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Contradiction? Revelation 20:10 vs. Ezekiel 28:11-19

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by trident343, Aug 9, 2011.

  1. timbo3

    timbo3 Newbie

    Jehovahs Witness

    That Satan (meaning "resistor") is a real person, can be seen from the words that Jesus told the Jews: "You are from your father the Devil (meaning "slanderer"), and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie, literally "of it"]."(John 8:44)

    Jesus points back to Genesis 3 and the Garden of Eden, whereby "the serpent" seduced Eve to eat of the "tree of knowledge of good and bad" (Gen 3:1-5), introducing the first lie.

    In addition, the first two chapters of Job has the name Satan 14 times when before Jehovah God as well at Zechariah 3, Satan is seen resisting Joshua the high priest.(Zech 3:1, 2) Following his baptism, Jesus told the Devil: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”(Matt 4:10) Jesus thus establishes that Satan the Devil is a real person, though a spirit, who rules the "world" of wicked mankind.(1 John 5:19)

    The churches have taught for centuries that "hell" is a place of everlasting fiery torment for the "wicked", having absorbed it from pagan doctrine, especially from ancient Babylon. The word "hell" in the King James Bible is often rendered from the Hebrew she’ohl´ and the Greek hai´des and at times from the Greek word Gehenna. The Greek word Gehenna is often rendered as "hellfire", but rather than meaning "eternal torment", has the sense of total annihilation, from which there is no resurrection.(Matt 10:28) It is also referred to as the "second death."(Rev 20:14)

    The meaning given today to the word “hell” is that portrayed in Dante’s Divine Comedy and Milton’s Paradise Lost, which meaning is completely foreign to the original definition of the word. The idea of a “hell” of fiery torment, however, dates back long before Dante or Milton. The Grolier Universal Encyclopedia (1971, Vol. 9, p. 205) under “Hell” says: “Hindus and Buddhists regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration. Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment.”

    The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the “nether world . . . as a place full of horrors, . . . presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the “Other World” as featuring “pits of fire” for “the damned.”(The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898, p. 581; The Book of the Dead, with introduction by E. Wallis Budge, 1960, pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 161, 200)

    It is to be noted that the Bible does not teach that God made "hell", as portrayed by the churches, but it does teach that the Hebrew she’ohl´ and the Greek hai´des means mankind's common grave. The apostle Peter quoted from Psalms 16:10 in regard to Jesus at Acts 2:31, thereby showing that Hebrew she’ohl´ and the Greek hai´des means the same, mankind's common grave, in which a person can receive a resurrection. The Hebrew word qe´ver and Greek word ta´phos are rendered as grave, whereas the Hebrew she’ohl´ and the Greek hai´des are often left untranslated in some Bibles.(New World Translation, American Standard, Darby's Bible)

    The word Satan is first used in the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the Old Testament) at 1 Chronicles 21:1 in many Bibles, and means literally "resistor". He, being a perfect angel before his defection, cannot seek reconciliation with God, just as Adam and Eve, who are dead forever. These were fully aware of their violation of God's command and could not "beg off" because of sinful imperfection. Only imperfect people who are sinners have before them the opportunity to ' declared righteous' and thus everlasting life.(Rom 5:12, 18, 23)

    The word "demon" is found at Matthew 8:31, being the Greek word dai´mon; elsewhere the word dai·mo´ni·on appears over 60 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures (commonly called the New Testament). Satan was the first spirit person to make himself a demon, with the Greek word dai´mon meaning "a spirit, a being inferior to God, superior to men; an evil spirit."(Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, pg 123, 124, G1140 and G1142)
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2011
  2. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

    Christian Seeker
    The lake of fire is just the lake of purification

    a lot of politics in bible translation .

    but even being in torment of alienation from the inescapable love of God for an Age, is not something to be desired .
  3. he-man

    he-man he-man

    United States
    What say you?
    Is it possible to believe the truth concerning Christ, and be ignorant of the nature of the devil that he was expressly manifested to destroy with his works?

    The popular doctrine of a personal devil has no foundation whatever in truth, but is the hideous conception of the heathen mind, inherited by the moderns from the mythologies of the ancients, and incorporated with Christianity by those "men of corrupt minds," who, Paul predicted, would pervert the truth, "giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim. 4:1).

    "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might DESTROY THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL" (I John iii, 8).

    "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, THAT IS, THE DEVIL" (Heb. 2:14).

