Contemporary worship vs hymns/psalms

[Daniel9v9]

Where do you stand on contemporary worship music vs hymns/psalms and why?

In my youth, I was a vigorous defender of contemporary worship music. I saw it as true worship and hymns as more or less a type of dead formalism.

Now I'm of the view that:
1. Worship, thanksgiving, praise and even lament are good and Scriptural. However, not at the expense of edification and testimony of God's work - namely the death and resurrection of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. I feel like in our age the educational purpose of song is greatly lacking. There are many verses in Scripture about making music to the Lord, but I think perhaps Paul best summarises it in Colossians: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God." - That is, an important function of song is to teach and admonish one another in faith, contrasted with, say, repeating "God I love you", which in and of itself is good, but suffers from individualism and is not very useful for people to learn about Jesus.

2. Closely related to the above, I feel like many contemporary lyrics are trying hard to be vague and neutral in order to pass for secular music. A lot of lyrics merely allude to Jesus without actually spelling out His name or the specifics of His person and works. (Even just a "Jesus died for you" would suffice!) I'm skeptic to vague lyrics as a tool for outreach. That is, I'm of the view that whatever means we use to fish with, eventually that becomes what we have to use to keep people in Church. viz. if a Church spends a lot of effort on social events to attract people, it typically ends up in a loop having to serve these same things to keep people interested. I think the same applies to music. It can easily fall into a kind of outward or artificial membership not formed by the Gospel and the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

3. I'm agnostic to the style of music. I don't think any one music genre is holier than another. To me this is a matter of adiaphora. Nonetheless, the older I get I do think there is something to be said for having music with a sense of reverence. Whatever form that takes, I think people can be their own judge of.

4. Somewhat on topic, I don't think secular music is appropriate in Church. What is often considered "clean", though it may not have profanity, is almost exclusively theologically challenging and inconsistent with the Gospel if you really consider the lyrics.

That's me. Not denying that I have a fairly strong stance on the subject, but I'm interested to hear yours. There may be things I haven't considered and I'm certainly not looking for any level of heated debate. What do you reckon?

 

[topher694]

1. In Hebrew, there are 7 different words for "praise" each one describing a different aspect of praise. From being clamorously foolish (see David), to extreme reverence. All are important. Ideally a worship leader should be tuned into the Spirit and flow in and out of these 7 as He leads.

2. I agree wholeheartedly. A mentor of mine often says, there is no such thing as Christian music, only Christian lyrics. That being said there are still some very good contemporary songs out there that do not fall into that trap, and some hymns that are very questionable. We just need to be discerning.

3. Also agree. See 1, reverence is very much one aspect of praise & worship.

4. Again agree. I don't have issue with listening to secular music (love the 80s myself), but it is really just pointless in church, imo.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Where do you stand on contemporary worship music vs hymns/psalms and why?

In my youth, I was a vigorous defender of contemporary worship music. I saw it as true worship and hymns as more or less a type of dead formalism.

Now I'm of the view that:
1. Worship, thanksgiving, praise and even lament are good and Scriptural. However, not at the expense of edification and testimony of God's work - namely the death and resurrection of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. I feel like in our age the educational purpose of song is greatly lacking. There are many verses in Scripture about making music to the Lord, but I think perhaps Paul best summarises it in Colossians: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God." - That is, an important function of song is to teach and admonish one another in faith, contrasted with, say, repeating "God I love you", which in and of itself is good, but suffers from individualism and is not very useful for people to learn about Jesus.

2. Closely related to the above, I feel like many contemporary lyrics are trying hard to be vague and neutral in order to pass for secular music. A lot of lyrics merely allude to Jesus without actually spelling out His name or the specifics of His person and works. (Even just a "Jesus died for you" would suffice!) I'm skeptic to vague lyrics as a tool for outreach. That is, I'm of the view that whatever means we use to fish with, eventually that becomes what we have to use to keep people in Church. viz. if a Church spends a lot of effort on social events to attract people, it typically ends up in a loop having to serve these same things to keep people interested. I think the same applies to music. It can easily fall into a kind of outward or artificial membership not formed by the Gospel and the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

3. I'm agnostic to the style of music. I don't think any one music genre is holier than another. To me this is a matter of adiaphora. Nonetheless, the older I get I do think there is something to be said for having music with a sense of reverence. Whatever form that takes, I think people can be their own judge of.

4. Somewhat on topic, I don't think secular music is appropriate in Church. What is often considered "clean", though it may not have profanity, is almost exclusively theologically challenging and inconsistent with the Gospel if you really consider the lyrics.

