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Confusion about what Jesus Said

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by Veteran1990, Jul 13, 2021.

  1. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    We get into Heaven? Last memo I got was the new Kingdom comes down to us from Heaven.
     
  2. Lifelong_sinner

    Lifelong_sinner Well-Known Member

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    You’re confusing the current Heaven with the new Heaven. Once we die here, our souls if saved will goto Heaven. But in 2 peter and revelation, God says He will make a new earth and Heaven.
     
  3. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    Love God above all else...with heart, soul, mind and body...and love your neighbor as yourself.
    Apostle Paul explains to us in Romans that living life in the New Way...living to please the Spirit and not to please our sinful nature is how we now live and it is to love and to thereby build on the rock...all the teachings of Christ. Romans 13:9-10:
    9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
     
  4. Veteran1990

    Veteran1990 Member

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    Then explain this:
    King James Bible
    For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    Is God then trying to have us fall under a curse? This is why I had mentioned that it seems The Bible negates the entire context of obedience so my question stands how does anyone make it to Heaven?
     
  5. Lifelong_sinner

    Lifelong_sinner Well-Known Member

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    The purpose of the law is to show that we are sinners. If theres no law against something in particular, how can you be convicted when doing it??
    The law condemns, and if all you do is try to follow the law, that is legalism. Legalism doesnt save. But noone can follow the law perfectly even if you wanted to.
    This is why legalism is a curse. Only by being regenerated can you be saved and have the Holy Spirit take over and help you actually sin less and less. This is where sanctification begins, and it is progressive, and you will follow in sanctification the rest of your life.
     
  6. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    Romans carefully teaches us...
    Firstly know that Christ nailed the LAW to the cross...
    Colossians 2:13-15

    Then what purpose was there to the LAW?...
    See Romans 7:13 (So that sin might be recognized as sin and sin to become utterly sinful.)
    Romans 8:1-3 (The LAW was powerless to save and God sent His Son to fulfill the requirements of the LAW for us.)

    There is too much more to set down in a post...I'd only be re-writing Romans. But see Romans 11:32:
    God bound all men over to disobedience ...by the giving of the OT LAW...so He could have mercy on them all. No one can stand in His sight having achieved to eternal life on his/her own. In other words...that no one may boast before him as I Corinthians 1:28-30 and Ephesians 2:8-10.

    There is now a difference between the OT LAW and Christ's (NT law). Christ's law is to live by the Spirit and not according to the flesh. We in fact uphold even OT LAW in this manner...
    we do not nullify the LAW, but uphold it.
    I am out of time right now but will come back to either this post or to add to any of your comments.

    I will say re-read Romans if not once a few times for ALL the answers ...we are not under LAW...OT LAW which was carried out by works and the letter of the LAW kills. We are under grace and the Spirit...and the Spirit gives life.

    So it is a matter of grace; not works.
     
  7. Veteran1990

    Veteran1990 Member

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    Romans carefully teaches us...
    Firstly know that Christ nailed the LAW to the cross...
    Colossians 2:13-15

    Then what purpose was there to the LAW?...
    See Romans 7:13 (So that sin might be recognized as sin and sin to become utterly sinful.)
    Romans 8:1-3 (The LAW was powerless to save and God sent His Son to fulfill the requirements of the LAW for us.)

    There is too much more to set down in a post...I'd only be re-writing Romans. But see Romans 11:32:
    God bound all men over to disobedience ...by the giving of the OT LAW...so He could have mercy on them all.


    You do realize then that God is The cause of sin, what about the garden of eden.Thr Bible disagrees with this in that the Bible states that God gave man the law to reveal his sin.this would be paradoxically, and difficult to understand in that if God is the cause of sin by causing man to be disobedient by whatever measure,it makes for a poor argument to judge man's sin in any sense

    No one can stand in His sight having achieved to eternal life on his/her own. In other words...that no one may boast before him as I Corinthians 1:28-30 and Ephesians 2:8-10.

    There is now a difference between the OT LAW and Christ's (NT law). Christ's law is to live by the Spirit and not according to the flesh. We in fact uphold even OT LAW in this manner...
    we do not nullify the LAW, but uphold it.
    I am out of time right now but will come back to either this post or to add to any of your comments.

    I will say re-read Romans if not once a few times for ALL the answers ...we are not under LAW...OT LAW which was carried out by works and the letter of the LAW kills. We are under grace and the Spirit...and the Spirit gives life.

