Conflation and Twisting of the Scriptures on the Sabbath (under Construction)

[Pavel Mosko]

1) Conflation of the Biblical terms of Nomos (Mosaic Law) and Entoli (personal commands of Jesus and other people in the Greek) the New Testament differentiates these things with different terms but Seventh day Adventist conflate them with verses like

John 14:15-31​

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

A number of Jesus's commandments go beyond the Mosaic Law requiring people to be more proactive when it comes to doing things like loving their neighbor or avoiding the enticement of sin. On the other hand, I believe that Jesus commands are much benevolent when it comes to some of the exhausting minutiae of the Law, and the halacha around it. I believe they get at the real spirit of the law that Love of God and Love of man is the summation of the Law.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

2) I'm currently studying and watching a video how the Hebrew world Olam often rendered "Eternal" by Strong's Concordance has been grossly mistranslated and oversimplified. Will re-edit the post with my notes on that.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

3) Will be on the "10 Words of Sinai" often referred as the 10 commandments and the word games generally played with these and the Mitzvot, and other kinds of theological Gerrymandering of the text.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

4) Will be on how terms related to the Mosaic law, such as "Moral law", and "Ceremonial Law" are artificial/theological distinctions not found in the text itself (for those claiming to be scriptural etc.).


In General, we Christians "summarize" the 10 commandments and the other Mitzvot with 2 commandments originally cited by Jesus in the Gospels who equated their intent at least with 1) Love of God, and 2) love of our neighbors and this is love is expressed by deferring to the needs of others, proactively looking out for their welfare, and avoiding things and situations that corrupt and pollute our mind making us more likely to be tempted and sin, etc.


I would say also that Christians for 2 millennia honor the 10 commandments as being a kind of handy example of love in action. They are an objective reference point to Sloppy Agapism, much like how saint Paul described them in one of his epistles as a pedagogue (a slave that that schooled young children).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

2) I'm currently studying and watching a video how the Hebrew world Olam often rendered "Eternal" by Strong's Concordance has been grossly mistranslated and oversimplified. Will re-edit the post with my notes on that.

Just curious you seem to be getting a lot of your information from "videos" but people in videos do not trump God's Word.

Perhaps you can answer these questions from scripture.

• What day did God bless, sanctify (set apart for holy use) and made holy?
• What day does God identify as My holy day
• What day did God rest from all of His works
• What day is commanded to keep holy and part of God's Ten Commandments or Ten Words
• What did God deem to do on all other days except for one?
• Where is the scripture that says we can break any of God's Ten Commandments or Ten Words
• What is in the Most Holy of Gods Temple where He dwells in heaven?
• Did Jesus keep these Ten Words and are we told in scripture to follow His example.
• Does Jesus teach on His Father's commandments?
• Which day did the disciples preach Gods Word every week?
• What day will continue for worship in Heaven

 

[Soyeong]

I am going to revise this OP every few days so it will eventually be an exhaustive list that orthodox Christians can use for this subject.


1) Conflation of the Biblical terms of Nomos (Mosaic Law) and Entoli (personal commands of Jesus and other people in the Greek) the New Testament differentiates these things with different terms but Seventh day Adventist conflate them with verses like

There are many verses where "entoli" refers to the commandments of God:

In Matthew 5:17-19, it refers to the Law and the Prophets.

In Matthew 15:3 and 15:6, it refers to the commandments of God.

In Matthew 19:17, the Ten Commandments are examples of what it is referring to.

In Matthew 22:36-40, it refers to the Mosaic Law.

In Mark 7:8 and 7:9, it refers to the commandments of God.

In Mark 10:5, it refers to the Mosaic Law.

In Mark 10:19, it refers to the Ten Commandments.

In Mark 12:28-31, it refers to the Mosai Law.

I could go on, but so far there is not a single example in Matthew or Mark where "entoli" is used to distinguish between the personal commands of Jesus and the Mosaic Law. Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses, including keeping the Sabbath holy, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6)

John 14:15-31​

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The way to love the Father is identical to the way to love the Son and there are many verses in both the OT and the NT that show that God's commandments are His instructions for how to do that, so again I don't see any grounds for thinking that this verse is referring to something else. In John 15:10, Jesus used a parallel statement to equate us keeping his entoli with him keeping the entoli of the Father, and again if his entail were something different, then that would mean that he hypocritically preached something other than what he practiced, and that he wanted us to only follow what he said, but to not follow his example, which also would negate the whole rabbi/disciple relationship.