That's me. Not denying that I have a fairly strong stance on the subject, but I'm interested to hear yours. There may be things I haven't considered and I'm certainly not looking for any level of heated debate. What do you reckon?

I believe what bothers me is the entertainment value. I do not want to go to a congregation and watch musicians play on a stage while the audience gets whipped into an emotional even ecstatic state. Too flesh driven. Anyway, that's just me.
Blessings

 

[Shane R]

Most contemporary music has not been time tested in worshiping communities and it won't be because the people who write it are under the same pressure as their secular peers to produce something new regularly. A counterpoint is that some of the traditional hymns have been tested and essentially failed. Few churches use even half of the songs in a hymnal.

Contemporary praise music seems to demand a particular presentation and aesthetic that is not very beautiful. When the screen comes down and obscures the cross at the front of the church, that is sending some kind of message about what is important.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Where do you stand on contemporary worship music vs hymns/psalms and why?

Generally, I find most CCM to have poor theology especially from a traditional POV. CCM comes out of the 1950s evangelical / hippie scene. I am doing a bit of cherry picking here but you get the idea:

Decision theology:
I have decided,
I'm gonna live like a believer,
Turn my back on the deceiver,
I'm gonna live what I believe.

Non-sacramental:
“Do this in memory of me
This is my body, given for you
Do this in memory of me
Take it and eat it, remember me, remember me.“

Historic:

Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent (one of the oldest Christian hymns and used as Eucharistic hymn, teaching some kind of Real Presence or transformation of the bread and the wine into the Body and Blood of Christ)

King of kings, yet born of Mary,
as of old on earth He stood,
Lord of lords, in human vesture -
in the body and the blood.
He will give to all the faithful
His own self for heavenly food.

15th antiphon of Orthodox Great Thursday (Which teaches the two natures of Christ)
Today He Who hung the earth upon the waters is hung on the Tree (x3)
The King of the Angels is decked with a crown of thorns
He Who wraps the heavens in clouds, is wrapped in the purple of mockery
He Who freed Adam in the Jordan is slapped on the face
The Bridegroom of the Church, is affixed to the Cross with nails
The Son of the Virgin is pierced by the spear
We worship Thy Passion, O Christ (x3)
Show us also Thy Glorious, Resurrection!

 

[Pioneer3mm]

1. In Hebrew, there are 7 different words for "praise" each one describing a different aspect of praise. From being clamorously foolish (see David), to extreme reverence. All are important. Ideally a worship leader should be tuned into the Spirit and flow in and out of these 7 as He leads.

2. I agree wholeheartedly. A mentor of mine often says, there is no such thing as Christian music, only Christian lyrics. That being said there are still some very good contemporary songs out there that do not fall into that trap, and some hymns that are very questionable. We just need to be discerning.

3. Also agree. See 1, reverence is very much one aspect of praise & worship.

4. Again agree. I don't have issue with listening to secular music (love the 80s myself), but it is really just pointless in church, imo.

You wrote, " ..need to be discerning. "
- I agree.
More discernment needed..both in contemporary songs
and hymns.

 

[PloverWing]

I don't think we're commanded to use one type of music or another in our worship; it's fine for people to use whatever kind of music brings them closer to God.

For myself: In general, I prefer hymns to most contemporary praise music. Well-written poetry set to music with 4 or more lines of choral harmony tends to be what touches me. Hymns have this structure, as do many choral anthems. Most of my favorite ones come out of the Renaissance or Baroque periods, although there are some good newer hymns and choral pieces. By contrast, most of the contemporary praise music that I've heard has simpler words and harmonies, and I tend not to find enough substance there to engage my soul.

That's a generality. There are some boring hymns, and some awful hymns, and there is some praise music that I like. But I have a general preference for hymns.

 

[tz620q]

2. Closely related to the above, I feel like many contemporary lyrics are trying hard to be vague and neutral in order to pass for secular music. A lot of lyrics merely allude to Jesus without actually spelling out His name or the specifics of His person and works. (Even just a "Jesus died for you" would suffice!)

After listening to a lot of praise music, I came up with my I, me, you versus God, Lord, Christ ratio. If the song uses I, me, you more than it does God, Lord, Christ, who is it really praising? I have heard songs that use Him to refer to God without any antecedent. So when heard in a secular way, saying I love Him sounds more palatable than I love God.

