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Featured conservative groups fight mindfulness in schools

Discussion in 'Current News & Events' started by FireDragon76, Jul 10, 2019 at 9:44 AM.

  1. Pedra

    Pedra Newbie

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    Well I am an ex NEW AGER who studied Buddhism & Hinduism etc... in depth and you obviously are still a practitioner of mysticsm which is not in keeping with Biblical Christianity. Thomas Merton and the likes are not who Christ following Christians should be emulating.
    Your views on meditation are not from the Bible.
    Where does the scripture said to "empty your mind" and let God fill it? No where, because that is not a Christian practice but one of the heretical pagan spiritual practices which the Bible shows GOD hates.
    Rcc & Russian or Eastern Orthodox as well as other modern liberal christian denominations have let in many heresies for eg. But believers are to follow the wisdom & knowledge from the Biblical canon contained in the 66 books ---not from C.S. Lewis or other spiritual writings , that are not the Word of GOD.

    The "desert fathers" brought in heresies, gnosticism, mysticism, foreign spiritual pagan practices and are not who should be emulated. Here is what God had to say about these practices in Isaiah 2:
    -"O house of Jacob, come and let us walk In the light of the LORD. For You have forsaken Your people, the house of Jacob, Because they are filled with eastern ways; They are soothsayers like the Philistines, And they are pleased with the children of foreigners. Their land is also full of silver and gold, And there is no end to their treasures; Their land is also full of horses, And there is no end to their chariots. Their land is also full of idols; They worship the work of their own hands, That which their own fingers have made. People bow down, And each man humbles himself." Isaiah 2: 5-6
     
  2. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    My daughter attended elementary school in Hawaii, where they have a state-wide K-12 "Hawaiiana" program that actually brings in pagan priests (kahunas) to teach the children actual pagan praise and worship songs and chants.

    My daughter came home with a paper with a song she was to learn that began, "O great Pele, creator of the universe, we worship and adore you..." She asked us if she really had to learn that.

    We got her excused by the teacher from participating in the pageant for which the kids were learning that song. A bit later, the principal walked by the class area and saw my daughter and another child sitting and reading instead of practicing the song. She berated my daughter, which involved another trip by me and my wife to deal with that issue.

    The principal said, "None of the other Christian parents have a problem with it...why do you?"

    That was actually the only question my daughter had about the incident...why didn't the other Christian parents (save one) have a problem with it.

    But at the time, we were attending Calvary Chapel of Honolulu in which the pastor Bill Stonebraker was fully aware of what was going on in the schools, and they had a hard-core children's curriculum designed to deal with it. My daughter is now thirty years old, and she will still quickly give credit to that program for her firm foundation in the Word.
     
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  3. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    So now we are down to denigrating things from other cultures, merely because it's not from "us"? That doesn't seem right. It seems uncharitable/unloving and tribalistic.

    And what does it say that you would denigrate the efforts of criminals who have sought to reform their lives, merely because they haven't become Evangelicals such as yourself?

    Does God actually have "parameters"? What makes you an expert on those parameters?

    Quakers believe God is in everyone and that everyone can relate to God on their own terms. They were one of the few Christian groups to not demonize the Native American's religion. Maybe some Christians could learn something from them.

    Yeah, it means I believe in having an open mind.
     
  4. Deborah D

    Deborah D Prayer Warrior Supporter

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    Thanks for your comments. I guess you know that I was asking the OP about having children.

    It's great that you and your wife had the presence of mind to pull your daughter out of the pagan program. Unfortunately, a lot of parents don't have your level of knowledge or devotion. So, should we turn a blind eye to New Age indoctrination in the schools because parents should take more responsibility for their children?

    What's so sad to me as a former public school teacher is that Bible teaching has been REPLACED with this New Age indoctrination. And it's been going on for decades. I feel a responsibility as a concerned citizen at least to inform parents about the potential dangers.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019 at 8:11 PM
  5. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla Well-Known Member

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    It is one thing to instruct a child on a topic and another to provide a rebuttal for its introduction elsewhere. It’s impossible to gauge the result of their exposure and probable the parent would be more discerning in their presentation than a stranger would.

    The omission of your susceptibility to Islam doesn’t alter the reality that exposure impacts others differently. We see continual evidence of this in society. Paul’s words come to mind:

    “All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.”

    It’s immaterial what we believe. We’ve already decided but for those who haven’t yielded themselves to God the introduction of alternative practices could prove harmful.

    I’m certain you’ve heard of instances where two people try drugs. One has a good time and forgets his experience and the next falls into addiction. We are incapable of understanding the nuances of our fashioning let alone another’s. Only God knows what will help and harm us.

    Or not. The issue is many layered and we’re addressing souls in our discussion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019 at 12:41 PM
  6. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    As I pointed out, you're just upset that you can't indoctrinate our children with your religious views. This isn't about actually helping students, it's about promoting ideology.
     