    So it is a matter of grace; not works.
     
  8. Lifelong_sinner

    Lifelong_sinner Well-Known Member

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    God is NOT the cause of sin, satan is. God cannot do anything evil, it is against His nature. [Staff Edit]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2021
  9. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The consistent message of the prophets up to and including Jesus was to repent from our sins and to return to obedience to God's law, so it would be absurd for someone to think that they are better off refusing to do that because God will curse them if they do. Rather, the Bible consistently says that there is a blessing for obedience and a curse for disobedience. For example, in Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that we can't obey. Saying that we can't obey God's law is calling God a lair and that God essentially gave the law with the goal of cursing His children, which is expressing an extremely negative view of God, when in reality God's law was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13).

    It is not so much that obedience to anything that God could have commanded proves our love for Him, but that all of the laws that God specifically chose to give were given to teach us what it means to love Him. Christ is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through living in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, so when we express aspects of God's nature through our actions in obedience to His law, we are expressing our love for the nature of who Christ is, we are testifying about his nature, we are believing in him, and we are growing in a relationship with him through gaining experiential knowledge of his nature. The Greatest two commandments are not listed as part of the Ten Commandments, so just right there Jesus taught obedience to more than just ten of God's commandments both by word and by example.

    In Acts 5:32, the Spirit is given to those who obey God, so obedience to God comes first, though the Spirit has also has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it.

    Those verses do not say that the curse of for obeying God's law, but for not obeying it.
     
  10. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    In no measure is Romans stating that God caused sin.
     
  11. Veteran1990

    Veteran1990 Member

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    You are applying a context that is not there, and no, it would not be absurd if and only if that were the intention. You can not sensibly argue that The Bible says God consigned all men to disobedience and insinuate the " the curse " may not be the power of sin and death itself. Much less that God may not have intentionally done that.

    Second no matter how much you tell someone to repent, The Context, in terms of time is that the old testament people who were told that "God" is calling them to repent had no knowledge of Jesus so the prophets and The Law in a historical sense and timeline and those who were only aware of it were the jew's, unless you are insinuating everyone was aware of it throughout the ancient world.

    And second before you jump into a conversation with me, understand that certain Biblical authors do contradict eachother so one Scripture, may not effectively emphasize something that is compatible with another, my whole reason for asking the question, regardless of whether or not you agree with that.

    And also, the law was too difficult to Obey bexause it served no purpouse towards man's salvation.
    If anyone were Capable of Obeying the ten commabdmenrs they would be Christ.
     
  12. Veteran1990

    Veteran1990 Member

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    You just said that God gave them over to disobeidience so that HE could have mercy on them.
     
  13. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Yes the new earth and it's heavens will be the new Kingdom which comes down to us. We ain't getting into His Heaven. (and don't confuse heaven with Heaven)
     
  14. Lifelong_sinner

    Lifelong_sinner Well-Known Member

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    so where do you think we go when we die??
     
  15. timothyu

    timothyu Well-Known Member

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    Where does data go on a hard drive in storage? Whether we die a day before resurrection or thousands of years, it will be the blink of an eye. The unconscious have no sense of time and when our body dies our data has no means of expression until we are given our new form in the new Kingdom.
     
  16. throughfireytrial

    throughfireytrial Truth-Lover Supporter

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    Veteran uses the word caused/God caused sin. By no means, we caused sin. God gives us a rule or mirror to see our sin with the giving of the LAW to lead us to see our sin and humbly seek God through repentance. No one will be saved by observation of the OT Law...only Jesus could keep all its requirements and remain sinless.
    We live rather by faith which is a gift of God. In no way then can any man boast.
    God turned us over to ...our sin...He did not cause sin...the outcome was that our sin turned into complete sin and it bound us.
    Again, God did not CAUSE sin as Veteran said Romans 11:32 means...rather God bound us over to sin (our sin).
     
  17. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Those verses do not say anything about any laws being nailed to the cross. There is a significant difference between these two statements:

    1.) You shall not commit murder.

    2.) This person has been found guilty of murder.

    The first is an example of a law that is for our own good while the second is an example of a handwritten ordinance that was against someone that was nailed to their cross in order to announce why they were being executed. In Matthew 27:37, it says that they put the charge that was against Jesus over his head, so what was nailed to people's crosses was not the laws themselves, but the charge that was against them. This serves as a perfect analogy for the list of our violations of God's law being nailed to Christ's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with ending any of God's laws, especially because they are all eternal (Psalms 119:160). In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to end any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness, so saying that there were any laws nailed to the cross undermines what he accomplished on the cross. The Greek word "dogma" means "edict, ordinance, or decree" and is never used by the Bible to refer to God's law.