A number of Jesus's commandments go beyond the Mosaic Law requiring people to be more proactive when it comes to doing things like loving their neighbor or avoiding the enticement of sin. On the other hand, I believe that Jesus commands are much benevolent when it comes to some of the exhausting minutiae of the Law, and the halacha around it. I believe they get at the real spirit of the law that Love of God and Love of man is the summation of the Law.

In Galatians 4:4, Jesus was born under the law, so he was obligated to obey it, and he was sinless, so he never broke it, which includes never breaking Deuteronomy 4:2, which prohibits adding to or subtracting from the law, so he did not God beyond the Mosaic Law, and for you to suggest that he did is to claim that he sinned and to deny that he is our Savior. Teaching people to be more proactive in their obedience to the Mosaic Law is not going beyond the Mosaic Law. Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow, so he did not modify the Mosaic Law, though he did teach how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended. A sum is inclusive of all of its parts, so a summation of the Mosaic Law does not modify it, but teaches about what it is essentially about how to do. For example, when we keep the Sabbath holy, we are expressing our love for God's holiness, but when someone does not do that, they are expressing that they do not love that aspect of who God is.

 

[Lulav]

4) Will be on how terms related to the Mosaic law, such as "Moral law", and "Ceremonial Law" are artificial/theological distinctions not found in the text itself (for those claiming to be scriptural etc.).


In General, we Christians "summarize" the 10 commandments and the other Mitzvot with 2 commandments originally cited by Jesus in the Gospels who equated their intent at least with 1) Love of God, and 2) love of our neighbors and this is love is expressed by deferring to the needs of others, proactively looking out for their welfare, and avoiding things and situations that corrupt and pollute our mind making us more likely to be tempted and sin, etc.


I would say also that Christians for 2 millennia honor the 10 commandments as being a kind of handy example of love in action. They are an objective reference point to Sloppy Agapism, much like how saint Paul described them in one of his epistles as a pedagogue (a slave that that schooled young children).

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?​

​

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.​

​

38 This is the first and great commandment.​

​

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.​

​

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.​

See above for the hanger of Love

 

[trophy33]

Generally, nomos means law and entolé means teaching.

But its always important to consider the context. And manytimes the context is simply so ambiguous that our opinion is as good as any.

 

[Soyeong]

4) Will be on how terms related to the Mosaic law, such as "Moral law", and "Ceremonial Law" are artificial/theological distinctions not found in the text itself (for those claiming to be scriptural etc.).

Agree. While the Bible uses Hebrew terms to refer to categories of law, those categories do not resemble that categories of moral or ceremonial law. For example, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the mishpatim and chukim, and while most Christians obey the mishpatim out of love for God's righteousness and justice, they do not want to obey the chukim, so those are aspects of who God is that they do not love.

In General, we Christians "summarize" the 10 commandments and the other Mitzvot with 2 commandments originally cited by Jesus in the Gospels who equated their intent at least with 1) Love of God, and 2) love of our neighbors and this is love is expressed by deferring to the needs of others, proactively looking out for their welfare, and avoiding things and situations that corrupt and pollute our mind making us more likely to be tempted and sin, etc.


I would say also that Christians for 2 millennia honor the 10 commandments as being a kind of handy example of love in action. They are an objective reference point to Sloppy Agapism, much like how saint Paul described them in one of his epistles as a pedagogue (a slave that that schooled young children).

Everything in the Mosaic Law is an example of how we are to love God and our neighbor, which is why those are the greatest two commandments and all of the other commandments hang on them, so they are all connected. The five principles on which the Ten Commandments are based also the principles on which God's other commandments are based, so if we uphold those principles as well as the greatest two commandments, then we will obey God's other commandments.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

5) probably going to be based on this video talking about Adventism's claim of the uniqueness of the 10 commandments being "written on stone" from famous pastors like Doug Batchelor etc.

