Confused by women and the feminism movement

returnn23

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Wow.

First, if you're in it for power and control, you're not looking for a partner.

When I was dating, I met someone who was intelligent, raised properly, and we quickly realized we were on the same page. I was the gentleman, she was the lady. Both of us had been taught good manners. I paid for dinner, I opened doors for her. She was appreciative and a lot of fun to be with. We could talk about anything - within appropriate limits - and God was an important part of our lives. We could go to the store or do some small chore together and just enjoyed each other's company. Trust had to be earned. On our first few dates, I could only meet her somewhere. Then she said I could pick her up. We didn't have everything in common but enough where we had all these wonderful conversations.

As time passed, things got even better. We had a few disagreements, as all couples do. A few misunderstandings. But we got through them.

Starting with the shrill Women's Liberation movement, too many women thought, "I'm not going to wait for the guy. I'm going to be aggressive. And if I want to have sex with the guy, I will." THAT is the big mistake. Sex first and ask questions later or not at all? That's not rational. You don't really know the guy. And later, if you find out he's a drinker or gambler or jerk, then what? The same for men. I was approached by a young lady for sex. I passed. I barely knew her. That's not a good starting point.

A friend of mine found a nice girl. She made more money than him. They really liked each other and just got married. They were together for a while.
 
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Paidiske

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Clearly there are tons of rich men from wealthy nations who cannot find a wife in their own wealthy culture (high maintenance, higher standards, difficult to please etc) go to poorer nations to pluck out a nice innocent wife (low maintenance, agreeable, easy to please/impress)....but we don't call those women losers. They are seen as simple, innocent, naive even....but very beautiful, very traditional, and good at cooking, taking care of the house and raising the kids, being submissive and obedient to the husband who usually is busy with his sophisticated career.
No, I don't call those women losers. I call them exploited, though. Taken advantage of by a man who uses his wealth to buy affection from someone whose circumstances are desperate, rather than do the hard work on his character to actually attract a woman for who he is.

I wouldn't much respect anyone - man or woman - who focussed purely on being good looking while playing a passive role in their own lives.

@returnn23 nails it when he says if you're in it for power and control, you're not looking for a partner.
 
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Miles

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I prefer women who are smart enough to see through the charade. Truly smart, perceptive, and shrewd women. Not naive. Naive women are more likely to be seduced by such social movements. Not less. A foreign woman who is naive is vulnerable to radicalization. A western woman who knows what she's up against and is able to resist it is a better bet. I prefer a significant other who thinks. Not an ideologue. Not the kind of woman who parrots the radical feminist ideology that she encounters in contemporary culture.
 
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Sketcher

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Date scenario: the woman has an 80,000 dollar car, lives in a mansion size residence, makes hella more money. The man drives a cheap economy car, has nothing luxurious to offer, and is barely making enough money to break even. They go on a date. Who should pay for the $200 dinner and show? The man should (traditionally) because he has to be the gentleman, but the woman has the means to provide for everything the man does not. So is the woman cheap? Shouldn't she be seen as the shameful one holding back all her wealth and power knowing the man can barely feed himself but expects him to pay. Why? Because he's a man.

I really don't know how often that comes up. I don't know how many women would willingly date men who are poorer when dating only to find a husband.
 
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trophy33

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Today's western world, but mostly USA, is a society where several inconsistent and conflicting ways of arranging life affairs are spread through the society in a very non-systematic manner.

That makes young people there confused about their roles and about what works. You never know what you are expected to do, because there is no standard anymore. Any woman may expect something totally different than other women. Some are offended by you paying for meal, some are offended by you not paying for meal. Some expect men to lead them, some are offended if you want to lead them. Some expect and want promiscuity, polyamory or whatever, some monogamous waiting for marriage. Some want to chase their career, some expect you to provide for them. Some even want to chase their career and still you providing for them. Some believe in no divorce, some believe in easy no fault divorce. Some want chivalry, some are offended by it. Some expect you to make the first move, some will consider it to be a harassment.

You never know beforehand. Common, generally accepted protocols for dating are non-existent. Too many options and no good examples lead to chaos. Absurd sensitivity to words and to small things people in other countries would not even notice, combined with extremism on all sides present everywhere in the American culture, does not help the situation at all.

Gen Z in the USA is the least happy generation since the WW2. And its not their fault, its the fault of their parents and grandparents, they have allowed the society to become this dysfunctional.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I really don't know how often that comes up. I don't know how many women would willingly date men who are poorer when dating only to find a husband.

I made more than my husband when we got married.

I was older, divorced, and my husband was a widower, so for us I think it was easier. I was definitely the instigator of the relationship on all counts though.

My husband told me straight up that he never would have asked me out because he automatically thought I wouldn't go for a guy like him. Absolutely everyone who knew me was shocked that I married him, actually, because they pictured me I suppose with a different type.

