"Conservatives" and the right are not the ones responsible for the current mess in societies

[Justified_By_Christ_Alone]

Modern day conservatives aren't really conservative at least not in the Christian sense. It has become more about neo-fascism and populism, not about traditional family values and life issues. The extreme right that is popular today is the opposite of Christian conservative worldviews. It's just as bad as the extreme left if not worse.

 

[FireDragon76]

There have been, but not a ton. And he's not that much of an exception. Part of the stickiness of this charge is related to the office of the presidency which, unlike other elected offices, requires a president to be a "natural born" citizen. There have only been 10 black senators in US history, 8 of which were since 1900. Of them, two (Obama and Harris) were their party nominees for president and both faced challenges to their citizenship.



My point is that while the whites get accused of being not "real Americans", non-whites get accused of literally being foreign.



It is debatable and that's another part of what trips up so many conservatives. Many people don't buy the premise that there's anything wrong with abortion in the first place.

Or you have the case of a country like Japan. It's predominantly Shinto and Buddhist, and there is no question that the embryo or fetus is a living being who has come into the world. But it's also understood that the State doesn't have a legitimate interest in interfering in the bodily autonomy of women.

 

[Justified_By_Christ_Alone]

Or you have the case of a country like Japan. It's predominantly Shinto and Buddhist, and there is no question that the embryo or fetus is a living being who has come into the world. But it's also understood that the State doesn't have a legitimate interest in interfering in the bodily autonomy of women.

It's not body autonomy when you have another person living inside you. It then becomes murder.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's not body autonomy when you have another person living inside you. It then becomes murder.

Of course there are concerns about bodily autonomy. If you had a hangnail, you would remove it, and you wouldn't stand for somebody else telling you "no". Likewise, a woman has an interest in having choice over what happens to her own body.

 

[Arcangl86]

It's not body autonomy when you have another person living inside you. It then becomes murder.

Murder is by definition illegal. It does arguable become homicide, but most people i know who are anti abortion are fine with certain other forms of homicide.

 

[Justified_By_Christ_Alone]

Of course there are concerns about bodily autonomy. If you had a hangnail, you would remove it, and you wouldn't stand for somebody else telling you "no". Likewise, a woman has an interest in having choice over what happens to her own body.

Comparing a human life to a hangnail? Wow.

 

[Xenophon]

Modern day conservatives aren't really conservative at least not in the Christian sense. It has become more about neo-fascism and populism, not about traditional family values and life issues. The extreme right that is popular today is the opposite of Christian conservative worldviews. It's just as bad as the extreme left if not worse.

And where is this extreme right? Oh, literally everywhere that was right of middle yesterday. Shift that Overton window to the left a bit more so that even the communists are 'extreme right wing' lol.

 

[stevil]

Everybody else (mostly from the media) is telling us that the "left" (socialists, communists, "social justice warriors") are the good guys who care about the disadvantaged and the right are the "bad" guys who are the racists, homophobes, sexists, etc.

When I watch media shows I don't generally see then generalise on a "left" vs "right" division.
When I watch FoxNews I frequently hear them characterise the "left" and "liberals" - mischaracterise, that is.

 

[rjs330]

That isn’t the only issue. How do you prevent it? No state has ever been able to. That is only one of be the issues. Whether or not you think it is wrong is not really relevant to the actual practicalities of it. There are plenty of other perfectly legal things that people do that are linked to the suffering of others - greed is wrong, exploitation is wrong and so on. But saying that doesn’t offer any kind of solution, and pretending there isn’t a need for a solution is a cop-out.

Prevention is a really lousy way to determine if something should be allowed or not. We can't prevent theft, but that hasn't stopped us from outlawing it. Practicalities is NOT a reason to decide whether something should be outlawed or not. There are a lot of laws and regulations on the books that are difficult to enforce, but that's not the criteria.

The criteria is often based upon the welfare of the individual involved. Usually the innocent party. In this case a baby. No, we would never be able to prevent abortions from taking place. But not being able to completely stop something isn't a reason not to.

We haven't been able to stop bigotry, but that hasn't stopped us from trying.

 

[rjs330]

Modern day conservatives aren't really conservative at least not in the Christian sense. It has become more about neo-fascism and populism, not about traditional family values and life issues. The extreme right that is popular today is the opposite of Christian conservative worldviews. It's just as bad as the extreme left if not worse.