 

[Soyeong]

5) probably going to be based on this video talking about Adventism's claim of the uniqueness of the 10 commandments being "written on stone" from famous pastors like Doug Batchelor etc.

It says the Law of Moses is for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so it is not against us, but rather what is a witness against us is when we sin in transgression of it. For example, the law against theft is not against us, but other it is for our own good, however, when a sign that says that someone is a thief is nailed to their cross, then that is a hand-written ordinance that bears witness against them. Romans did not nail to the cross the laws themselves such that they had to legislate new laws against theft to replace the old one every time that they crucified someone for theft.

 

[BobRyan]

1) Conflation of the Biblical terms of Nomos (Mosaic Law) and Entoli (personal commands of Jesus and other people in the Greek) the New Testament differentiates these things with different terms but Seventh day Adventist conflate them with verses like

John 14:15-31​

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

A number of Jesus's commandments go beyond the Mosaic Law requiring people to be more proactive when it comes to doing things like loving their neighbor or avoiding the enticement of sin. On the other hand, I believe that Jesus commands are much benevolent when it comes to some of the exhausting minutiae of the Law, and the halacha around it. I believe they get at the real spirit of the law that Love of God and Love of man is the summation of the Law.

Jesus expands and deepens our understanding of God's commandments - instead of "deleting them".

And it is not just Seventh-day Adventists that notice this Bible detail -- as this entire subforum proves.

 

[BobRyan]

5) probably going to be based on this video talking about Adventism's claim of the uniqueness of the 10 commandments being "written on stone" from famous pastors like Doug Batchelor etc.

In the OT Moses tells us that the TEN are written in stone and kept inside the ark.

That OT books of Moses were not "written by Adventists" so we can quote them as the source for this Bible fact.

 

[BobRyan]

The Title to this thread looks like it is a "project" to conflate and twist scripture. Maybe the title should be changed a bit.

 

[trophy33]

Jesus expands and deepens our understanding of God's commandments - instead of "deleting them".

And it is not just Seventh-day Adventists that notice this Bible detail -- as this entire subforum proves.

The Mosaic Law has never been given to nations or to Christians.

There are some universal moral principles in it (like "Do not murder") that apply throughout cultures and times, but you do not need the Mosaic Law as a whole to be in place for that.

Talking about the Mosaic Law as it was still in place today, is anachronism.

Edit: Removing huge white space below the first sentence.

 

[BobRyan]

The Mosaic Law has never been given to nations or to Christians.

Until you read Matt 19, Eph 6:2, James 2, Rom 13, Rom 7 ...

There are some universal moral principles in it (like "Do not murder") that apply throughout cultures

It is impossible to ignore direct quotes of scripture by Christ in Matt 19 quoting from the law of Moses
It is impossible to ignore direct quotes of scripture by Christ in Matt 22 quoting from the law of Moses
It is impossible to ignore direct quotes of scripture by Paul in Rom 14 quoting from the law of Moses

It is impossible to ignore direct quotes of scripture by Paul in Eph 6:2 quoting from the law of Moses and reminding the reader in what order that commandment appears in that Law of Moses

It is impossible to ignore direct quotes of scripture by James in James 2 quoting from the law of Moses

IT is not "just so happens to use the exact same language" rather it is direct quotes as Eph 6:2 proves beyond all doubt.

You seem to making the point that if you hold the details of NT scripture at a sufficient distance you can suggest just about any idea - a point of fact found in scripture which I of course do agree with.

 

[eleos1954]

1) Conflation of the Biblical terms of Nomos (Mosaic Law) and Entoli (personal commands of Jesus and other people in the Greek) the New Testament differentiates these things with different terms but Seventh day Adventist conflate them with verses like

John 14:15-31​

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

A number of Jesus's commandments go beyond the Mosaic Law requiring people to be more proactive when it comes to doing things like loving their neighbor or avoiding the enticement of sin. On the other hand, I believe that Jesus commands are much benevolent when it comes to some of the exhausting minutiae of the Law, and the halacha around it. I believe they get at the real spirit of the law that Love of God and Love of man is the summation of the Law.