I think that's the thing about finding a significant other. You can't judge books by their cover, you can't just decide x person is going to want to be with a buff lawyer type with money, for instance. Same on the other hand too. You can't just assume x person is going to want to be with you just because you're in a similar social bracket either.

Finding someone to spend the rest of your life with isn't easy. It takes time and effort but honestly, in the end your looking for someone who has enough in common with you to be a complimentary partner in life.

You can check off any "no's" pretty quickly as a result, even with confusion on male female roles in dating. Possibles will be on a page similar to your own - on a mentality level.
 
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seeker2122

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I really don't know how often that comes up. I don't know how many women would willingly date men who are poorer when dating only to find a husband.

Yes, this is what I find fascinating. Men have no problems (in fact they probably PREFER) dating a woman who is poorer than him. This way it allows him to do the man-thing which is to provide for her, take care of her, and be her protector. But why do women who are rich don't prefer to find a man who is poorer than her? Does she still want and expect to be provided for and taken care of by her poor boyfriend/husband? She got what she wanted which was to be powerful and rich as men but now she's still expecting the man to be richer than her and still play his traditional manly role of protector and provider? This is confusing.
 
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seeker2122

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No, I don't call those women losers. I call them exploited, though. Taken advantage of by a man who uses his wealth to buy affection from someone whose circumstances are desperate, rather than do the hard work on his character to actually attract a woman for who he is.

I wouldn't much respect anyone - man or woman - who focussed purely on being good looking while playing a passive role in their own lives.

@returnn23 nails it when he says if you're in it for power and control, you're not looking for a partner.

I agree it is more describing exploitation. But the previous poster called men losers for being poor or less educated or having a less reputable/prestigious job. This is why men have it worse today because either you have to keep on improving yourself to remain "ahead" of the women who are gaining in leaps and bounds OR you will be a loser man. But we never call women losers for not being able to keep up with men. We actually still look at them as quite attractive, desirable, and beautiful. So why can't a man be desirable, attractive, and beautiful if he's making way less money than her and has a way less reputable job than her? Why does the world narrative want to regard that man as a loser.

Speaking of which, I have known many men in the west who "failed" to find a woman of his own level so-to-speak because he wasn't either attractive, special, unique enough to stand out from other men, but as soon as that "loser" man goes to a poor country, he becomes Tom Cruise or a celebrity in that land and gets women lining up to be with him, haha! So it's very interesting that people regard them as "losers" in our western society but when they go to a poorer society he becomes instantly a celebrity and desirable even though by our standards, he's less than average.
 
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Paidiske

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Does she still want and expect to be provided for and taken care of by her poor boyfriend/husband? She got what she wanted which was to be powerful and rich as men but now she's still expecting the man to be richer than her and still play his traditional manly role of protector and provider? This is confusing.
It's confusing because it's simply not the case.
So why can't a man be desirable, attractive, and beautiful if he's making way less money than her and has a way less reputable job than her?
He can. I think, for example, of Julia Gillard, our former Prime Minister. Her partner was a hairdresser (I believe they met because she went to the salon he worked at). Now, I don't know his circumstances and it's possible he was a very good hairdresser, on good money for the profession; but very few people would say his job carried more prestige than hers (and almost certainly not more money). Yet they had, from everything I know, a good, solid, happy partnership. It's very possible, if we leave our assumptions and expectations at the door and learn to appreciate people for who they are.
Why does the world narrative want to regard that man as a loser.
That's one narrative, but it's not the only narrative, and I'm not even sure it's one the majority would hold to, any more. Wealth is a pretty poor measure of a human being.
 
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Sketcher

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Yes, this is what I find fascinating. Men have no problems (in fact they probably PREFER) dating a woman who is poorer than him. This way it allows him to do the man-thing which is to provide for her, take care of her, and be her protector. But why do women who are rich don't prefer to find a man who is poorer than her? Does she still want and expect to be provided for and taken care of by her poor boyfriend/husband? She got what she wanted which was to be powerful and rich as men but now she's still expecting the man to be richer than her and still play his traditional manly role of protector and provider? This is confusing.
That I couldn't tell you. You would have to look at rich women and the men they marry and look at commonalities between the different couples. What are the men like? How much do they earn compared to her, and compared to the average man? You would need to look not just at individual cases, but broad numbers to see what the common trend is and therefore what is more probable. And of course, look at how the marriages turned out. Who stayed married, and of those who did stay married, what were their traits and how were they treated? While I would say that both Todd Palin and Will Smith are above average men, I wouldn't recommend that men get wives that treat them the way they were treated.
 
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seeker2122

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Here's an interesting study if anyone can pitch in.
Compare the amount of rich/famous/powerful/well-established men with average to below average women (in both status and appearance)
vs the amount of rich/famous/powerful/well-established women with average to below average men (in both status and appearance).
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Feminism is only one element of a broad attack Satan has made on the institution of the family. these attacks are part of his larger plan to collectivize the world so that he can leverage his influence. Here is a link to explain some of Satans work. The bible says that we are not unaware of his plans (2 Cor 2:11).

pdf

web pages

If you can find a more traditional Christian gal who agrees with your more traditional perspective, it might be more productive than dealing with those who are convinced to follow the "modern" path.

