Conservatism in the church, and women's roles

kdm1984

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I don't spend as much time on Internet forums as much as I used to, and I expect to even less after my 36th birthday on November 9 -- but I wanted this to be my last substantive thread before I seek to largely retire from such discussions, and before husband and I plan on having a child next year.

Ok. So conservatism in the church, and women's roles, is probably one of the most difficult topics to address. Men's opinions actually vary quite widely, and so it's not always liberal feminism that brings in confusion -- men themselves are not monolithic in their views when it comes to this topic, and this is where things get confusing.

For example, let's take my dad. He loves Trump, he considers himself conservative, but he's not into the controlling, moralistic version of conservatism. When conservative men want dress codes for women and complain about Super Bowl halftime shows, he thinks such things are silly -- he says this is what people thought about Elvis in the 1950s, and he thinks they were wrong then, too. He absolutely does not have an ideal that we should return to 1950s June Cleaver womanhood; he never has considered such things important, and so when I ask him about such things, he always says, "You need to avoid extremist cults."

My dad has also never been a churchgoing, theological hair-splitting kind of guy. He believes one should read the Bible, pray to God, have conversations with God, and come to their own conclusions. Again, he's not big on morality; when I asked him once why he doesn't moralize the way other conservative men do (talking about women's roles, abortion, etc.), he said, "I don't know. I guess it's not in me." Despite admiring Billy Graham, he'd never heard of the Billy Graham rule. He had nothing stern to teach about sexual immorality; he doesn't think premarital sex is a sin. When a conservative friend of mine once went on about remarriage after divorce being a perpetual sin, my dad said, "That's just someone being self-righteous. Avoid the cults."

As far as women's roles, I just never heard much about that growing up. I never heard about dress codes. My parents I think were broadly against women being pastors, but they didn't get very doctrinal about it. My dad said, "Women pastors just tend to be weird." I later did my own Bible study, and agreed women shouldn't be pastors -- indeed, I've posted about that a few times here, and to Reddit -- but I don't necessarily think women cannot do many other things in the civic sphere, and that's where many other kinds of conservatives have disagreement.

Like right now here in the USA, we have Amy Coney Barrett. She's Catholic, not Protestant, and she has a high authoritative rank, so she's more than just a mother. I've seen varying degrees of conservative support for her. Some admire her, but others would say, she should stay at home, not have judicial authority, etc. Others might contend, well, she's not Protestant, so she's not a real Christian (I was always taught that some individual Catholics are saved, despite their excessive works emphasis and veneration of Mary, even if Catholicism as a whole misses the mark a lot more often that Protestantism).

Another thing that got me in trouble with male authorities is that I married an unbeliever. Actually my dad got in a lot more trouble than I did, for he allowed it and thought it was fine. He and I had disagreements with other Christians over how 1 Cor 7 should be interpreted. The most conservative people believe Paul only allowed it for that time because the women were already married to unbelieving men at the time, and that he didn't intend for it to be a principle for later Christians to follow. My dad and I don't qualify it to that extent -- we take Paul at his word -- so we had no issues with my marriage. But my dad did get a lot of conservative men trying to fight his authority on this for a number of years, and he had to remind them that he was MY father, that these other men had no authority over me. I've since been with my unbelieving spouse now for a number of years, and our marriage is a happy one. I contrast this with many other conservative men who frequently post to these and other forums with complaints about how their women deny them sex and other silliness. Some of these men and women would think they're much more knowledgeable or moralistic than my father and I about marriage, but their marriages are lousy, so who are they to think they have more authority on this subject than my father and I, or think they have more insight into what Paul said than my father and I do?

Suffice to say, my family and I -- despite being fairly conservative -- don't always fit neatly into what conservative churches and people expect when it comes to the specifics of the faith, especially gender roles. While we may agree that women shouldn't be pastors, we don't buy into most of the other views, doctrines, and stereotypes that conservatives have about this broad subject. And this has continued to amaze me well into my thirties now.
 

Albion

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Who ARE these backwoodsmen that you persist in calling "conservative?" That is so unfair to conservatives and conservatism, much as it would be if Communists and ISIS terrorists were constantly referred to as "liberals."

Sorry for the lecture, but this kind of thing gets posted here a lot, although usually not by people as intellectually sharp as I know you to be.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Who ARE these backwoodsmen that you persist in calling "conservative?" That is so unfair to conservatives and conservatism, much as it would be if Communists and ISIS terrorists were constantly referred to as "liberals."

