Contract vs. Covenant - the REAL issue

[Romanseight2005]

It's different because those two things are limited and specific and extreme cases. When one says their vows the idea that one of those things would be included in "for worse" never enters their thinking.

If you are even considering abuse or adultery as a possibility on your wedding day when you make your vows, there no way on Earth you should be getting married.


It sort of like how "except for blaspheming the Holy Spirit" doesn't make the fact that God forgives ALL our sins untrue. It's such an extreme case that it doesn't really enter into the equation, until it actually happens.

It's not that you think it will happen, but if you research what happens to others first, you can lay out a plan for those possibilities, with the thought that you don't think it will happen, but if it does, kind of thing. People do this in business relationships all of the time. They won't go into business with someone they don't trust, but that doesn't mean that they are foolish enough to not lay out a practical plan for common things that happen to other businesses. I am saying that just because a marriage is more personal, and is a covenant, doesn't mean it should be exempt from common sense wisdom.

 

[Created2Write]

It's different because those two things are limited and specific and extreme cases. When one says their vows the idea that one of those things would be included in "for worse" never enters their thinking.

If you are even considering abuse or adultery as a possibility on your wedding day when you make your vows, there no way on Earth you should be getting married.


It sort of like how "except for blaspheming the Holy Spirit" doesn't make the fact that God forgives ALL our sins untrue. It's such an extreme case that it doesn't really enter into the equation, until it actually happens.

Exactly. Good example too, chaz.

 

[mkgal1]

Ive explained how issue mediation let some pressure out of my marriage several years back....simple issue oriented Mt 18-ish 3rd party lay out pro/con, decide and go....it works.
It doesnt appeal to people because usually no one wins completely.

If it is God-directed....EVERYONE should win. That is what is so unique about God's ways.....they are win/win for everyone.

 

[mkgal1]

It's different because those two things are limited and specific and extreme cases. When one says their vows the idea that one of those things would be included in "for worse" never enters their thinking.

If you are even considering abuse or adultery as a possibility on your wedding day when you make your vows, there no way on Earth you should be getting married.


It sort of like how "except for blaspheming the Holy Spirit" doesn't make the fact that God forgives ALL our sins untrue. It's such an extreme case that it doesn't really enter into the equation, until it actually happens.

You missed my point completely....never mind.

 

[mkgal1]

I agree..why promise anything ?If you might as well be promising it to a wall?

If it only requires to call it a "marriage' that as long as ONE person is honoring their vows..one person is loving and honoring and cherishing(those are the typical vows )..and the other is not only not loving and honoring and cheishing back but REJECTING the others love which in a nutshell is what we are talking about .Then the one in the relationship thats trying to love (keep their promise) isnt in a marriage..they are in what sounds like the postion of being a stalker.

Dallas

That's the image that come to my mind, too. We DO define that as "stalker" behavior....when one is trying to get close to another, and the other is rejecting it....why would we say that is SUPPOSED to happen in marriage?

I dont agree..I think maybe what doesnt enter thier mind is that the "worse" will be the other spouse causing misery for lengthy and indefinate chunks of time.

Sickness and in health..I dont think for most people that it enters their mind that it will be their spouse making THEM SICK...

In that sense you are probably right..you arent lookign at the other one when you get marreid as your ENEMY the one that will do YOU HARM and be indiffernt to you and you are vowign to stay with them forever regardless..

Dallas

Right. Vowing, "in sickness and in health...for better or worse" doesn't mean that the sickness and worse comes from the other spouse. We are vowing to love through the difficult times that come from OUTSIDE the marriage....not from the other spouse imposing those things.

 

[dallasapple]

Right. Vowing, "in sickness and in health...for better or worse" doesn't mean that the sickness and worse comes from the other spouse. We are vowing to love through the difficult times that come from OUTSIDE the marriage....not from the other spouse imposing those things.

Right..and I think unfortunately some people think thats EXACTLY what should "enter the minds" of people getting marreid before they take a vow..as in this is just "part of marriage" and thats what we need to put a lot of thought in before we marry..Just "assume' your love..the one you have chosen and chosen you above ALL others ..will be someday the one that is harming you to a point of possible physical ..but definately mental and emotinal illness..onging and indefinately..and you are vowing to "love them" anyway until you die..even if they are running in the opposite direction and rejecting your love..and that your "reward will be in heaven"...

I promise to love honor and respect you ..even in sickness CAUSED by your emotional and mental cruelalty..physcial neglect and indifference as in helping me when Im sick...failure to support me financially ..and sexual rejection..abusive manner towards me..heck even infedelity as long as you say you are sorry and will try and work on it......with death being the only thing to seperate us...

Is NOT what comes to 'mind"..I wonder why?Seems to be what some think is par for the course in marriage..the "purpose" isnt for individual fullfilment nor happiness thats for sure..

Dallas

 

[Hisbygrace]

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The OP:​

Contract vs. Covenant - the REAL issue

I was browsing the interwebs and came across an interesting article on FamilyLife.com and wanted to share it here. It discusses the contract vs. covenant approach to the marriage relationship. I think this really hits at the heart of the debate we see pop up here frequently, so I thought it would be good to cite the article and discuss (not debate/derail/flame) the topic with solid references.

