LDS Contradictions Regarding Holy Ghost

[BigDaddy4]

Why do you resist the doctrine so much then?

My baptism does not save me. I've never said it wasn't important. I just maintain that it is not salvational.

 

[Rescued One]

Did you eventually learn this? And what did you do with this knowledge? Didn't you attend the temple and do these things for a while?

Then did you decide you were manipulated and decided to reject it?

Was Paul deceitful to the saints of the NT. He would not give them the meat of the gospel either at first, in fact I don't think he was able to give them the meat because as he says, they would not receive it. Well you got the meat of the gospel and you rejected it too. We do not give the meat at the first discussions, we give you principle upon principle, until you receive the highest principles and are able to recieve them and act on them. The NT church would not even recieve them. You received them and then eventually rejected them. Good going.

Paul didn't keep secret doctrines or the way to eternal life from new Christians. I rejected a false gospel which if it is meat, is poison meat.

John 3
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

2 Corinthians 6
16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

[Rescued One]

This is a true statement. Unless you live the gospel and obey the laws and the ordinances of the gospel, the atonement of Jesus Christ will get you into heaven, but you will be in a lower level of heaven. You will not be in the highest level of heaven.

Belief and getting baptized is just the beginning.

Your quote didn't say, "Getting baptized is insufficient."

Obeying the gospel and doing good works, and completing all of the ordinances, moving from grace to grace, is an ongoing opportunity to show Jesus that his sacrifice was worth it, and it was not done in vain. Those who follow Jesus's path will end up in the highest KOG, those that do not will end up in a lower KOG. It is just that clear and simple.

Do you think that Jesus doesn't know His sacrifice was worth it? And Mormons say it was only an opportunity for us. We regard it as the payment for our salvation.

Romans 5
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Acts 20
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

He purchased us; He's not going to let us be taken captive again.

 

[Peter1000]

My baptism does not save me. I've never said it wasn't important. I just maintain that it is not salvational.

Your baptism will not save you unless you keep the commanments of the Lord Jesus Christ and follow him. Then your baptism becomes important in fulfilling all things necessary for you to be saved.

If you do not get baptized and you lived all the commandments, you would not be saved in the highest KOG. You would be saved in a lower KOG, since you did not fulfill all things.

 

[Peter1000]

Your quote didn't say, "Getting baptized is insufficient."

Getting baptized and that is all you do, is insufficient. You must believe through the HS, repent, be baptized, recieve the permanent gift of the HS, and now live the gospel, and as you do good woks, grace will be added upon you and from grace to grace you will become a son and daughter of God, to be saved in the highest KOG.

Do you think that Jesus doesn't know His sacrifice was worth it? And Mormons say it was only an opportunity for us. We regard it as the payment for our salvation.

Of course he does, but Jesus needs to know that you do. It was a payment for your salvation, but it is only going to apply when you have been found worthy to enter into the highest KOG, everyone that believes makes it to the lower KOG.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Your baptism will not save you unless you keep the commanments of the Lord Jesus Christ and follow him. Then your baptism becomes important in fulfilling all things necessary for you to be saved.

If you do not get baptized and you lived all the commandments, you would not be saved in the highest KOG. You would be saved in a lower KOG, since you did not fulfill all things.

If I believed that, then I'd have to believe that God's grace found in Jesus Christ was not sufficient. And I just won't do that.

 

[Peter1000]

If I believed that, then I'd have to believe that God's grace found in Jesus Christ was not sufficient. And I just won't do that.

Jesus's grace is only sufficient for those that follow him and live his commandments. Like I say, only then is your baptism counted as a fulfilling all things along with the rest of your effort. Yes you must give it some effort, sorry, it is not automatic.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Jesus's grace is only sufficient for those that follow him and live his commandments. Like I say, only then is your baptism counted as a fulfilling all things along with the rest of your effort. Yes you must give it some effort, sorry, it is not automatic.

That is not grace. Jesus never said what you want him to say.

 

[Rescued One]

Getting baptized and that is all you do, is insufficient. You must believe through the HS, repent, be baptized, recieve the permanent gift of the HS, and now live the gospel, and as you do good woks, grace will be added upon you and from grace to grace you will become a son and daughter of God, to be saved in the highest KOG.



Of course he does, but Jesus needs to know that you do. It was a payment for your salvation, but it is only going to apply when you have been found worthy to enter into the highest KOG, everyone that believes makes it to the lower KOG.

No one could be worthy; that's why we have to come to Christ. By the law is knowledge of sin.

Jesus paid our sin debt without our help. Grace is unmerited favor. There is no lower kingdom of God. Jesus is the door.

John 10
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Israel didn't earn God's favor. They were chosen.

 

[faroukfarouk]

No one could be worthy; that's why we have to come to Christ. By the law is knowledge of sin.

Jesus paid our sin debt without our help. Grace is unmerited favor. There is no lower kingdom of God. Jesus is the door.

John 10
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Israel didn't earn God's favor. They were chosen.

Well, exactly; grace is unmerited favour; Ephesians 2.8-9. "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11.16)

 

[Peter1000]

No one could be worthy; that's why we have to come to Christ. By the law is knowledge of sin.

If by the law of Moses is the knowledge of sin, tell me what the law of Christ is about?
Galatians 6:2King James Version (KJV)
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Question: if you do not fulfill the law of Christ, will you be saved?

Jesus paid our sin debt without our help. Grace is unmerited favor. There is no lower kingdom of God. Jesus is the door.

Then why does Paul continually preach that we must be active in all good works?
Titus 3:8King James Version (KJV)
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Please reconcile this scripture with any grace scripture. Thank you, you have never been able to do this.