Since ISIS is a pretty conservative group, like, that's kind of how super conservative fundamentalism works, it wouldn't make much sense to call them liberals.

That said, I can't seem to even turn around without seeing anyone with a marginally liberal disposition accused of being a communist, so like--that seems like a strange point. Because that happens, consistently. Anyone who has even marginally on the left of the right, including other conservatives who aren't as conservative as some, get called "Communist" or some variation thereof.

It's hardly a what-if scenario. That's what happens. On this very forum. All the time.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Albion

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Since ISIS is a pretty conservative group, like, that's kind of how super conservative fundamentalism works, it wouldn't make much sense to call them liberals.
First, ISIS is not a conservative group or even a pretty conservative group or "super conservative" group, whatever that might mean. Fundamentalist or neo-Fascist, maybe, but not conservative.

That said, I can't seem to even turn around without seeing anyone with a marginally liberal disposition accused of being a communist, so like--that seems like a strange point.
You may not have caught it, but I was agreeing that to speak of such outfits as liberal would be just as wrong as misapplying the word conservative to others.
 
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kdm1984

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Who ARE these backwoodsmen that you persist in calling "conservative?" That is so unfair to conservatives and conservatism, much as it would be if Communists and ISIS terrorists were constantly referred to as "liberals."

Sorry for the lecture, but this kind of thing gets posted here a lot, although usually not by people as intellectually sharp as I know you to be.

Thanks. I also got a similar reply from a moderately conservative Baptist on another forum, whose opinions I tend to agree with and respect.

Basically, the ones my dad and I disagree with, more often than not are hyperconservative Calvinists, Pentecostals, etc. who get really into the patriarchal thing. Think John Piper, Doug Phillips, Doug Wilson, etc. They go well beyond "women cannot be pastors" and think women shouldn't lead in civil spheres, work, etc. Women should stay at home only per them.
 
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Albion

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kdm1984,

Yes, the fact is that the terms conservative and liberal have accepted meanings; and when we move further out on the political spectrum, towards either the left or right, it's unfair to the actual conservatives and liberals and to their belief systems to stretch these terms out to include extremists whose values and, often, their actions are anything but what conservatism and liberalism stand for.

By the way, if you are leaving us (for quite understandable reasons, I know), we will be the worse off for it. My Best Wishes to you on the plans you described to us.
 
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ViaCrucis

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First, ISIS is not a conservative group or even a pretty conservative group or "super conservative" group, whatever that might mean. Fundamentalist or neo-Fascist, maybe, but not conservative.

The goal of ISIS is to re-create an Islamic caliphate, I don't know how it could get more conservative than that. "Conservative" isn't restricted to the religious and political landscape of the United States or other western nations. But right-wing Islamic fundamentalist conservatism is very much conservative. There's no way around it, not unless one is going to radically redefine what words like "conservative" mean.

I agree that ISIS is fascist, which, again plays into the conservative side. Fascism is, by nature, a conservative thing. That does not make conservatives fascist, in the same way that Socialism is a liberal thing, but that doesn't make liberals socialist. We are talking about degrees on the right-left axis. Between liberalism and conservatism as broad concepts, with each axis having its extreme manifestations.

ISIS is an extreme, reactionary, Islamic conservative group that wants to conserve what they believe is the right Muslim way of life, and wish to hearken back to the past of an Islamic Caliphate that rules the Islamic world. By calling it conservative I'm not comparing it to all conservatives, nor am I equivocating American conservatism with ISIS--only pointing out that ISIS is, by what it is, a reactionary conservative group.

That isn't an attack on conservatism as an ideological or political principle. That's simply describing what kind of group ISIS is.

By the same token eco-terrorist groups such as the ALF are liberal, they are a liberal terrorist group. Admitting that does not impugn liberalism as a broad ideological or political principle; it simply is recognizing that this group is a radical, liberal group. An example of extremism on the liberal side of the left-right axis.

Extremism and violence occurs on both sides of the axis. Violent radicals and violent reactionaries are both real, not imaginary.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Albion

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The goal of ISIS is to re-create an Islamic caliphate, I don't know how it could get more conservative than that.

Well "conservatism" in a political sense--that's the one we're referring to here--has an established meaning, just as socialism and other ones do.

It may not, in fact, be applicable to Middle Eastern terrorists at all. But in any case, it--along with its opposite number, liberalism--ought to be used correctly for the sake of the people who actually are conservatives and liberals.
 
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bèlla

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I was raised in a conservative environment and my extended family falls in the same group. But we weren't religious or Protestant. We were Christian and ethical. But we didn't impose our beliefs on others. We sought company with like-minded people.