 

[FenderTL5]

After listening to a lot of praise music, I came up with my I, me, you versus God, Lord, Christ ratio. If the song uses I, me, you more than it does God, Lord, Christ, who is it really praising? I have heard songs that use Him to refer to God without any antecedent. So when heard in a secular way, saying I love Him sounds more palatable than I love God.

I can certainly respect that, especially with some of the modern "more me" focused material.

Just curious; have you tried applying that same criteria to the Psalms?
Psalm 23 (22 Septuagint)
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

 

[ViaCrucis]

At the end of the day what is it that we, as the people of Jesus Christ, are saying?

The Lutheran approach to church music is that it is confession, theological confession. The ancient axiom of Lex orandi, lex credendi holds (or should hold) sway. What we pray (and by extension, what we sing) informs and forms what we believe.

Week after week the congregation will no doubt hear sermon after sermon, homily after homily, and even if one presents the most beautiful and articulate homily, it still won't stay in the minds of the congregation the same way as what is prayed and sung. Music is funny that way, it penetrates our minds far more deeply than the simple spoken word.

I can remember the lyrics to dozens of songs I sang as a kid. But I wouldn't be able to tell you hardly anything about the sermon I heard a couple weeks ago, let alone years ago. And I imagine most of you could probably say the same thing.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tz620q]

I can certainly respect that, especially with some of the modern "more me" focused material.

Just curious; have you tried applying that same criteria to the Psalms?
Psalm 23 (22 Septuagint)
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

That is a good point. One of the most enjoyable things I do is sing the Psalms. The director tells us to always be mindful of who is speaking to whom and what is the purpose. So are we asking for protection, forgiveness, a virtuous life, etc.? Or is God talking to us through the Psalm? But I think in nearly every Psalm the object of the worship is clear and the style of worship humble. Maybe that is what is really missing in some contemporary songs.

 

[Athanasias]

Where do you stand on contemporary worship music vs hymns/psalms and why?

In my youth, I was a vigorous defender of contemporary worship music. I saw it as true worship and hymns as more or less a type of dead formalism.

Now I'm of the view that:
1. Worship, thanksgiving, praise and even lament are good and Scriptural. However, not at the expense of edification and testimony of God's work - namely the death and resurrection of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. I feel like in our age the educational purpose of song is greatly lacking. There are many verses in Scripture about making music to the Lord, but I think perhaps Paul best summarises it in Colossians: "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God." - That is, an important function of song is to teach and admonish one another in faith, contrasted with, say, repeating "God I love you", which in and of itself is good, but suffers from individualism and is not very useful for people to learn about Jesus.

2. Closely related to the above, I feel like many contemporary lyrics are trying hard to be vague and neutral in order to pass for secular music. A lot of lyrics merely allude to Jesus without actually spelling out His name or the specifics of His person and works. (Even just a "Jesus died for you" would suffice!) I'm skeptic to vague lyrics as a tool for outreach. That is, I'm of the view that whatever means we use to fish with, eventually that becomes what we have to use to keep people in Church. viz. if a Church spends a lot of effort on social events to attract people, it typically ends up in a loop having to serve these same things to keep people interested. I think the same applies to music. It can easily fall into a kind of outward or artificial membership not formed by the Gospel and the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

3. I'm agnostic to the style of music. I don't think any one music genre is holier than another. To me this is a matter of adiaphora. Nonetheless, the older I get I do think there is something to be said for having music with a sense of reverence. Whatever form that takes, I think people can be their own judge of.

4. Somewhat on topic, I don't think secular music is appropriate in Church. What is often considered "clean", though it may not have profanity, is almost exclusively theologically challenging and inconsistent with the Gospel if you really consider the lyrics.

That's me. Not denying that I have a fairly strong stance on the subject, but I'm interested to hear yours. There may be things I haven't considered and I'm certainly not looking for any level of heated debate. What do you reckon?

Lex orandi lex credendi

 

[RDKirk]

"Amazing Grace" is pretty self-focused.

The more spirit-touching contemporary songs are, to me, those that actually give witness to what the Lord has done for them (what "witness" actually means).

"I once was lost, but now I'm found." There are many ways to say that, and they're all valid, when whether said explicitly or known in context that the Lord did the finding.

 

[FireDragon76]

I wish my congregation would ditch the 18th-19th century Anglo-American hymns with quqstionable theology and/or piety, but they are popular with old folks who are morbidly sentimental. I prefer contemporary hymns.

I really like this one, it was inspired by the writer's stay at St. Augustine House, a Lutheran monastery in the midwest, and was written in the early 70's, I believe:

I think this one sums up alot of the direction of post WWII theology in my tradition, and in mainline traditions in general:

This is one we sing at baptisms. It is unusual because it is sung from the perspective of God:

"Amazing Grace" is pretty self-focused.