No conflation going on anywhere with SDA ..... The 10 is the "short" list of our relationship with God (1st table) and man (2nd table).

Sin IS transgression of the Law ..... what law?

The 10 are laws .... when kept produce love.

Love of God and Love of man is the summation of the Law.

Yes summed up in the 10.

Jesus is the one that gave the 10 commandments on Sanai .....


Malachi 3:6 KJV
For I am the LORD, I change not;

Matthew 8

The Fulfillment of the Law

17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[trophy33]

Until you read Matt 19, Eph 6:2, James 2, Rom 13, Rom 7 ...

I read them, nothing changed.

Do you have something specific in mind, regarding those?

You have been the most specific with Eph 6:2, there are four instructions in the beginning of the chapter - for children, for fathers, for slaves and for their masters.

I suppose you try to say that because Paul refers to the Mosaic Law in the first one, it means the Mosaic Law as a whole is given to Christians? No.

 

[BobRyan]

Until you read Matt 19, Eph 6:2, James 2, Rom 13, Rom 7 ...

It is impossible to ignore direct quotes of scripture by Christ in Matt 19 quoting from the law of Moses
It is impossible to ignore direct quotes of scripture by Christ in Matt 22 quoting from the law of Moses
It is impossible to ignore direct quotes of scripture by Paul in Rom 14 quoting from the law of Moses

It is impossible to ignore direct quotes of scripture by Paul in Eph 6:2 quoting from the law of Moses and reminding the reader in what order that commandment appears in that Law of Moses

It is impossible to ignore direct quotes of scripture by James in James 2 quoting from the law of Moses

IT is not "just so happens to use the exact same language" rather it is direct quotes as Eph 6:2 proves beyond all doubt.

You seem to making the point that if you hold the details of NT scripture at a sufficient distance you can suggest just about any idea - a point of fact found in scripture which I of course do agree with.

I read them, nothing changed.

Do you have something specific in mind, regarding those?

Yes - I kept noting the "direct quote of the OT law of Moses " in each case - I thought you might notice my comment each time.

A few simple examples in case the chapter is a bit long

Matt 19:
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said,
“You shall not commit murder; Ex 20
You shall not commit adultery; Ex 20
You shall not steal; Ex 20
You shall not give false testimony; Ex 20
19 Honor your father and mother; Ex 20
and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Lev 19:18)

20 The young man *said to Him, “All these I have kept; what am I still lacking?”

​

​

Eph 6:2​

Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3 so that it may turn out well for you, and that you may live long on the earth.​

​

​

James 2​

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” (Lev 19:18) you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the Law as violators. 10 For whoever keeps the whole Law, yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” (Ex 20) also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do murder, you have become a violator of the Law. 12 So speak, and so act, as those who are to be judged by the law of freedom​

If you think it is necessary - I can quote each of the other chapters above for you as well - let me know..
=======================

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN"

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]many others as well..

 

[trophy33]

Yes - I kept noting the "direct quote of the OT law of Moses " in each case - I thought you might notice my comment each time.

A few simple examples in case the chapter is a bit long

Matt 19:
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said,
“You shall not commit murder; Ex 20
You shall not commit adultery; Ex 20
You shall not steal; Ex 20
You shall not give false testimony; Ex 20
19 Honor your father and mother; Ex 20
and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Lev 19:18)

20 The young man *said to Him, “All these I have kept; what am I still lacking?”


Eph 6:2
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), 3 so that it may turn out well for you, and that you may live long on the earth.

If you think it is necessary - I can quote each of the chapters above for you.

No wonder almost every Christian denomination on Earth affirms the continued *"unit of TEN"

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]D. James Kennedy
[*]many others as well..

Jesus quoting Law to a Jew does not establish that the Mosaic Law as a whole applied to Gentiles or Christians.

Cultural references or references to writings apostles were accustomed to do not establish that it applies as a whole.

Paul quoting Greek philosophers or John using Greek Logos or Jude using Enoch do not establish that Christians are under the Greek philosophy or apocrypha. The same thing with the Mosaic Law the apostles were used to and used in their writings as a teaching aid.

You would need a clear text that the Mosaic Law was given to nations or Christians.