    Is it possible to believe the truth concerning Christ, and be ignorant of the nature of the devil that he was expressly manifested to destroy with his works?

    In the first place, there are certain general principles which exclude the possibility of the devil's existence. "The wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). "Sin entered into the world, and DEATH by sin" (Rom. 5:12). This is an eternal principle; death and sin are inseparable. "God ONLY hath immortality" (I Tim. 6:16);

    Disobedience, which is sin, in every case, He visits with death.

    Therefore, the angels which kept not their first estate, were cast down to hell (the grave), and reserved under chains of darkness (the bonds of death)--(Jude 6; II Peter 2:2, 4), therefore Adam was sentenced to return to the ground (Gen. 3:19); therefore Moses was prohibited from entering the promised land, and condemned to die (Deut. 32:48, 52); and, therefore, Uzzah was slain for harmlessly (humanly speaking) saving the ark from a fall (II Sam. 6:6, 7); therefore "the man of God that came out of Judah" was torn by a lion for turning back to eat bread with another prophet, in disobedience to a divine command, under the sincere impression that in so doing he was obeying the commands of the Almighty (1 Kings 13:1, 25).

    An immortal rebel is an impossibility.

    With God is the fountain of life (Psalm 36:9). "In His hand is the life of every living thing" (Job 12:10),
    He consigns all disobedience and sin to death.
    Will it be suggested that God has made an exception in the case of the devil?
    The Bible devil is a sinner (1 John 3:8): therefore the devil cannot be immortal.
    Therefore the operation of His law, which links death with sin, would destroy the devil if he were a person; "for the devil sinneth from the beginning," and therefore would have been mortal from the beginning.

    He took part of flesh and blood, that "THROUGH DEATH he might destroy him that hath the power of death, that is, the devil" (Heb. 2:14).

    Why through death? If the devil is a being separate from mankind, what had the immolation of flesh and blood on Calvary to do with the process of his destruction?

    If he were the strong, personal, active power of evil contended for, it wanted strength, and not weakness, to put him down. It wanted "the nature of angels," and not "the seed of Abraham," to enter into a successful encounter with "the personal power of darkness."

    But Jesus, to destroy him, was manifested in the flesh, and submitted to death. Victory crowned his efforts, and the devil was destroyed.

    "Ye shall not surely die: for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil" (Gen. 3:5).
    To say that a supernatural personal devil put this into the serpent's head is to go beyond the record. It is to put something into it that is not there.

    The narrative accredits the serpent as a natural agent with the part it took in the transaction, and the sentence afterwards passed upon the serpent, rests upon the same basis: "Because THOU hast done this, THOU art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field. Upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life" (Gen. 3:14).
    To suggest that the serpent was Satan in reptile form is again to go beyond the record.
    The idea is forbidden by the sentence which condemns the serpent to eat dust all the days of its life.

    Some people make a great difficulty about the serpent speaking, If a "dumb ass, speaking with man's voice, forbad the madness" of a Balaam----(II Pet. 2:16)--why not a serpent being enabled to utter its thoughts when it was necessary to try the faithfulness of Adam and Eve?

    Trial strengthens and makes manifest.
    The case of the fallen angels is largely relied upon:.--
    "If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (II Pet. 2:4). ..

    "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day" (Jude 6).

    Messengers confined in the grave against a time of judgment. It speaks of them as in custody, "in chains of darkness "--a metaphor highly expressive of the bondage of death--in which they are held and from which they will emerge, to be judged, at a time when the saints shall sit in judgment (I Cor. 6:3).

    Superficial believers in the Miltonic antecedents of "the Prince of Darkness," quote Rev. 12:7, in proof of them :--
    "And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon, ..that old serpent called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

    The things seen by John in "Revelation" were representative of events future to his time. This is evident from Rev. 4:1: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

    Hence, how absurd to quote any of his descriptions as applicable to an event alleged to have occurred before the creation of the world!

    Isaiah 14:12-15, and Ezek. 28:11-15; if the reader will read the whole chapter he will find the personage addressed is an earthly potentate--in one case the King of Babylon, and in the other, the Prince of Tyre.

    Devil is Greek; Satan is Hebrew, and Greek only by adoption. Devil, in the singular number, only occurs in the New Testament; Satan is found in both Old and New.

    Cruden (himself a believer in the popular devil) defines it as follows:-- "Satan, Sathan, Sathanas: this is a mere Hebrew word, and signifies AN ADVERSARY, AN ENEMY, AN ACCUSER."

