Confusion about what Jesus Said

Clare73

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We can do nothing to have brought the Kingdom into being, yes. But we have plenty change to make in rejecting the self interest of mankind for the will of God that loves all as self.
Not orthodox Christianity.
 
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Soyeong

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Straw man. . .

All who rely on observong the law are under a curse (Galatians 3:10).

How is that a straw man? You are trying to use Galatians 3:10 as justification for refusing to rely on God's law because you think that God will curse us if we do that. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to rely on the Mosaic Law is to rely on the Lawgiver, while denying that we can rely on Mosaic Law is denying that we can rely on the Lawgiver. The reality is that Galatians 3:10 is speaking against relying on works of the law, not against relying on the Mosaic Law.

God temporarily added the Mosaic Covenant to the Abrahamic Covenant (Galatians 3:19; Romans 5:20), and God can subtract the Mosaic Covenant from the Abrahamic Covenant.

Jesus was born under the law (Galatians 4:4), so he was obligated to obey it, and he was sinless, so he never broke it, including Deuteronomy 4:2.

The way to testify about God's righteousness is based on God's righteousness, not on any particular covenant, and God's righteousness is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to testify about His righteousness are eternally valid no matter how many covenants God makes. Sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became righteous or sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do that. For example, it was sin to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9, long before the Mosaic Covenant, during it, and it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any number of covenants being added or becoming obsolete that changes the way to testify about or against God's eternal righteousness.

Not according to God's New Covenant revelation that those laws and regulations have been abolished on the cross (Ephesians 2:15).

On what authority does one override God's NT revelation?

God's word should not be interpreted as speaking against God's word, so there is no need to override God's NT revelation, just your mishandling of it. Ephesians 2:15 is referring to a law that is a dividing wall of hostility, however, God did not give His law for that purpose, so Ephesians 2:15 is not referring to God's law. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to end any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness. However, the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so even if it were true that Ephesians 2:15 were speaking against God's word, then you should be quicker to disregard everything that Paul said than to disregard any part of God's word.
 
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Soyeong

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You said it was absurd that a curse is attached to the Law.

That was not the issue.

If you understand that the curse is only for those who refuse to rely on God's law, then you should argue in favor of obeying God's law.
 
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Ligurian

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That is one interpretation. There are some heavier commandments to consider.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Since we are not under the law, I reject the commandments taken from the law.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these words of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these words of Mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak. 1 Peter 4:17

John 17:6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the Gospel is preached unto you. Isaiah 40:3 John 1:23

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the Kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the Testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 3:10

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. Matthew 16:18 Matthew 7:13-14
 
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Ligurian

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Does this mean we should sin by no means, BUT we should be preaching this off the roof tops and letting Jesus Christ transform people with his word.

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put My words in His mouth; and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him. 19 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto My words which He shall speak in My name, I will require [it] of him.

John 12:44-47 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. John 12:48-50 His commandment is Life Everlasting

1 Peter 4:17-18 the Gospel of God
 
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Ligurian

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It is all about one's motive.
Do you keep Jesus's commands because you love him!
Or
Do you keep the ten commandments because you are trying to earn your salvation?

Which is it for you?

Matthew 19:17 Is "entering into life" really good enough? Matthew 5:19-20
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow Me.

In other words, Jesus says all of these things: Continue with Me, Abide with Me, Eat My words and drink My life, accept My authority... this is what Jesus commands, because it's what the Father commands: Be faithful unto death. Revelation 2:8-10
 
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Clare73

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Does it matter when when there is no in-between?
Uh. . .when to live is Christ it does.

Do you not understand that part?

This is not orthodox Christianity.
 
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Clare73

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If the curse is only for those who refuse to rely on God's law, then you should argue in favor of obeying God's law.
So "all those who rely on observing the law are under a curse" (Galatians 3:10) refers
to all those who refuse to rely on observing God's law?

That is indeed a straw man. . .
 
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zoidar

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I have always been confused about The Doctrine of Salvation based on what Jesus said. My logical mind can not comprehend it.

Jesus effectively said that if you Love Him you shall obey his commandments, Yet, His commandments are the ten commandments.

The first five applying to God and the second five applying to man: to Love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Does The Bible Negate this by stating that if you attempt to follow the ten commandments you shall fall under a curse, and that Jesus shall only ever give those The Holy Spirit who follow His commandments?

It literally makes no sense to me, it never really has been able to make sense to me.

I'll give it a shot to answer this.