    It Romans 7:12-13, Paul said that God's law is good and that it was not good that brought death to him, but rather it was sin that producing death in him through what it is good in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. So you are making the error of assigning that to the purpose of God's law when Paul did not blame God's law for that, but rather it was the purpose of sin working through God's law.

    In Romans 8:1-3, Jesus set us free from sin so that we might be free to obey the law and meet its righteous reequipment. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law, so Paul was not speaking about Jesus fulfilling the requirements of the law for us. That would be like saying that Jesus loved God and his neighbor for us so that we don't have to, but rather he did so in part so that we would have an example to follow, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22).

    In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God and served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, so you should be careful not to mistake what Paul said against the law of sin and apply to what he said about the Law of God.

    There are be reasons for obeying God's law other than trying to earn our justification, especially because God's law was never given as a means of doing that, so verses that speak against that should not be mistaken as speaking against our justification requiring us to choose to obey God's law for some other reason, such as faith. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so only those who have faith will obey it and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul could say in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified while also denying in Romans 4:4-5 that our justification is something that can be earned as a wage. Likewise, Paul said in Romans 3:28 that we are justified by faith apart from works of the law, which is true insofar as there are no works that we can do to earn our salved, however in Romans 3:31, our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, which is true insofar as the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as obedience to it.

    In Ephesians 2:10, we are been made new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation by our obedience such that we could have something to boast about, our salvation nevertheless still involves choosing to do good works. Likewise, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, so while we do not earn eternal life by our obedience, entering into eternal life nevertheless still requires us to choose to obey God's commandments.

    Christ was sinless, which means that he never broke the Mosaic Law, which includes Deuteronomy 4:2, which prohibits adding or subtracting from the Mosaic Law, so the Law of Christ could not be anything other than the Law of Moses, and indeed that is what Christ spent his ministry teaching by word and by example. In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not depart from what the commands that the Father has taught.

    In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so we are still under God's law. Furthermore, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to God and against sin, so verse 14 should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying God's law. For example, in Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted as now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so obedience to God's law is part of the content of God's gift of eternal life.

    Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and to choose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, and this is what it means to be under grace. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His laws for how to do that is again itself part of the content of His gift of salvation.
     
  18. Veteran1990

    Veteran1990 Member

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    First, So you understand, I did not post that the Law was nailed to God's Cross Despite it being In The Bible.
     
  19. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    You said "Firstly know that Christ nailed the LAW to the cross..."

    However, Colossians 2:14 does no say anything about any laws themselves being nailed to the cross, but rather it is speaking about the penalties of our transgressions of God's law being nailed to the cross.

    If God will curse us if we attempt to obey His commands, then it follows that God therefore does not what to be obeyed and that we would be better off refusing to obey His commands, which is absurd, but the reality is that the curse is only for those who refuse to obey His commands. Likewise, if God gave a law that would only curse His children, then He gave it with the intention of cursing His children.

    In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the Mosaic Law was given for the purpose of giving us knowledge of Jesus. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but through him, so everyone in the OT who was saved came to the Father through Jesus.

    I do not agree that any of the authors of the Bible conducted each other, and we should be quicker to conclude that we have not correctly understood them than to conclude that they contradict each other.

    God's said that His law is not too difficult to obey and I believe Him, while you are calling God a liar. In 1 John 5:3, it also confirms that God's law is not too difficult to obey by saying that to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome. The fact that our salvation is not something that can be earned by our obedience to God's law does not mean that it serves no purpose towards man's salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of the Mosaic Law, so choosing to live in obedience to it through faith is inherently connected to our salvation from living in transgression of it. We have example of people who did obey the Mosaic Law, such as Zechariah and Elizbeth (Luke 1:5-6), so it does not follow that if anyone is capable of obeying them, then they would be in Christ. There is not a single one of the Ten Commandments that you can point to as being too difficult for your to obey.
     
  20. Veteran1990

    Veteran1990 Member

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    That was posted by another user, I don't generally dare tread around God's Cross whenever I make comments or start asking elaborate questions. I might have copied something and was responding to someone else.
     
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