us by grace, not Joseph Smith's encounter.

 

[Peter1000]

Paul didn't keep secret doctrines or the way to eternal life from new Christians. I rejected a false gospel which if it is meat, is poison meat.

John 3
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

2 Corinthians 6
16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

The bible clearly states that Paul withheld the meat of the gospel, because the Corinthians would not have received it and probably would have fallen away. You cannot deny this, it is in the scriptures, which you confess to believe. So believe it.

 

[Peter1000]

Not true. We are new creatures without hearts of stone.



Of course, those who aren't born again won't be in! The Bible tells us that we are dependent on God's changing us into new creatures who have been born again. There is no such thing as a born again believer who isn't a new creature. God makes all things NEW! Please STOP portraying Christians as non-Christians.

Just because you are a new creature does not mean that you are automatically going to act like a new creature. There are to many perfect examples in the scriptures of baptized people who have been baptized of the HS and the baptism of water, that were new creatures that returned to their former selves and were lost.

It is for that very reason that we have the principle of repentance. Those new creatures that find that they have fallen from grace, can repent and restore their newness and continue on to perfection. There may be some that never repent and will be lost forever. Like a branch that has to be cut off of the vine because it is rotten and to save the other branches it has to be cut off and burned. The parable is perfect.

There are some Christians (including Mormons) that are Christians by name only, because their actions betray them. You can surely see the sign. Good works = new person. Bad works = non new person. It is Jesus that set up this sign, not Mormons.

 

[Rescued One]

The bible clearly states that Paul withheld the meat of the gospel, because the Corinthians would not have received it and probably would have fallen away. You cannot deny this, it is in the scriptures, which you confess to believe. So believe it.

No, it is NOT in the scriptures! That is your twisted interpretation.

 

[Rescued One]

Just because you are a new creature does not mean that you are automatically going to act like a new creature. There are to many perfect examples in the scriptures of baptized people who have been baptized of the HS and the baptism of water, that were new creatures that returned to their former selves and were lost.

Baloney. You want that to be true so you claim it is.

It is for that very reason that we have the principle of repentance. Those new creatures that find that they have fallen from grace, can repent and restore their newness and continue on to perfection. There may be some that never repent and will be lost forever. Like a branch that has to be cut off of the vine because it is rotten and to save the other branches it has to be cut off and burned. The parable is perfect.

Hypocrites are cut off because they were bad to begin with.

There are some Christians (including Mormons) that are Christians by name only, because their actions betray them.

You are making the error of labeling the wrong persons Christians.

You can surely see the sign. Good works = new person.

New person was made new by God. A new person endures and overcomes by the grace of God.

Bad works = non new person. It is Jesus that set up this sign, not Mormons.

The unsaved weren't born again.

1 John 2
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[Rescued One]

 

[Rescued One]

No what I’m saying is if your right god is a god of confusion. But god is not the god of confusion. When Joseph Smith went to the grove of trees to pray he went because he wanted to know out of all the churches He had been exeposed to which one was right church. They couldn’t all be right because god is not the god of confusion. God told him that none of them were right.

We know that Christians are added to the Church that Christ established. We know that Christ did NOT establish a church that claims marriage is the way to eternal life and claims that godhood is something to be earned and that ALL blessings have to be earned.

 

[Rescued One]

Peter1000 said, "Just because you are a new creature does not mean that you are automatically going to act like a new creature. There are to many perfect examples in the scriptures of baptized people who have been baptized of the HS and the baptism of water, that were new creatures that returned to their former selves and were lost."

Mormonism claims that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is available ONLY to Mormons. Mormonism claims that becoming Mormon makes new creatures. Neither teaching is true.

Here are the Mormon teachings:
The Atonement changes everyone who accepts it; those who choose to follow Jesus Christ no longer “live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.” They become a “new creature” (2 Corinthians 5:14–15, 17). Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught what it means to be a “new creature” in Christ:

“The essence of the [Mormon]gospel of Jesus Christ entails a fundamental and permanent change in our very nature made possible through the Savior’s Atonement. True conversion brings a change in one’s beliefs, heart, and life to accept and conform to the will of God (see Acts 3:19; 3 Nephi 9:20) and includes a conscious commitment to become a disciple of Christ.


“… As we honor the ordinances and covenants of salvation and exaltation (see D&C 20:25), ‘press forward with a steadfastness in Christ’ (2 Nephi 31:20), and endure in faith to the end (see D&C 14:7), we become new creatures in Christ (see 2 Corinthians 5:17)” (“Converted unto the Lord,” Ensign or Liahona,Nov. 2012, 107).
Chapter 41: 2 Corinthians 1–5

Mormonism excludes all non-Mormons from inclusion in the new birth.