Firstly in the sermon on the mount Jesus is telling us what the ten commandments really mean. The Pharisees had made it all into religion, setting their own made up rules how to keep the commandments. It was all about the outside to them, doing things they thought would make them righteous to God. They didn't care about the inside.

Jesus points out that it's not the outside that counts, like ceremonial washing before a meal, but the heart, and the intent of the heart. So Jesus says if we want to be righteous, we need to be righteous at heart level, to have a sincere care for our neighbour in need, to forgive, be honest etc.

We are to follow Jesus' commands, even non of us can live by them perfectly, we are to strive towards keeping them all. Non of this is possible without having been born again, been given a new heart by the Holy Spirit.

If we are saved we are to follow Jesus as our Lord. It's not enough to say that we believe but don't do what Jesus says we are to do. The other side of the coin is that we don't always do what we should do or we do things we should not do. That's what sin is. So we go to Jesus with our sins, asking him for forgiveness, trusting in his forgiveness through the cross. No matter how terrible we fail to follow Jesus, there is always forgiveness for us, as we turn around, confess and keep walking with Jesus as our Lord.

The problem is when we say that the commands of Jesus is only to show us we are sinners. Then we forget the importance of living by them. That we don't do everything perfectly, is no excuse for not living after Jesus' words. The thing that matters most is our heart, and our heart is formed by our relationship with Jesus. If we have no obedience we can hardly call Jesus our Lord. And we can not have obedience unless we are born again.
 
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Soyeong

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So "all those who rely on observing the law are under a curse" (Galatians 3:10) refers
to all those who refuse to rely on observing God's law?

That is indeed a straw man. . .

They are relying on works of the law instead of relying on the Book of the Law, which is why they are under a curse. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Leviticus 18:5 with a quote from Habakkuk 2:4, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to God's law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith in God, unlike God's law. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law, so it is of faith.
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
So "all those who rely on observing the law are under a curse" (Galatians 3:10) refers to all those who refuse to rely on observing God's law?
They are relying on works of the law instead of relying on the Book of the Law, which is why they are under a curse. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Leviticus 18:5 with a quote from Habakkuk 2:4, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to God's law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith in God, unlike God's law. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law, so it is of faith.
Oh, wow!. . .that's some seriously contorted "logic" to make your Old Covenant theology agree with New Covenant theology.

So relying on "works of the law" in obedience to God is not sufficient to justify,
but relying on the "book of the law" is sufficient to justify.
So how do you rely on the "book of the law" without obedience to it?

And then, how can it be that relying on obedience to the "book of the law" is sufficient to justify,
while relying on "works of the law" in obedience to God is not sufficient to justfy?

Go figure. . .
 
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Soyeong

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Oh, wow!. . .that's some seriously contorted "logic" to make your Old Covenant theology agree with New Covenant theology.

So relying on "works of the law" in obedience to God is not sufficient to justify,
but relying on the "book of the law" is sufficient to justify.
So how do you rely on the "book of the law" without obedience to it?

And then, how can it be that relying on obedience to the "book of the law" is sufficient to justify,
while relying on "works of the law" in obedience to God is not sufficient to justfy?

Go figure. . .

Why do you think Paul associated a quote from Leviticus 18:5 with a quote from Habakkuk 2:4? Your problem is with Paul's logic, not with mine. God did command the Book of the Law, so relying on that is relying on God, but God didn't command works of the law, so relying on them instead of relying on the Book of the Law is why people are under a curse for not doing the things in the Book of the Law. Relying on the Book of the Law involves our obedience to it.
 
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Reluctant Theologian

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I have always been confused about The Doctrine of Salvation based on what Jesus said. My logical mind can not comprehend it.

Jesus effectively said that if you Love Him you shall obey his commandments, Yet, His commandments are the ten commandments.

The first five applying to God and the second five applying to man: to Love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Does The Bible Negate this by stating that if you attempt to follow the ten commandments you shall fall under a curse, and that Jesus shall only ever give those The Holy Spirit who follow His commandments?

It literally makes no sense to me, it never really has been able to make sense to me.

First of all, Jesus was a Jew send to the House of Israel, teaching his audience to keep the full Law of Moses (= not just the Ten Words) (Matthew 5:17-20). And keep in mind that the early Jewish believers in Jesus as the Messiah zealously kept the Law as well (again, the full law, not just the Ten Words/Commandments); read e.g.:

Acts 21:20
And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, ...​

Now the Gentile believers were not held to keep the full Mosaic Law, but only the four rules as decided during the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). Those rules were a very small sub-set of the Mosaic Law, and did not even contain a requirement to keep the Sabbath (=Saturday as day of rest).