My background played an important part in my tolerance. I don't have to agree or like anyone's behavior. I'm not their conscience or the Holy Spirit. I have no interest in doing that. I have my own ideas on women's roles. I walk within that ideal. But I wouldn't discount someone's work or contribution who fell outside those lines.

I love reading @Paidiske's feedback. She has a heart for God and that's obvious. I'll tag her in a heartbeat if I think her contribution would benefit the OP. I do the same with @bekkilyn, @Brightmoon, and @Endeavourer. I don't have to agree with everything they say. I look at the fruit and listen to their spirit. Are we testifying to the same One? Do I see His fingerprints on them? Absolutely! That's enough for me.

We can become rigidly attached to perspectives that alienate us from other believers. I think that's errant. On a practical level, we can't dismiss the impact formative years and experiences have on our mindsets later on. When you understand a person's backstory you'll see them in a different light. It helps you extend grace and compassion when you disagree.

At the end of the day, we're one in Christ. We fail to behave as siblings frequently. But we can't allow our differences to hinder the love we're called to have for one another. I don't have to agree with you to love you. That comes from God.

The journey is hard enough on its own without throwing landmines in someone's path. I don't split hairs over religion. It isn't edifying or profitable for the Kingdom. There's an ego issue in all of this. The need to be right drives these arguments. As does the want for validation.

Difference doesn't obliterate the union. So why make it a factor? I won't. :)

Yours in His Service,

~Bella
 
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Brightmoon

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I was raised by reactionary conservative father as far as women’s roles are concerned . I wasn’t even allowed to learn to use tools . I used to tease my youngest sister to remind my father that we didn’t belong to the Taliban . That over controlling upbringing was extremely damaging. I was a teen during the woman’s lib movement. That was liberating which is why I’m a flaming liberal when it comes to women’s rights . My mainstream church also had a female archbishop which was not her exact title but it will do . What a role model! . At that point all bets were off .

when I hear conservatives I think of Tevye from Fiddler on the Roof singing Tradition . Some traditions are just bad . Liberals will discard them , no questions asked ! Conservatives to me just seem fearful of positive change
 
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bekkilyn

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I feel like Bella just rang my doorbell! :)

I rant a lot here on CF and go into depth on various things during discussions, but in actual practice when it comes to women's roles (and men's roles for that matter), I tend to keep it simple. The role of a particular individual is whatever God intends for that individual and calls that individual to do. Male or female doesn't even come into play unless a baby is to be produced.

God may intend one woman to be a housewife, another to be a judge, another to be a mother, and another to even be a pastor. Same for men (except for father instead of mother LOL)

He gives us all unique gifts and expects us to use them rather than burying our talents (money) in the dirt. When you have a calling from God, whatever it may be, you KNOW. (Or you will know eventually because it will not go away no matter how stubborn you are or how much you try to avoid listening. :) )

Most people I know in real life, both liberal and conservative, are pretty pragmatic about the whole thing and want the best for their children regardless of whether male or female.

God is more about giving us the freedom to be who he made us to be, even if it doesn't meet with the approval of other human beings. Remember that David wasn't even invited to the banquet where the new king was to be anointed...wasn't considered important enough, being the youngest...but God had other plans.

I'd advise not to even be concerned about "roles" and instead be concerned about being exactly the person God created you to be, regardless of whether or not it is considered appropriate by human standards.
 
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Albion

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I was raised by reactionary conservative father as far as women’s roles are concerned . I wasn’t even allowed to learn to use tools . I used to tease my youngest sister to remind my father that we didn’t belong to the Taliban . That over controlling upbringing was extremely damaging. I was a teen during the woman’s lib movement. That was liberating which is why I’m a flaming liberal when it comes to women’s rights . My mainstream church also had a female archbishop which was not her exact title but it will do . What a role model! . At that point all bets were off .

when I hear conservatives I think of Tevye from Fiddler on the Roof singing Tradition . Some traditions are just bad . Liberals will discard them , no questions asked ! Conservatives to me just seem fearful of positive change

Apparently, "conservatism" is the whipping boy of preference, no matter what the particular issue might be. But here's something to think about...

When someone dares to criticize socialism, the howls of protest are long and loud. Unless every jot and tittle of a definition is agreed upon, the response is going to be "No, that's not socialism! You are misrepresenting socialism."

But conservatism? Oh, anything, everything, and anybody whom the speaker finds disagreeble, well...that's conservative.