The new convert who has accepted the gift of the Holy Ghost with the right spirit will experience not only a cleansing but a feeling that will give him a new heart and make of him a new person. Sometimes this is immediate, and sometimes it happens over a period of time. But always there is a change for the better. For the longer-standing member of the Church who has become preoccupied with the world or in little ways has allowed his religious life to be more procedural than of the spirit, there is something to be rediscovered (and for some, discovered for the first time) with the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.
Fire and the Holy Ghost - Ensign June 1995 - ensign

Marion Romney (LDS First Presidency) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life. "
Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119

Why do you engage in endless debates that contradict the teachings of your church?

 

[withwonderingawe]

Peter1000 said, "Just because you are a new creature does not mean that you are automatically going to act like a new creature. There are to many perfect examples in the scriptures of baptized people who have been baptized of the HS and the baptism of water, that were new creatures that returned to their former selves and were lost."

Mormonism claims that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is available ONLY to Mormons. Mormonism claims that becoming Mormon makes new creatures. Neither teaching is true.

Here are the Mormon teachings:
The Atonement changes everyone who accepts it; those who choose to follow Jesus Christ no longer “live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.” They become a “new creature” (2 Corinthians 5:14–15, 17). Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught what it means to be a “new creature” in Christ:

“The essence of the [Mormon]gospel of Jesus Christ entails a fundamental and permanent change in our very nature made possible through the Savior’s Atonement. True conversion brings a change in one’s beliefs, heart, and life to accept and conform to the will of God (see Acts 3:19; 3 Nephi 9:20) and includes a conscious commitment to become a disciple of Christ.


“… As we honor the ordinances and covenants of salvation and exaltation (see D&C 20:25), ‘press forward with a steadfastness in Christ’ (2 Nephi 31:20), and endure in faith to the end (see D&C 14:7), we become new creatures in Christ (see 2 Corinthians 5:17)” (“Converted unto the Lord,” Ensign or Liahona,Nov. 2012, 107).
Chapter 41: 2 Corinthians 1–5

Mormonism excludes all non-Mormons from inclusion in the new birth.


The new convert who has accepted the gift of the Holy Ghost with the right spirit will experience not only a cleansing but a feeling that will give him a new heart and make of him a new person. Sometimes this is immediate, and sometimes it happens over a period of time. But always there is a change for the better. For the longer-standing member of the Church who has become preoccupied with the world or in little ways has allowed his religious life to be more procedural than of the spirit, there is something to be rediscovered (and for some, discovered for the first time) with the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.
Fire and the Holy Ghost - Ensign June 1995 - ensign

Marion Romney (LDS First Presidency) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life. "
Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119

Why do you engage in endless debates that contradict the teachings of your church?

And Evangelicals do the same, if I don't believe as they do I'm not saved, I'm not a new creature.

I think your problem is you are still trying to place your understanding of being save from hell over the top of our understanding that all mankind will eventually be saved, all will bow their knees to Christ.

We do accept that many are guided by the Spirit, Christian or not. They are led to do good, to help find that lost child, to get out of danger. Anyone with faith in Christ can receive answer to prayer and healing.

However there is the over powering spiritual rebirth when the Holy Spirit comes upon a person who has the light of the gospel, has been baptized unto remission of sins and now is going through their own Gethsemane. As one of your quotes pointed out this can be a one time big event or an on going process of renewing the Spirit. It is the adult coming to grips with their own sins and weaknesses and then asking Christ to help them overcome them. It's when like with Enos in the Book of Mormon the Holy Spirit overwhelms you and you know you have been forgiven. The sensation is beyond explanation, you no longer walk by faith alone but have a certitude of faith.

 

[Rescued One]

And Evangelicals do the same, if I don't believe as they do I'm not saved, I'm not a new creature.

I think your problem is you are still trying to place your understanding of being save from hell over the top of our understanding that all mankind will eventually be saved, all will bow their knees to Christ.

You know good and well that your church teaches many will not have eternal life and an unknown number will spend eternity in eternal darkness.

And Evangelicals do the same, if I don't believe as they do I'm not saved, I'm not a new creature.

What Evangelicals believe (some of them aren't Christians) has nothing to do with hiding certain beliefs. This is tiresome.

We do accept that many are guided by the Spirit, Christian or not.

Christian or not?

They are led to do good, to help find that lost child, to get out of danger. Anyone with faith in Christ can receive answer to prayer and healing.

The way to receive ANY or ALL blessings per Mormonism requires obedience.

D&C 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

A person can lose the influence of the Holy Ghost per Mormonism. According to Mormonism, the only way a person can have eternal life is to earn it as a member of your church.

The quotes I posted in my previous post are true, aren't they? Don't be afraid to answer instead of ignoring the question.

However there is the over powering spiritual rebirth when the Holy Spirit comes upon a person who has the light of the gospel,

Mormonism is NOT the gospel. It's a set of men's commandments and teachings.

has been baptized unto remission of sins and now is going through their own Gethsemane.

Gethsemane??? No! Baptism into a false religion?