What do you mean in the "Christian sense"? Modern conservatives aren't Christian enough?

Modern conservatives are neo-facists? Citation needed on that.

I guess modern leftists are communists then.

Modern conservatives are still primarily focused on traditional family values and life issues.

You demonizing them is helping. And it's a typical strategy of the left now, because if you can make them all bad, you can do what you like to them.

 

[FireDragon76]

Prevention is a really lousy way to determine if something should be allowed or not. We can't prevent theft, but that hasn't stopped us from outlawing it. Practicalities is NOT a reason to decide whether something should be outlawed or not. There are a lot of laws and regulations on the books that are difficult to enforce, but that's not the criteria.

The criteria is often based upon the welfare of the individual involved. Usually the innocent party. In this case a baby. No, we would never be able to prevent abortions from taking place. But not being able to completely stop something isn't a reason not to.

We haven't been able to stop bigotry, but that hasn't stopped us from trying.

Who is trying to police peoples thoughts (as if such a thing were possible)? I haven't seen any serious evidence for that. Some people are concerned about the effects of other peoples behaviors, not their inner lives. The bogieman that liberals or progressives are "thought police" is a tired meme of the Right, but it's anti-intellectual

 

[rjs330]

Who is trying to police peoples thoughts (as if such a thing were possible)? I haven't seen any serious evidence for that. Some people are concerned about the effects of other peoples behaviors, not their inner lives. The bogieman that liberals or progressives are "thought police" is a tired meme of the Right, but it's anti-intellectual

You may have the wrong poster here.

However I will say this. The idea of "thought police" isn't really based just on thoughts. It's based upon expression of those thoughts.

I believe you know this. How can anyone police thought? Last I knew none of us are actual mind readers. Thoughts are usually expressed by speech. Belief is expressed by speech or writing etc. What good are your thoughts on a subject if you are not allowed to express them?

That's why the freedom of speech is so crucial to a free society. Even in Germany you could believe Nazis were evil. But you couldn't say anything.

That's what thought police is all about. Thoughts are pretty much worthless if you cannot express them.

 

[stevil]

Everybody else (mostly from the media) is telling us that the "left" (socialists, communists, "social justice warriors") are the good guys who care about the disadvantaged and the right are the "bad" guys who are the racists, homophobes, sexists, etc.

Am I correct in assuming this in the the context of USA?

The rest of the developed free world aren't this extreme with regards to labelling people who lean left or lean right.

 

[FireDragon76]

You may have the wrong poster here.

However I will say this. The idea of "thought police" isn't really based just on thoughts. It's based upon expression of those thoughts.

I believe you know this. How can anyone police thought? Last I knew none of us are actual mind readers. Thoughts are usually expressed by speech. Belief is expressed by speech or writing etc. What good are your thoughts on a subject if you are not allowed to express them?

That's why the freedom of speech is so crucial to a free society. Even in Germany you could believe Nazis were evil. But you couldn't say anything.

That's what thought police is all about. Thoughts are pretty much worthless if you cannot express them.

Expressions of speech meant to instill fear or hatred should not be tolerated in a just society. Everyone has the right to live in peace, as long as they aren't harming other people.

 

[rjs330]

Expressions of speech meant to instill fear or hatred should not be tolerated in a just society. Everyone has the right to live in peace, as long as they aren't harming other people.

Why not? You haven't defined what fear or hate speech is. Right now it is against the law to threaten someone. So your definition so far goes completely against the constitution. Sounds like you are advocating for a serious removal of free speech.

 

[FireDragon76]

Why not? You haven't defined what fear or hate speech is. Right now it is against the law to threaten someone. So your definition so far goes completely against the constitution. Sounds like you are advocating for a serious removal of free speech.

If you don't understand what fear or hatred looks like, then you have failed to cultivate your humanity.

 

[rjs330]

If you don't understand what fear or hatred looks like, then you have failed to cultivate your humanity.

I have my doubts that your definition of speech meant to untill hate or fear is not a correct definition.

And what do you mean exactly by not tolerated?

 

[stevevw]

Everybody else (mostly from the media) is telling us that the "left" (socialists, communists, "social justice warriors") are the good guys who care about the disadvantaged and the right are the "bad" guys who are the racists, homophobes, sexists, etc. If not explicitly, it has become so pervasive to the point where a little of it has even spread to the "right-wing" side.