:destroyed:
 
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NerdGirl

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I don't spend as much time on Internet forums as much as I used to, and I expect to even less after my 36th birthday on November 9 -- but I wanted this to be my last substantive thread before I seek to largely retire from such discussions, and before husband and I plan on having a child next year.

Ok. So conservatism in the church, and women's roles, is probably one of the most difficult topics to address. Men's opinions actually vary quite widely, and so it's not always liberal feminism that brings in confusion -- men themselves are not monolithic in their views when it comes to this topic, and this is where things get confusing.

For example, let's take my dad. He loves Trump, he considers himself conservative, but he's not into the controlling, moralistic version of conservatism. When conservative men want dress codes for women and complain about Super Bowl halftime shows, he thinks such things are silly -- he says this is what people thought about Elvis in the 1950s, and he thinks they were wrong then, too. He absolutely does not have an ideal that we should return to 1950s June Cleaver womanhood; he never has considered such things important, and so when I ask him about such things, he always says, "You need to avoid extremist cults."

My dad has also never been a churchgoing, theological hair-splitting kind of guy. He believes one should read the Bible, pray to God, have conversations with God, and come to their own conclusions. Again, he's not big on morality; when I asked him once why he doesn't moralize the way other conservative men do (talking about women's roles, abortion, etc.), he said, "I don't know. I guess it's not in me." Despite admiring Billy Graham, he'd never heard of the Billy Graham rule. He had nothing stern to teach about sexual immorality; he doesn't think premarital sex is a sin. When a conservative friend of mine once went on about remarriage after divorce being a perpetual sin, my dad said, "That's just someone being self-righteous. Avoid the cults."

As far as women's roles, I just never heard much about that growing up. I never heard about dress codes. My parents I think were broadly against women being pastors, but they didn't get very doctrinal about it. My dad said, "Women pastors just tend to be weird." I later did my own Bible study, and agreed women shouldn't be pastors -- indeed, I've posted about that a few times here, and to Reddit -- but I don't necessarily think women cannot do many other things in the civic sphere, and that's where many other kinds of conservatives have disagreement.

Like right now here in the USA, we have Amy Coney Barrett. She's Catholic, not Protestant, and she has a high authoritative rank, so she's more than just a mother. I've seen varying degrees of conservative support for her. Some admire her, but others would say, she should stay at home, not have judicial authority, etc. Others might contend, well, she's not Protestant, so she's not a real Christian (I was always taught that some individual Catholics are saved, despite their excessive works emphasis and veneration of Mary, even if Catholicism as a whole misses the mark a lot more often that Protestantism).

Another thing that got me in trouble with male authorities is that I married an unbeliever. Actually my dad got in a lot more trouble than I did, for he allowed it and thought it was fine. He and I had disagreements with other Christians over how 1 Cor 7 should be interpreted. The most conservative people believe Paul only allowed it for that time because the women were already married to unbelieving men at the time, and that he didn't intend for it to be a principle for later Christians to follow. My dad and I don't qualify it to that extent -- we take Paul at his word -- so we had no issues with my marriage. But my dad did get a lot of conservative men trying to fight his authority on this for a number of years, and he had to remind them that he was MY father, that these other men had no authority over me. I've since been with my unbelieving spouse now for a number of years, and our marriage is a happy one. I contrast this with many other conservative men who frequently post to these and other forums with complaints about how their women deny them sex and other silliness. Some of these men and women would think they're much more knowledgeable or moralistic than my father and I about marriage, but their marriages are lousy, so who are they to think they have more authority on this subject than my father and I, or think they have more insight into what Paul said than my father and I do?

Suffice to say, my family and I -- despite being fairly conservative -- don't always fit neatly into what conservative churches and people expect when it comes to the specifics of the faith, especially gender roles. While we may agree that women shouldn't be pastors, we don't buy into most of the other views, doctrines, and stereotypes that conservatives have about this broad subject. And this has continued to amaze me well into my thirties now.

I think your dad sounds like a pretty cool guy, and he obviously raised a non-judgemental, free-thinking daughter. You both have my admiration for that.

The only point where I wouldn't agree is that he believed pre-marital sex isn't a sin.

"Women pastors just tend to be weird" - LOL! I agree, dad! I agree.

I very much like the way your dad seems to have approached his own spiritual walk. Avoid extremists, avoid cults, follow your own path with God. Browbeating people with self-righteous condescension never ends well.
 
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justtrance

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Browbeating people with self-righteous condescension never ends well.
Agree, I always make the point that God gave free will, who am I to take that away.
 