  7. Deborah D

    Deborah D Prayer Warrior Supporter

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    "Our children?" Do you have any children? Or are you conveniently avoiding answering this question?

    Edit: The first community schools in what came to be the U.S.A. were established by the Puritans in order to teach children to read the Bible. So, it's not just MY religious views that we're talking about.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019 at 8:12 PM
  8. Deborah D

    Deborah D Prayer Warrior Supporter

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    Your views seem very liberal. Do you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God?

    I believe that instead of having an "open mind," which is the world's standard, it's important for Christians to have the mind of Christ and view the world through the lens of His written Word. After all, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
     
  9. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla Well-Known Member

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    I didn’t denigrate anyone’s culture and openly acknowledged my familiarity and former practice. It is unlikely I would subscribe to a path whose ethos I didn’t respect to some degree.

    You are demonstrating my point in your retort. I haven’t addressed the individuals at all. I merely shared what was stated on the website. You are making grand assumptions and seeking offense where there is none. Nor am I Evangelical for the record.

    Are you suggesting the bible is devoid of guidelines for Christian belief? Are you purporting God hasn’t communicated the behaviors He deems appropriate and those which aren’t? Are we free to live as we choose and rely on our reason to guide our faith?

    I think you’re conflating tolerance with acceptance. I am conversant in Native American teachings. My former companion walked the Medicine Path and I implemented some of its practices in my walk when I traveled a different road.

    If your interpretation of open-mindedness entails unkind remarks, baseless allegations, and a necessity of validation of your feelings from others I suspect we view the concept differently.

    I needn’t have your agreement. I don’t require you to support my perspective. Nor am I offended if you feel differently. That’s your choice.
     
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  10. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Trust me, I'm very much not.

    So have I -- Benedictine while I was still Roman Catholic (Mt. Angel Abbey on the Oregon coast; highly recommended if you're in the area), and since then Coptic Orthodox (the Monastery of St. Shenouda the Archimandrite in Rochester, NY; ditto).

    Maybe for you, but in the Coptic Orthodox Church -- the Church of Egypt, which gave the Christian world monasticism -- they very much do.

    If you have been to a monastery, particularly an Eastern monastery (but may be also a Western...Mt. Angel Abbey's bookshop sold books by HH Pope Shenouda III and some Byzantine icons when I was there, but I don't know if they were also integrated by the monks), then a scene like the one in the video below on Orthodox prayer in the Coptic Orthodox tradition should look familiar to you:



    Yet as the uploader's narration tells you, this is a room in his own house. This is common in Orthodoxy. The Eastern Orthodox call it an "icon corner" and may arrange it differently (or not; I don't know, you'd have to ask them). I don't know if we have a name for it, but this is a very standard setup akin to what I have seen in every Coptic home I've ever visited, most of which are practically littered with Agpeyas (our Book of the Hours), so that they can pray it daily, seven times a day as is set forth or however many they can do (there are also shorter 'travel Agpeyas' meant for busy students and whatnot who might only be able to pray 2 or 3 hours throughout the day). It is such a common practice in the Coptic Orthodox Church in particular that I owned two Agpeyas (one standard and one shorter) before I ever even got to go to a liturgy, since that's literally the first thing any Coptic person will give you if you tell them you are thinking about investigating the Church. This practice, which is rooted in monasticism (the Agpeya as we have it now grew out of the monastic practices in the 4th-5th century), is absolutely integral to our spiritual lives. HH Pope Shenouda once put it that the Coptic household and life should be arranged such that our motto is "Every household a monastery and every believer a monk." (cf. the more commonly-known Eastern Orthodox saying that "the home is the little Church")

    Okay.

    You could always invite others to pray it with you, if you wanted to. We pray it together in the Church as part of the Morning Raising of Incense (Matins) and Vespers prayers, and I know Coptic people pray it in their homes together with other people sometimes (I don't know how common it is, but it does happen). One of my friends from Church -- an Egyptian guy -- even kept an English-language Agpeya in his house so that if any Americans or other non-Arabphones visited and wanted to pray together, they could each pray from it in their own language and understand it (this is common in the Church; I still don't know the entire Lord's prayer in Arabic, for instance, as I don't really think it's my job to learn a foreign language to pray, and nobody else does either, so I just pray it in English alongside people praying it in Arabic, Amharic, Armenian, Malayalam, whatever).

    Well, okay. That's what you've experienced, and I'm not trying to discount it in any way, only to say that it is not true that all churches maintain this strict division between the monastic way and the everyday way. The difference is certainly still one of scale (I definitely prayed more, and for much longer, when I was in the monastery of St. Shenouda the Archimandrite than I do at home, shamefully), but I do not believe it is one of intention at all. Intention can and should be cultivated. Again, "Every home a monastery, and every believer a monk." :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019 at 10:05 PM
  11. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla Well-Known Member

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    I suspect you misunderstood my response. Perhaps you should read it again. I’m not defending the practices at all. I explained the root and purposes behind them. :)

    C.S. Lewis spoke against the same in the work I cited. Nor did I argue that desert practices should be emulated.
     