    And then, with regard to the word "devil," Cruden remarks: "This word comes from the Greek diabolos, which signifies a calumniator or accuser."

    Parkhurst says, "The original word diabolos comes from diabebola, the perfect tense, middle voice of diaballo, which is compounded of dia, through; and ballo, to cast; therefore meaning to dart or strike through; whence, in a figurative sense, it signifies to strike or stab with an accusation or evil report."

    Hence, Parkhurst defines diabolos as a substantive,-to mean "an accuser, a slanderer," which he illustrates by referring to I Tim. 3:11; II Tim. 3:3; Titus 2:3 in all of which is applied to human beings.

    The first place where it occurs is Num. 22:22 :--"And God's anger was kindled because he (Balaam) went; and the angel of the Lord stood in the way for an adversary (SATAN) against him."
    verse 32 :--
    "And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? Behold, I went out to withstand (marg., to be AN ADVERSARY--a Satan to) thee."
    In this case, Satan was a holy angel.
    "Let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an adversary (SATAN) to us" (I Sam. 29:4).
    "And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries (SATANS) unto me?" (II Sam. 19:22).
    "But now the Lord my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary (SATAN) nor evil occurrent" (I Kings 5:4).

    "And the Lord stirred up an adversary (SATAN) unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom" (I Kings 9:14).
    "And God stirred him up another adversary (SATAN), Rezon, the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah."
    "And he was an adversary (SATAN) to Israel all the days of Solomon" (I Kings 11:23, 25).

    But who was the adversary, it may be asked, who proved such a terror to Job?
    This is Job's view of the case: "Have pity upon me, O ye my friends," says he, "THE HAND OF GOD hath touched me" (chapter 19:21).

    And the narrator, in concluding the book, says: "Then came there unto him all his brethren... and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil THAT THE LORD HAD BROUGHT UPON HIM" (chapter 42:11)

    "And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan, even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem," etc. (Zech. 3:1, 2) is representative of the class of antagonists against whom Joshua had to contend. The nature of these may be learned from the following :--(Ezra 3:2, 3: 4: 1-5).

    Jesus, on a certain occasion, when Peter protested against the sacrifice of Christ, styled Peter "Satan ":--"But he turned, and said unto PETER, Get thee behind me, SATAN: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Matt. 16:23; Mark 8:33; Luke 4:8).

    I Cor. 5:3-5:--"...to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh..
    (John Thomas)
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  4. timbo3

    timbo3 Newbie

    Jehovahs Witness

    Satan is not a "personal devil", but rather a spirit son of God who rebelled against God's authority in the Garden of Eden. To whom was Jesus speaking following his baptism in the fall of 29 C.E. at Matthew 4 ? To himself ? Did Jesus have an evil influence within himself that was tempting him ? To the contrary, Jesus was perfect, who "committed no sin nor was deception found in his mouth."(1 Pet 2:22)

    Matthew wrote that "Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil."(Matt 4:1; Mark 1:13 uses the Greek word "Satanas", Luke 4:2) Just as Eve was tempted by an unseen spirit through his using a "serpent" like a ventriloquist, who was later unmasked as "the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan", so Satan "is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him"(Rev 12:9), though unseen by the "world".

    The apostle Paul wrote to the Thessalonians that "perhaps in some way the Tempter might have tempted you, and our labor might have turned out to be in vain."(1 Thess 3:5) Thus Satan is a real spirit person who seeks to tempt any gullible human, a spirit person who has under his manipulative control "the entire inhabited earth", along with his "angels", who were forcibly cast out of heaven when Jesus was crowned king of God's kingdom in 1914.

    You're speaking in circles, not making logical sense. First, you seem to deny that Satan exists, then quote Scriptures that show him as existing, such as Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4. Thus, he has you fooled into believing that he does not exist, is not real, just a figment of a person's imagination. Jesus, on the other hand, recognized Satan to be real, for he knew the wicked angel that became Satan before his defection from "the truth".(John 8:44)

    How you drew the "conclusion" that any angel could be an "immortal rebel" is beyond me. In the beginning, only our Creator, Jehovah God, was immortal (Hab 1:12), with not even the angel that later became Jesus Christ having immortality until after his resurrection from the dead.(1 Tim 6:16) Immortality was later granted to those who reign with Jesus Christ.(1 Cor 15:23, 53, 54)