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NerdGirl

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I feel like Bella just rang my doorbell! :)

I rant a lot here on CF and go into depth on various things during discussions, but in actual practice when it comes to women's roles (and men's roles for that matter), I tend to keep it simple. The role of a particular individual is whatever God intends for that individual and calls that individual to do. Male or female doesn't even come into play unless a baby is to be produced.

God may intend one woman to be a housewife, another to be a judge, another to be a mother, and another to even be a pastor. Same for men (except for father instead of mother LOL)

He gives us all unique gifts and expects us to use them rather than burying our talents (money) in the dirt. When you have a calling from God, whatever it may be, you KNOW. (Or you will know eventually because it will not go away no matter how stubborn you are or how much you try to avoid listening. :) )

Most people I know in real life, both liberal and conservative, are pretty pragmatic about the whole thing and want the best for their children regardless of whether male or female.

God is more about giving us the freedom to be who he made us to be, even if it doesn't meet with the approval of other human beings. Remember that David wasn't even invited to the banquet where the new king was to be anointed...wasn't considered important enough, being the youngest...but God had other plans.

I'd advise not to even be concerned about "roles" and instead be concerned about being exactly the person God created you to be, regardless of whether or not it is considered appropriate by human standards.

BAM. You killed this one.

That's a compliment, by the way! :ok:
 
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NerdGirl

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By the way, if you are leaving us (for quite understandable reasons, I know), we will be the worse off for it. My Best Wishes to you on the plans you described to us.

I am also sort of hoping she'll stay and maybe just isn't telling us... :p
 
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Brightmoon

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Apparently, "conservatism" is the whipping boy of preference, no matter what the particular issue might be. But here's something to think about...

When someone dares to criticize socialism, the howls of protest are long and loud. Unless every jot and tittle of a definition is agreed upon, the response is going to be "No, that's not socialism! You are misrepresenting socialism."

But conservatism? Oh, anything, everything, and anybody whom the speaker finds disagreeble, well...that's conservative.

:destroyed:
women being second class people is the traditional conservative role . It’s damaging if you want to do something that aligns with your real talents and you’re prevented or thwarted for stupid superficial reasons that have nothing to do with those talents. If conservative behavior is a whipping boy it’s because for too often it’s used as an excuse for blighting people’s lives by people who are in control.

the environmental movement was a liberal movement. The conservatives didn’t want to clean up the air or the water . I remember that river bursting into flame because of the pollution
The civil rights movements are liberal movements. Conservatives wanted minorities to wait and wait and wait until Johnson realized minorities were tired of waiting for fair treatment and were prevented from even asking for it by unfair voting practices .
 
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kdm1984

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women being second class people is the traditional conservative role . It’s damaging if you want to do something that aligns with your real talents and you’re prevented or thwarted for stupid superficial reasons that have nothing to do with those talents. If conservative behavior is a whipping boy it’s because for too often it’s used as an excuse for blighting people’s lives by people who are in control.

the environmental movement was a liberal movement. The conservatives didn’t want to clean up the air or the water . I remember that river bursting into flame because of the pollution
The civil rights movements are liberal movements. Conservatives wanted minorities to wait and wait and wait until Johnson realized minorities were tired of waiting for fair treatment and were prevented from even asking for it by unfair voting practices .

I think it depends on how far along someone is on the spectrum of conservative/liberal.

After discussing these kinds of things with many Christians on many Internet forums now, I see that the kinds of people I was exposed to online -- the ones into Vision Forum, ATI, etc. -- are considered a more cultic, or at the very least a more hyper-conservative form of Christianity. It sounds like you were raised in a similar climate, sadly.

Yet, most moderate conservatives today are fine with first wave feminism (if not second wave), and are probably more like my dad. For all the frustration I've often experienced online, I'm still glad I've been able to have enough of these discussions to see that there are different degrees of conservatism/liberalism, and how people interpret Scripture, doctrine, etc. Without this kind of knowledge or exposure, I'd have even more difficulty trying to figure out what to think about these things, and I might either be in one of those more rigid groups, or think I need to be in one, like yours was. (In fact, sometimes I still find myself fretting over such matters.) We all eventually have to contend with these things and figure out where it is we stand.

And of course, nowadays, regrettably, in the hyper partisan sociopolitical climate we're in, it's all too easy to look at people as extremes -- even when they aren't. That's why harsh labels like communist, Nazi, etc. get thrown around, even if someone is only moderately liberal or conservative.
 
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