I will break down Contract in the following post and then Covenant in the post after that for us to discuss.

Please - do not address a poster, just the post. Do not debate! Life Stages area is for discussion only. Play nice. No flaming or derailing or I will have the thread closed.

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[FaithPrevails]

That's a really good question. For those that are using that as the definition of covenant..(that it is, "I will do x...no matter what (UNLESS there is adultery or abuse)"....then how is that any different than a contract that states...."I will do x as long as you y" (and the "y" is remain faithful and nonabusive).

I see no difference between the two.

It is a good question. I think C2W answered it pretty well with this post:

One can live out their covenant unconditionally, even if the marriage is towards an end, imo. It would be hard, but it is possible. Just because something may be a legitimate reason to divorce, doesn't mean the spouse who has been committed can't keep living out their vows. Who knows? That could be what saves the marriage. Just because something is a legitimate reason to divorce, doesn't mean divorce should be the route chosen in all cases, either.

I will add that what it looks like, IMO (and what I did in my situation) is this (not limited to this, but these are the basics):

-No dating during separation - only after the divorce is final

-No bad mouthing your estranged spouse

-Forgive any wrongs done by your estranged spouse - even if they aren't apologizing for them or are doing things intentionally to harm you or retaliate

-Do not use your children (if any) as leverage or pawns with your estranged spouse

 

[McScribe]

It's not that you think it will happen, but if you research what happens to others first, you can lay out a plan for those possibilities, with the thought that you don't think it will happen, but if it does, kind of thing. People do this in business relationships all of the time. They won't go into business with someone they don't trust, but that doesn't mean that they are foolish enough to not lay out a practical plan for common things that happen to other businesses. I am saying that just because a marriage is more personal, and is a covenant, doesn't mean it should be exempt from common sense wisdom.

Agreed. I also think that it forces you to not be complacent. It's like living in a place at risk for bad weather and getting house insurance, it's a reality check.

 

[Conservativation]

If it is God-directed....EVERYONE should win. That is what is so unique about God's ways.....they are win/win for everyone.

oh bunk.....you cannot both "win" in negotiating a compromise about some task oriented thing MK. This is some kind of useless cliche "if it is God directed everybody wins" bologna.

example, husband wants to buy new car, wife doesnt. Whatever they do that isnt a new car or no car (a used car?) both lose, the other 2 ways, one loses one wins...the mediation takes in all the pros and cons and renders and opinion.

There is no "God directed" aspect to it

Im sure somehow you will question my faith, throw a scripture at me, something....but thats just not REAL to say that. And its not controversial to SAY its not real. We all "lose" every day, on something. The associated attitude is something else.....but its still a loss.

 

[FaithPrevails]

Agreed. I also think that it forces you to not be complacent. It's like living in a place at risk for bad weather and getting house insurance, it's a reality check.

From what you are saying - it seems to me that it's more about accountability than "agreement" or "contract". Maybe it's just how I am reading what you are suggesting - but that is the thought that popped into my head.

I think accountability is imperative for the survival of any couple...married or dating. We should always be working to help each other continue to grow and mature - both spiritually and as people, in general.

 

[McScribe]

From what you are saying - it seems to me that it's more about accountability than "agreement" or "contract". Maybe it's just how I am reading what you are suggesting - but that is the thought that popped into my head.

I think accountability is imperative for the survival of any couple...married or dating. We should always be working to help each other continue to grow and mature - both spiritually and as people, in general.

I agree with accountability, but I think having it written down might help, at least for the sake of clarity.

 

[FaithPrevails]

I agree with accountability, but I think having it written down might help, at least for the sake of clarity.

Sure, if it helps a couple. It would be sort of like someone writing down goals that they have. Sometimes, the visual helps keep them on-track and motivated. Writing down accountability items could have the same effect.

 

[McScribe]

Sure, if it helps a couple. It would be sort of like someone writing down goals that they have. Sometimes, the visual helps keep them on-track and motivated. Writing down accountability items could have the same effect.

Something else, if you have it written down then it is easier when things go south to at least say, "Look I realize you are upset but we also agreed to a process to working things out, and to voicing concerns before they got out of hand." it would also be easier to point out to say people asking what you've done to try to keep the marriage going that you made every effort and that the other person quit on you.

The sad thing is I don't know if even this would have helped in my case.

 

[FaithPrevails]

Something else, if you have it written down then it is easier when things go south to at least say, "Look I realize you are upset but we also agreed to a process to working things out, and to voicing concerns before they got out of hand." it would also be easier to point out to say people asking what you've done to try to keep the marriage going that you made every effort and that the other person quit on you.

The sad thing is I don't know if even this would have helped in my case.

I don't think there are any absolute fail safe ways to prevent ALL divorce. While we are all works in progress, there are some people who are so spiritually/emotionally "broken" that they can't see past their inner demons and heal themselves in order to begin working on their broken marriage.

 

[Johnnz]

I don't think there are any absolute fail safe ways to prevent ALL divorce. While we are all works in progress, there are some people who are so spiritually/emotionally "broken" that they can't see past their inner demons and heal themselves in order to begin working on their broken marriage.

This is so true. We need to be aware of this and not add to a person's pain by holding up an absolute standard and thereby consigning them to a further sense of guilt and failure.

John
NZ