    Satan the devil is very much alive and causing "woes" throughout the earth.(Rev 12:12) He is very much aware that his time is short, since he (and his "angels") was "hurled down to the earth" in 1914 immediately following Jesus enthronement as king of God's kingdom.(Rev 6:2; Rev 12:5, 9; Dan 7:13, 14)

    His destruction is yet future, for Jehovah God has an "appointed time" for him and his angels demise (and those are mislead by him during Jesus millennial reign), directly after the end of Jesus "thousand year" reign.(Rev 20:7-10) After this annihilation of all who are opposed to God's sovereignty, genuine peace will now prevail throughout the universe forever.(Ps 37:11, 29)
  5. Jpark

    Jpark Well-Known Member

    I personally believe that annihilation exists, but it's exclusive, like eternal torture in God's presence may be (Rev. 14:10).

    See 2 Thess. 1:8-9 and Rev. 19:21. If annihilation the universal fate of all sinners, then why the prominent mention?

    You would think that eternal torture would be mentioned instead, for such a large number of people (Rev. 20:8 the number of them is like the sand of the seashore [Lit 'sea']).

    Perhaps to be alienated is even worse than torture?

    Rev. 20:9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

    Compare it to verse 10.

    Rev. 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Hence another reason why I believe in eternal torture as a common fate of sinners.
  6. he-man

    he-man he-man

    United States
    You should have stopped right there.

    I personally believe that annihilation exists, but it's elusive, to those who like the word eternal torture.

    2Th 1:9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
  7. trident343

    trident343 Member

    I believe what is said in Ezekiel 28 is true, that Satan will be devoured by fire and brought to ashes on the earth and will be "no more". I do have a problem understanding what John meant when he said Satan would be tormented day and night "for the ages of ages" as translated in the literal versions of the bible. ]Most bibles translate it as "for ever and ever" which would contradict Ezekiel 28. Does anybody think "for ever and ever" is the proper translation but the had a sense of of hyperbole? Like "my brother wants to go to college to become a doctor. He will be in school forever"
    Or do the words have a meaning which give a sense of time which is indefinite but also unbounded and vast? The same words are used to describe God who is obviously eternal. Perhaps like ]"into the ages" he will be tormented day and night into the ages? Denoting unbounded continuity but not confirming or denying an end. Consider the literal translation of Revelation 1:6
    ]And made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father: to him [be] the glory and the might to the ages of ages. Amen.
    Would a fair interpretation be "To him be the glory and the might, continually into the ages. Amen"

    Revelation 20:10 KJV
    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Revelation 20:10 Darby
    And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for the ages of ages

    Revelation 1:6 Darby
    And made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father: to him [be] the glory and the might to the ages of ages. Amen
  8. Tavita

    Tavita beside quiet waters He restores my soul..


    Satan, or, the Accuser, in Jesus own words, was a murderer ~from the beginning ~ ... before there was an Eden, or a King of Tyrus.

    Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and stood not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
  9. he-man

    he-man he-man

    United States

    Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

    "all nations shall come and worship before [Him]," their King Revelation 15:3
    In Matthew 5:3 Jesus says that the poor in spirit receive the "kingdom of heaven," while the meek "inherit the earth"

    "And You have made them a kingdom (royal race) and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth!" Revelation 5:10

    Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

    Revelation 3:12; 21:2, 10 the "holy city," New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven

    Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people.

    God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away. ... He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son." (Revelation 21:1-4, 7)

    Also see Psalm 2:6-8; 47:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5; Ezekiel 37:21-28; Daniel 2:44-45; 7:17-18, 27; Micah 4:1-5; Zechariah 9:9-10; 14:9, 16-17; Revelation 2:26-27.)
  10. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Idealist Preterist and Amill since 2003 Supporter

    United States

    Young) Revelation 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet,
    and they shall be tormented/basanisqhsontai <928> (5701) day and night--to the ages of the ages.

    Young) Revelation 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger,
    and he shall be tormented/basanisqhsetai <928> (5701) in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers and before the Lamb,

    Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 7
    The words torment, tormented, tormentors, and torments occur twenty-one times in the King James version, and all in the New Testament. Three of these are in connection with the lake of fire. Let me give you the quotations. "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS (MESSENGERS) AND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB: and the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages): and they have no rest day nor night..." (Rev. 14:10-11). "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Greek: unto the ages of the ages - see Part One of this series -'Just What Do You Mean ... ETERNITY!')" (Rev. 20:10).