Generally it is understood that also the summary of Mosaic Law (~the Greatest commandments) would apply to Gentile believers as it concerns our attitude and general behaviour; Jesus deals with that in Matthew 22:35-40 based on:

Deuteronomy 6:4-5
You shall love YHWH your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.​

Leviticus 19:18
You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am YHWH.​

Applying that in our lives as Gentiles causes us to please God in all we do; without keeping all of the Law of Moses.

One is free to do so of course; generally e.g. it's probably wise to have a resting day every week.

But strictly speaking Sunday (1st day) observance is not Sabbath (7th day) observance. Don't think you're keeping the Ten Words/Commandments if you're not resting on the Sabbath (= Saturday).

(disclaimer: I am not SDA affiliated :) )
 
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Clare73

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Why do you think Paul associated a quote from Leviticus 18:5 with a quote from Habakkuk 2:4?
Your problem is with Paul's logic, not with mine.
Or with your (mis)understandig of Paul's logic.

Paul is showing that no one is justified by the law because Habakkuk 2:4 states, "The righteous will live by faith," and the law is not based on faith, because Leviticus 18:5 states, "The man who does these things will live," which is works.
He is contrasting justification by faith (Habakkuk 2:4--"live by faith") with justification by works (Leviticus 18:5--"does these things")
God did command the Book of the Law,
What do you mean by "God did command the Book of the Law"?
That makes no sense. Command the Book of the Law for what? To hang in a frame on the wall?
so relying on that is relying on God, but God didn't command works of the law,
So precisely how do you rely on a book?
but God didn't command works of the law
Do you even understand the OT?

What do you think the commands regarding all the sacrificial laws, as well as the laws in Leviticus 11:2, 8, 24, 28, 37, 38, 43, 12:2-3, 13:9, 45, 46, 52-58, 14:8-9, 14-18, 40-45 48-53, 15:5-8, 10-13, 16-18, 21-22, 27 were, if not "works of the law?"
so relying on them instead of relying on the Book of the Law is why people are under a curse for not doing the things in the Book of the Law. Relying on the Book of the Law involves our obedience to it.
This is nonsense!
The works of the law are the book of the law!
 
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To all:

Some Christians today suggest that the Jews or Pharisees kept the Law. This is a lie. They did not keep the Law. Jesus Himself said that they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (See: Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42).
 
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zoidar

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I have heard that if anyone could be saved by keeping the Law it would have to be the Pharisees, since they were super strict with matters of the Law. So if they couldn't be saved by keeping the Law, no one can. Sure they were strict but what they practiced were their own ideas about the Law, but not the Law itself. Jesus wasn't hard on them because they tried to be righteous through the Law, but because they were hypocrites. They wanted to be honoured by men, not God. And therefore they also rejected Christ.

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
— Matthew 23:1-3
 
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I have heard that if anyone could be saved by keeping the Law it would have to be the Pharisees, since they were super strict with matters of the Law. So if they couldn't be saved by keeping the Law, no one can. Sure they were strict but what they practiced were their own ideas about the Law, but not the Law itself. Jesus wasn't hard on them because they tried to be righteous through the Law, but because they were hypocrites. They wanted to be honoured by men, not God. And therefore they also rejected Christ.

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
— Matthew 23:1-3

While it is true that Jesus condemned the Pharisees for being hypocritical, it is not not true that Jesus thought or said that the Pharisees could not keep God's Laws. Jesus condemned them because they omitted the weightier matters of the law like love, faith, justice, and mercy.

“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” (Matthew 23:23).

“But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” (Luke 11:42).

By reading these above two verses, Jesus was condemning them clearly for not having the love of God, not having fair justice or judgment, not having mercy, and not having faith (Which are a part of God's laws). Jesus said the Pharisees omitted the weightier matters of the Law. So if they could not keep the Law, then it would be pointless for Jesus to condemn them. Jesus said the things like faith, mercy, etc. are things that they OUGHT TO HAVE DONE.

Jesus did NOT say, “You poor Pharisees, I know you cannot keep my laws and that you cannot love God and that you cannot have mercy. You cannot help yourselves. I know.” But Jesus did not say that.

Jesus taught that to enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17-19). Jesus also agreed with the lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor (Which are commands) is a part of inheriting eternal life (See: Luke 10:25-37). Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Yes, there are many verses that teach we are saved by God's grace through faith. But that is talking about our initial and foundational salvation. There is also a call of the gospel, too. In 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, we learn that the call of the gospel is... God has chosen us to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. For Hebrews 12:14 says that we are to follow after holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. Then read verse 15 and fear the Lord.
 
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