I am not a racist or homophobe just because I sympathize with many of the right-wing worldviews. Yet, people are insisting that people like me am. It's even affecting areas that were previously seen as "conservative" like the church and religion.

<Staff Edit>

I think the main reason conservatives are said to be bigots, racists and homophobes is based on a misrepresentation of their position and opposing ideas of what truth and reality represent between conservatives and liberals. When someone of a conservative leaning disagrees with leftist ideals they are not being hateful or bigoted but merely presenting their view or even the facts of the matter. The left seem to want to disregard facts and base truth and reality on individual views and self-identification. They want to shut down any opposing views and see them as an attack on the individual.

Primarily the difference is the far left will determine truth through ideals like social justice and equity based on self-identity and perspectives and this leads to identity politics and PC. Take for example gender and transgender identity. They believe that there is no innate male and female. This is based on how an individual identifies and this is regarded as the only true measure. Whereas conservatives will state that sex also needs to be included. These are two opposing views.

Because the left place a lot of emphasis on self-identity and self-referencing as the measure of reality and truth they have to silence any opposing views or facts that will contradict that position. Because the self is used as the measure of reality anyone who makes opposing claims such as a male cannot become female is taken to not only opposes that view but to attack the person as well. That is why the left will say that anyone who makes such claims is a bigot or racist and that the language used is hate speech and even violent speak. That is why we see such emotion and heated debates on these issues.

But to the conservative this is just a fact of life and nature. It’s not personal but something that is obvious and should not be denied. This comes down to a clash of views in how people see reality. That is why the left is about denying and minimizing any differences between people. For example no one is really overweight; people just come in various sizes. To have measures of people such as the BMI is being prejudice and fat shaming people. This applies to all areas where people are different like gender. In this case there are no genders just a scale of various genders. So anyone who says there are only male and female according to biological sex will be seen as bigoted.

Or to say that there are differences between males and females is bigoted because according to the ideology there is no difference, a women should be able to do anything a man can do and not be discriminated against. Even to the point that you cannot say a male cannot have babies or breast feed as this is discriminatory against transgender women. The leftist ideology has to follow this logic as it is a natural progression from the idea that there are no differences and that reality is what you make it and humans can be anything and come in all shapes, and identities.

Therefore truth and reality under leftist ideologies will be to deny objective reality and the science and facts like the medical evidence such as the BMI which determines health or biological sex which determines males and females. The lefts premise in denying facts is that the individual determines their status and reality and therefore facts discriminate. So the left has to deny the science and more or less lie to people about what is really happening.

We use to believe in giving a little painful truth to help someone and tell them the truth such as perhaps you are overweight and need to get healthy otherwise you may die. Now if we give that sort of reality people are seen as bigots and being hateful. That’s how crazy things have become IMO.

I think overall the west has moved into a post-modernist era where people are questioning and challenging past ideas of how to determine reality including enlightened thinking and science. This includes the idea that there is no truth, objective reality and human nature and that the individual creates their own truth and reality.

So the left will reject science as an idea that disempowers individuals rather than being just facts. That is why the left relates to cultural Marxism as this primarily sees everything as a battle between those with power and those without and we are seeing the growth of identity politics.

 

[VCR-2000]

I think the main reason conservatives are said to be bigots, racists and homophobes is based on a misrepresentation of their position and opposing ideas of what truth and reality represent between conservatives and liberals. When someone of a conservative leaning disagrees with leftist ideals they are not being hateful or bigoted but merely presenting their view or even the facts of the matter. The left seem to want to disregard facts and base truth and reality on individual views and self-identification. They want to shut down any opposing views and see them as an attack on the individual.

Primarily the difference is the far left will determine truth through ideals like social justice and equity based on self-identity and perspectives and this leads to identity politics and PC. Take for example gender and transgender identity. They believe that there is no innate male and female. This is based on how an individual identifies and this is regarded as the only true measure. Whereas conservatives will state that sex also needs to be included. These are two opposing views.

Because the left place a lot of emphasis on self-identity and self-referencing as the measure of reality and truth they have to silence any opposing views or facts that will contradict that position. Because the self is used as the measure of reality anyone who makes opposing claims such as a male cannot become female is taken to not only opposes that view but to attack the person as well. That is why the left will say that anyone who makes such claims is a bigot or racist and that the language used is hate speech and even violent speak. That is why we see such emotion and heated debates on these issues.