  12. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    No I do not. I attended public school myself, but I understand that it has evolved into quite a different animal than it was back in the 1990s-early 2000s (I graduated high school in 2000 or 2001; I honestly can't remember as I've never bothered with reunions and didn't keep my diploma), when I was last in it, so I don't doubt there are more challenges involved in it today than there were back then, when all of the cultural stuff that we are now seeing in full bloom was just being planted. :(
     
  13. LaBèlla

    LaBèlla Well-Known Member

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    I went to a Trappistine monastery.

    The audience we’re addressing aren’t Copts. Nor have their parents subscribed to its teachings. You are glimpsing this from your perspective and that’s understandable.

    But the likelihood the information was presented from a Coptic vantage point is slim at best. In your world it means one thing but that may not mirror the wider application. That’s the crux of the issue.
     
  14. lsume

    lsume Active Member Supporter

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    Interesting use of the word picayune. The major NOLA newspaper was the Times Picayune. There were also as I recall in the early 70’s a cigarette brand sold in NOLA named Picayunes. Like smoking lead is how I think it was described to me. As to the subject, I need to research the topic. I have never to my knowledge heard of this issue. However, the way it really works, God will not lose any of His children. All of His elect will be saved. Everyone that fits the description must be refined.

    Mal.3 Verses 1 to 3


    1. [1] Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
      [2] But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
      [3] And he shall sit as a refiner and purifer of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
    What I can say is that when Christ came to me as a thief in the night, I was not ready in my mind. There is a story about a ladies Bible study where the group had been studying The Word Above. They decided to visit a silver making establishment. There was a man working the silver in a furnace. One of the ladies ask him how he knew when the silver was ready to come out of the furnace and he replied “when I can see my own reflection”. That story I read over 20 years ago as I recall. Being refined is not a whole lot of fun but absolutely necessary.
     
  15. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    I suppose one could call me "liberal".

    I don't think the "mind of Christ" means rigid adherence to religious ideology, or reading the Bible uncritically.
     
  16. Deborah D

    Deborah D Prayer Warrior Supporter

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    Thanks for answering my question and for your gentler tone. :)

    IMO, there are a couple of things you need to keep in mind in a debate about education. First, we're not just talking about children. We're talking about children who belong to parents who invest in them and want what's best for them. (At least, most parents do.) So, it's very different when you're talking about other people's children as opposed to your own.

    Also, those of us born in the '50s or before (i.e. Baby Boomers) remember what public education was like before God was kicked out of the schools as a result of a series of unconstitutional Supreme Court decisions in the '70s. When I was in elementary school, we started every day with a prayer over the PA read by the principal. (Yes, PA systems actually existed way back then! LOL)

    So, when you talk about big changes from the early 2000's, Baby Boomers are looking at much bigger changes from the time we attended school in the '60s. This represents quite a different perspective, and one that those younger than us Baby Boomers can learn from if you have a mind to listen and learn.

    I don't mean to sound snooty about this, so please don't misread my tone. I remember what it was like to be young. It seems like yesterday in a way!
     
  17. Deborah D

    Deborah D Prayer Warrior Supporter

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    Well, my view of this is based on what Jesus said in John 16:13--"When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears. He will also declare to you what is to come."

    It's not up to us to decide what the Bible says, whether critically or uncritically. I read and meditate on scripture with the above truth in mind, trusting the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019 at 1:15 PM
  18. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    First off, unless your view of God is heretical, God cannot be kicked out of public schools because God is omnipresent.

    Second, the Supreme Court is the highest court in the US. It decides what is, and isn't constitutional. The Constitutional is clear in prohibiting establishment of any religion, and devotional Bible reading is clearly a central aspect of Evangelical Christianity, therefore it has no place in a public school lesson. If you have a problem with this, it is you who are un-American, not those of us who believe in religious freedom for all Americans.
     
  19. Deborah D

    Deborah D Prayer Warrior Supporter

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    The idea of God being kicked out of school is metaphorical, not literal. I was a public school English teacher, so I guess using metaphor is an occupational hazard. :(

    I also taught Early American history and studied the Constitution for my job. The Supreme Court is made up of fallible human beings. Sometimes they get things wrong, very wrong!

    As far as Bible reading in the schools being unconstitutional, you need to study the history of public education in America. I have done so and have written extensively about this. It's strange that it was considered constitutional for more than 200 years! ;)
    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019 at 1:28 PM
  20. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    How long ago were you a teacher that there was "bible teaching" in public schools?

    We were still saying the Lord's Prayer when I started school--and there still wasn't any "Bible teaching" beyond that rote, pro forma two minutes back then.
     
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