Indeed. It's rooted in English Puritanism, as well, and the self-focus is part of that package, since Puritanism was the original experiential expression of Protestantism. But for some reason, lots of Christians like singing it, no matter how inappopriate the theology expressed. I think because of all the associations the song has in our culture.

 

[straykat]

I wouldn't exactly compare hymns/psalms as the same thing. Psalms are actually the scriptural psalms. Hymns are nice, but not really that different than contemporary songs. I'm fond of all of them, but nothing tops the Psalms. Obviously, as they're from the word of God.

 

[FireDragon76]

I wouldn't exactly compare hymns/psalms as the same thing. Psalms are actually the scriptural psalms. Hymns are nice, but not really that different than contemporary songs. I'm fond of all of them, but nothing tops the Psalms. Obviously, as they're from the word of God.

The Psalms are timeless. We are lucky that we have good cantors at church and have antiphonal psalmody.

 

[tz620q]

I wish my congregation would ditch the 18th-19th century Anglo-American hymns with quqstionable theology and/or piety, but they are popular with old folks who are morbidly sentimental. I prefer contemporary hymns.

My choir director and I were going through a new hymnal and I remarked on "Jesus Walked This Lonesome Valley" that I remembered it fondly from singing it as a child. Then we looked over the lyrics. The first verse is fine. Jesus did walk a lonesome valley; but then the second verse says we must walk the lonesome valley by ourselves. We looked at each other and did a virtual headslap. Jesus walked that valley so we won't have to walk it by ourselves. The final verse doubles down and says we have to stand our trial by ourselves, a direct contradiction of Scripture that tells us we will have an advocate in Jesus. Good tune + poor theology = forget about singing it in church.

 

[FireDragon76]

My choir director and I were going through a new hymnal and I remarked on "Jesus Walked This Lonesome Valley" that I remembered it fondly from singing it as a child. Then we looked over the lyrics. The first verse is fine. Jesus did walk a lonesome valley; but then the second verse says we must walk the lonesome valley by ourselves. We looked at each other and did a virtual headslap. Jesus walked that valley so we won't have to walk it by ourselves. The final verse doubles down and says we have to stand our trial by ourselves, a direct contradiction of Scripture that tells us we will have an advocate in Jesus. Good tune + poor theology = forget about singing it in church.

Alot of those older hyms are motivated by romanticism and some of the same undecurrents that lead to old-school liberal theology. Doctrine is very much secondary. Some of those hymns are less interested in the Gospel, than they are holding sinners feet to the fire, even in a Hallmark kind of way, it's still potentially pernicious.

I am willing to tolerate some hymns that are less than edifying, not wanting the perfect to be the enemy of the good, but I think when sentimentality and misguided tradition is the dominant ethos, that's just intolerable. As VC says, we should sing what we believe.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Alot of those older hyms are motivated by romanticism and some of the same undecurrents that lead to old-school liberal theology. Doctrine is very much secondary. Some of those hymns are less interested in the Gospel, than they are holding sinners feet to the fire, even in a Hallmark kind of way, it's still potentially pernicious.

I am willing to tolerate some hymns that are less than edifying, not wanting the perfect to be the enemy of the good, but I think when sentimentality and misguided tradition is the dominant ethos, that's just intolerable. As VC says, we should sing what we believe.

I'll never forget the look on an LCMS pastor's face for his installation, the choir opened up with "I Have Decided".

PS- Lutherans theologically are monergists.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'll never forget the look on an LCMS pastor's face for his installation, the choir opened up with "I Have Decided".

PS- Lutherans theologically are monergists.

I think actually a song like "I have decided to follow Jesus" would be OK in a Lutheran church (though perhaps not the best possible choice), and would only be unacceptable in the most wooden interpretations of our confessions. There's nothing wrong with deciding to follow Jesus in itself, it's only a problem when we start believing that deciding to follow Jesus is the cause of our salvation, as many evangelicals in the US do.

We actually do sing a hymn that is Catholic in origin every year or so around the time of the celebration of the calling of the first disciples, it was originally Spanish language, called "Lord, you have come to the seashore" ("Pescador de Hombres", which IMO, is better in Spanish) that at first glance, is about deciding to follow Jesus. But on a deeper level, it is also about Christ personally calling us.

I think its more about what the big picture of the hymns we sing in church is saying about our beliefs.