But to the conservative this is just a fact of life and nature. It’s not personal but something that is obvious and should not be denied. This comes down to a clash of views in how people see reality. That is why the left is about denying and minimizing any differences between people. For example no one is really overweight; people just come in various sizes. To have measures of people such as the BMI is being prejudice and fat shaming people. This applies to all areas where people are different like gender. In this case there are no genders just a scale of various genders. So anyone who says there are only male and female according to biological sex will be seen as bigoted.

Or to say that there are differences between males and females is bigoted because according to the ideology there is no difference, a women should be able to do anything a man can do and not be discriminated against. Even to the point that you cannot say a male cannot have babies or breast feed as this is discriminatory against transgender women. The leftist ideology has to follow this logic as it is a natural progression from the idea that there are no differences and that reality is what you make it and humans can be anything and come in all shapes, and identities.

Therefore truth and reality under leftist ideologies will be to deny objective reality and the science and facts like the medical evidence such as the BMI which determines health or biological sex which determines males and females. The lefts premise in denying facts is that the individual determines their status and reality and therefore facts discriminate. So the left has to deny the science and more or less lie to people about what is really happening.

We use to believe in giving a little painful truth to help someone and tell them the truth such as perhaps you are overweight and need to get healthy otherwise you may die. Now if we give that sort of reality people are seen as bigots and being hateful. That’s how crazy things have become IMO.

I think overall the west has moved into a post-modernist era where people are questioning and challenging past ideas of how to determine reality including enlightened thinking and science. This includes the idea that there is no truth, objective reality and human nature and that the individual creates their own truth and reality.

So the left will reject science as an idea that disempowers individuals rather than being just facts. That is why the left relates to cultural Marxism as this primarily sees everything as a battle between those with power and those without and we are seeing the growth of identity politics.

I think that sounds kind of paradoxical.

 

[stevil]

When someone of a conservative leaning disagrees with leftist ideals they are not being hateful or bigoted but merely presenting their view or even the facts of the matter.

It's not just a left vs right thing.
Let's say the left like unions and let's say the right don't like unions, that doesn't mean that the right are being hateful or bigoted.

The reason why many on the right are accused of hate and bigotry is because they appear to be bigotted.
e.g. fighting against gay marriage, fighting against gay school teachers, fighting against gays adopting children, kicking trans out of the military, voting to ban Muslims (cheering on a leader when he promises to ban Muslims), supporting a leader when he wants to build a wall to keep out Mexicans, suggesting that they are drug dealers and rapists. Supporting a leader when he tells USA citizen Congress women to go back to where they came from.

It's not about conflicting with leftist ideals, its about doing and supporting bigotry.

Primarily the difference is the far left will determine truth through ideals like social justice and equity based on self-identity and perspectives and this leads to identity politics and PC.

The left recognise that society is made up of people from all sorts of backgrounds and cultures and beliefs and non beliefs, and they support that, and don't choose to pick on minority groups.

Take for example gender and transgender identity. They believe that there is no innate male and female. This is based on how an individual identifies and this is regarded as the only true measure. Whereas conservatives will state that sex also needs to be included. These are two opposing views.

Not really, no.
The left recognise that there are people with gender dysphoria and are open minded and compassionate enough to try to help these people out, to accommodate them.
The right have this "idealistic" view and remain stubborn and attack these people, saying that they have mental issues and should not be accomodated, but instead should look for a cure.

Because the left place a lot of emphasis on self-identity and self-referencing as the measure of reality and truth they have to silence any opposing views or facts that will contradict that position.

The left are trying to stamp out bigotry. People that attack minorities don't lead to social harmony.

But to the conservative this is just a fact of life and nature. It’s not personal but something that is obvious and should not be denied. This comes down to a clash of views in how people see reality.

I don't see why conservatives cannot be kind to others, why they feel the need to stand in judgement and to ridicule others and treat them poorly. Surely this isn't a core conservative value.

That is why the left is about denying and minimizing any differences between people.

The left are about inclusiveness, supporting of diversity and against bigotry.
I don't know why the (USA brand of the) right can't be for these things as well.