Abraham, the father of Israelites chose God, and then God chose him. God did choose Israel because Israels founders chose God. Their faith and their good works attributed to them as being worthy of God's presence. So God was with them.

 

[Peter1000]

Well, exactly; grace is unmerited favour; Ephesians 2.8-9. "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11.16)

Paul preached it is by grace that you are saved.
Paul also taught that good works were necessary.

How do you go about reconciling scriptures from Paul that preach grace are you saved, and scriptures from the same Paul that tell us we must be equiped with all good works. Please reconcile these 2 gospel principles. Thank you.

This is the start of a scripture: Now abide faith, hope, and charity.....
which of these concepts is the most important according to this scripture?

 

[Rescued One]

Paul preached it is by grace that you are saved.
Paul also taught that good works were necessary.

How do you go about reconciling scriptures from Paul that preach grace are you saved, and scriptures from the same Paul that tell us we must be equiped with all good works. Please reconcile these 2 gospel principles. Thank you.

This is the start of a scripture: Now abide faith, hope, and charity.....
which of these concepts is the most important according to this scripture?

We ARE equipped with good works just as Paul was! We were in darkness before we believed.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Paul preached it is by grace that you are saved.
Paul also taught that good works were necessary.

How do you go about reconciling scriptures from Paul that preach grace are you saved, and scriptures from the same Paul that tell us we must be equiped with all good works. Please reconcile these 2 gospel principles. Thank you.

This is the start of a scripture: Now abide faith, hope, and charity.....
which of these concepts is the most important according to this scripture?

Paul said 'not of works' (Ephesians 2.9); see also Romans 11.16, quote above. But also, works follow faith; Paul to the Romans at the beginning and the end of the Epistle speaks of 'the obedience of faith'; 'obedience to the faith': a holy duty and faith driven result, but not something which adds merit to the already perfect work of Christ at the Cross for sinners.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Paul said 'not of works' (Ephesians 2.9); see also Romans 11.16, quote above. But also, works follow faith; Paul to the Romans at the beginning and the end of the Epistle speaks of 'the obedience of faith'; 'obedience to the faith': a holy duty and faith driven result, but not something which adds merit to the already perfect work of Christ at the Cross for sinners.

Faroukfarouk, forgive me for not reading the entire thread thus far, but has it been stated that Mormons don't believe works save anyone, but rather faith?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The actual theology, in context:

Holy Ghost

The link you provided says:
.
All honest seekers of the truth can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost, leading them to Jesus Christ and His gospel. However, the fulness of the blessings given through the Holy Ghost are available only to those who receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and remain worthy.
.
What is involved in "remaining worthy?"

 

[Ironhold]

The link you provided says:
.
All honest seekers of the truth can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost, leading them to Jesus Christ and His gospel. However, the fulness of the blessings given through the Holy Ghost are available only to those who receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and remain worthy.
.
What is involved in "remaining worthy?"

Basically, do your best to be the best person you can be. All there is.

You pretty much have to try to get yourself booted down to Hades.

 

[Peter1000]

We ARE equipped with good works just as Paul was! We were in darkness before we believed.

When I used the word 'equipped', I meant that a person had equipped themselves with all good works. I did not mean that God automatically equipped us with all good works. You always want to go to some automatic solution to getting into heaven. It does not exist.

 

[Peter1000]

Paul said 'not of works' (Ephesians 2.9); see also Romans 11.16, quote above. But also, works follow faith; Paul to the Romans at the beginning and the end of the Epistle speaks of 'the obedience of faith'; 'obedience to the faith': a holy duty and faith driven result, but not something which adds merit to the already perfect work of Christ at the Cross for sinners.

Mormons do good works because it is a product of their faith. We believe in Jesus and we want to be like him. His good works were his calling card. How many times did Jesus said, don't believe in me, thats OK, but believe in the good works that I perform. IOW you can tell whether a person really believes by their good works. Am I right?

Answer this question: A person comes to church one Sunday and says he has had the baptism of the HS and he believes in Jesus and is saved. Everyone is congratulatory, and happy for the person, and all is well.
Then for the next 2 years, nobody knows what happened to this person, he came a couple of times, but after that he never came back, and then through the newspaper it became known that this person raped and beat a woman
to death and was sentenced to prison. 2 years later this person was involved in a prison break, kills a guard and is shot and killed himself.
The question: Will this person be saved because he says he had a moment with the HS, and he believed in Jesus?

If you say yes, is there a possibility that this person would find himself in a different part of heaven than a person that believed in Jesus and then led a Stephen-like life and died in the faith, as he was praying to Jesus?

BTW which of the attributes is the most important, faith, hope, or charity?

 

[Peter1000]

Faroukfarouk,

Jane is right, you can never do enough good works to earn your way into heaven.
However, good works is a product of faith. If a person has faith in Jesus, that person will eventually be full of good works, out of love and faith in Jesus, and because they are a new person in Jesus, and they want to be like Jesus. It is our faith in Jesus that moves us to good works for the purpose of filling the KOG with fruit.

I have a tendancy to focus on the idea that good works is necessary for salvation, and that is because mainstream Christians focus on the idea of grace, or an automatic pass into heaven.
It is by faith that we are saved, and by faith we equip ouselves with all good works as we help to build up the KOG. As we do these things grace is added upon us and our shortfall will be made up by the grace of Jesus, our sins will be removed by Jesus and we will happily be allowed enter into heaven, free of sin and guilt, to live with God the Father and Jesus forever and ever.

That is why Paul preaches both grace and good and righteous, and faithful works, (but not the works of the law of Moses).