As one of your quotes pointed out this can be a one time big event or an on going process of renewing the Spirit. It is the adult coming to grips with their own sins and weaknesses and then asking Christ to help them overcome them. It's when like with Enos in the Book of Mormon the Holy Spirit overwhelms you and you know you have been forgiven. The sensation is beyond explanation, you no longer walk by faith alone but have a certitude of faith.

Many Christians have assurance of salvation. There is only ONE WAY to eternal life.

John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I know I have been forgiven because God says so. I know that JESUS is the way --- not Joseph Smith and not your church. We believe Jesus over Marion G. Romney.

NOT TRUE:
This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life.
Marion G. Romney, CR, April 1961, 119

 

[Peter1000]

No, it is NOT in the scriptures! That is your twisted interpretation.

Then give me your untwisted interpretation of why Paul said this to the Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 3:2King James Version (KJV)
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

 

[Peter1000]

Peter1000 said, "Just because you are a new creature does not mean that you are automatically going to act like a new creature. There are to many perfect examples in the scriptures of baptized people who have been baptized of the HS and the baptism of water, that were new creatures that returned to their former selves and were lost."

Mormonism claims that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is available ONLY to Mormons. Mormonism claims that becoming Mormon makes new creatures. Neither teaching is true.

Here are the Mormon teachings:
The Atonement changes everyone who accepts it; those who choose to follow Jesus Christ no longer “live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.” They become a “new creature” (2 Corinthians 5:14–15, 17). Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles taught what it means to be a “new creature” in Christ:

“The essence of the [Mormon]gospel of Jesus Christ entails a fundamental and permanent change in our very nature made possible through the Savior’s Atonement. True conversion brings a change in one’s beliefs, heart, and life to accept and conform to the will of God (see Acts 3:19; 3 Nephi 9:20) and includes a conscious commitment to become a disciple of Christ.


“… As we honor the ordinances and covenants of salvation and exaltation (see D&C 20:25), ‘press forward with a steadfastness in Christ’ (2 Nephi 31:20), and endure in faith to the end (see D&C 14:7), we become new creatures in Christ (see 2 Corinthians 5:17)” (“Converted unto the Lord,” Ensign or Liahona,Nov. 2012, 107).
Chapter 41: 2 Corinthians 1–5

Mormonism excludes all non-Mormons from inclusion in the new birth.


The new convert who has accepted the gift of the Holy Ghost with the right spirit will experience not only a cleansing but a feeling that will give him a new heart and make of him a new person. Sometimes this is immediate, and sometimes it happens over a period of time. But always there is a change for the better. For the longer-standing member of the Church who has become preoccupied with the world or in little ways has allowed his religious life to be more procedural than of the spirit, there is something to be rediscovered (and for some, discovered for the first time) with the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.
Fire and the Holy Ghost - Ensign June 1995 - ensign

Marion Romney (LDS First Presidency) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life. "
Conference Report, April, 1961, p. 119

Why do you engage in endless debates that contradict the teachings of your church?

The positions I take in these discussions are not in conflict with what the church teaches.

Tell me, how many good Christans do you know that were 'saved' because they were baptized with the HS and believed in Jesus, but fell away from their belief in Jesus, never to your knowledge to come back into the fold?

 

[Peter1000]

We know that Christians are added to the Church that Christ established. We know that Christ did NOT establish a church that claims marriage is the way to eternal life and claims that godhood is something to be earned and that ALL blessings have to be earned.

Those kinds of doctrines are advanced doctrines given to those that will live by them (what we might call 'meat'). The NT church never got to the point of being able to accept the meat doctrines, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:2. So you are right, it is not in the bible for a reason.

Marriage was taught and accepted as the norm. Paul was a critic of marriage, so those who read only Paul, get a mixed message about marriage. Many scriptures, however, testify that marriage in the Lord was not until death does them part.

 

[Peter1000]

Baloney. You want that to be true so you claim it is.

If you think that is baloney ask the 2 believers of Jesus, Ananias and Sopphira. These people probably knew Jesus and were followers, so they were baptized of the HS and of the water, and as new persons, received instructions directly from Peter and the apostles.

This makes them the very sheep that you so proudly procalaim. They were brought to Jesus by God, they were baptized of water and HS, they were the perfect new persons in the gospel of Jesus Chirst.

Yet they were killed by God for lying, and who kinows their fate. Or are they still saved in the KOH. What do you think?

Hypocrites are cut off because they were bad to begin with.

I agree with you, but how do you know a hypocrite from a new person? I know the answer, do you?

You are making the error of labeling the wrong persons Christians.

Again, who is the wrong Christian? How can you tell?

New person was made new by God. A new person endures and overcomes by the grace of God.

There you go with God made me a new person, God will make me endure and overcome. God just makes it all automatic. No personal accountability, no development of faith because it is given to you 100%. No worries.

The unsaved weren't born again.

Again, how do you know who is saved and unsaved?