The definition of love (1 Cor 13:4-7) is essentially selflessness. Feminism (as most modern issues) is oriented toward selfishness. Once you can understand that many men as well as women have been decieved to accept foolish ideas of Satan, you will be less annoyed with what seems unfair.
If I encountered a feminist woman, I would give her a wide berth. Although I respect women's rights, I would certainly turn my back on a man-hating feminist and walk away from her.
 
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ThisIsMe123

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This is how we know we're in the last generation. It's really bad. Sodom and Gomorrah bad. My own life experiences since the late 80's (as an adult) are that people are untrustworthy and incapable of being loyal. It's why I don't date.
Funny how you pin pointed that particular time stamp.
Hm, I think this is where being a late bloomer in high school kind of hurt me, the late 80s. Never went to prom, was too shy to ask women out in high school. Dating back then wasn't much of a priority, though I did notice the gals.

I didn't start my first forway into dating until the 90s, mid-90s even moreso....and even then the gaps between getting a date were quite large. Pre-Internet, I was always friend zoned most of the time or I'd always find women that were engaged to be married to their high school sweet hearts or whomever the met while in college.

Back then, marriage wasn't even on my mind, and I would always kind of being taken aback by a 19-year old woman calling her sig. other her "fiance'" People had thoughts of marriage THAT young?

I recall a Christian couple that came to the arcade a lot. They were seniors in high school, and already had wedding plans set come graduation time. I said, "You know, marriages that young tend to not last long" (I didn't say this to THEM, but to a friend of there's that was happy for them, but she frowned when I said that.

But I have noticed in the 80s, you were starting to see sit-coms where you'd see single family heads of households a lot. I remember the TV show "My Two Dads" where 2 men and their daughter/step-daughter were all living together. It was kind of a weird set-up. They were basically 2 ex-husbands of one woman/ex-wife.

I recall my dad not approving of that narrative, being the traditional father that he was. You would start to see movies showing some kind of background story to the character, involving kids of a broken home (divorce), and they are moving to a new city post-divorce. Etc etc etc.
 
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ThisIsMe123

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I wanted to point out, that I've known a quite a few new marriages where the husband demands their new wives to leave their jobs just so that he'd be the sole provider.

I say "demands" kind of tongue and cheek, because I would always hear the new wife, "Well, my husband doesn't want me to work, so I agreed to it"
I'm like "ooookayyy, so that's how your marriage is going to start off?"

It's really about being in control I suppose.

I know a woman that is an organist for her church, and she said men are intimidated by the fact she's doing well financially, with a great career. She says they don't like the idea of her being able to support herself.

Basically, they are looking for a woman that's almost destitute and can't make ends meet. They are looking for a helpless woman.
 
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trophy33

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I wanted to point out, that I've known a quite a few new marriages where the husband demands their new wives to leave their jobs just so that he'd be the sole provider.

I say "demands" kind of tongue and cheek, because I would always hear the new wife, "Well, my husband doesn't want me to work, so I agreed to it"
I'm like "ooookayyy, so that's how your marriage is going to start off?"

It's really about being in control I suppose.

I know a woman that is an organist for her church, and she said men are intimidated by the fact she's doing well financially, with a great career. She says they don't like the idea of her being able to support herself.

Basically, they are looking for a woman that's almost destitute and can't make ends meet. They are looking for a helpless woman.
Men are not intimidated by it. Its a misunderstanding, sometimes consciously spread by media/feminism.

The truth is that, psychologically, men are programmed to take care about women and protect them (and children). A "strong, independent" woman is not intimidating, its simply not fulfilling this psychological need - and therefore not attractive for a relationship/marriage. The crisis of a man's role ("What am I supposed to do in a relationship if I am not needed?").

Speaking generally of course - there are always some individual specifics.
 
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Paidiske

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Any man who needs to keep a woman dependent in order to fulfil his psychological needs, is not looking like a healthy (or safe) life partner. The point of being in a relationship is not to disempower the other, but to be more together than either of you could be alone.
 
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trophy33

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Any man who needs to keep a woman dependent in order to fulfil his psychological needs, is not looking like a healthy (or safe) life partner. The point of being in a relationship is not to disempower the other, but to be more together than either of you could be alone.
If you do not need a man, do not look for a man. Simple as that.

"I am a strong, independent woman, but I am frustrated that the top men do not want me, so I will use some fear shaming" is not going to work.
 
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Paidiske

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There are lots of things I don't "need" that are great blessings in life. My argument is that framing a man's role in a marriage around the premise of women's disempowerment/dependence is really, really unhealthy.

Fortunately, there are many men who value capable women as life partners without needing to reduce them to chattel.
 
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