Confessional Lutheranism True Church

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I feel your statement is too broad. First, not all parishes have stopped using the Athanasian Creed, mine has used it and the ELCA says others do. Second, the Creed is still affirmed officially and in ELCA published texts. So, while some, even many, laity and possibly clergy may not agree with the anathemas in the Creed, the ELCA in general officially does and even the people not agreeing with the anathemas would seem to agree with the rest. If the official statements from the ELCA change then I would completely agree, but when they have not then I cannot. If the LCMS wants to state it as you do then that is up to them and their followers, I mean only to position what is actually stated officially by the ELCA and to show that not all parishes are as you have been lead to believe.

True enough, but, and this is a big but; the ELCA seems that they would rather accommodate those who reject points of orthodox theology, than to admonish them. The condoning of heterodoxy within one's communion (even when they don't see it as such) is in itself heterodoxy.

 

[tampasteve]

True enough, but, and this is a big but; the ELCA seems that they would rather accommodate those who reject points of orthodox theology, than to admonish them. The condoning of heterodoxy within one's communion (even when they don't see it as such) is in itself heterodoxy.

I believe I understand, but do not necessarily agree, but I can see where you are coming from.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I believe I understand, but do not necessarily agree, but I can see where you are coming from.

Thanks, we are adults a and can disagree.

 

[Newtheran]

How can I be assured that confessional Lutheranism is and contains the pure gospel of Christ? How can I be assured that is is Lutherans that echo what Christ intended in the church, and not Orthodox Christians?

In other words, what within Lutheranism challenges the Orthodox's claim that it alone is the one, true church?

Having spent most of my life outside of both traditions, I have come to the conclusion that confessional Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy probably represent the two extant church bodies closest to the faith and practice of the first century church. They don't necessarily agree on everything of course, primarily because Lutheranism was an attempt to roll back 500 years of Roman Catholic innovation from the time of the schism in 1054 (after which, Roman Catholics added another 500 years of innovation).

It's sort of like trying to compare a wrecked and rebuilt 65 Mustang with a barn find 65 Mustang. Neither is going to identically reflect the car when it was on the showroom floor but both are going to be much closer facsimiles of the original than the wrecked (unrepaired) car or a car that was wrecked, rebuilt, and turned into a demolition derby car.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Having spent most of my life outside of both traditions, I have come to the conclusion that confessional Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy probably represent the two extant church bodies closest to the faith and practice of the first century church.

Here in Finland, where the Orthodox Church of Finland remains a state church, many Lutherans -- myself included -- feel certain affinity to the Orthodox services particularly. The nationally televised Orthodox Easter services is hugely popular with many Lutherans (again, myself included) tuning in as well as actually attending the Easter night services in our Orthodox churches -- sometimes so much so that we outnumber the Orthodox members!

It's rather curious -- Lutheranism is extremely rational, no-nonsense, ascetic, bare-bones: just Word and Faith. Our churches have bare walls, as opposed to the visual feast of lavish Roman Catholic churches of gold and marble. We are not big on angels, saints and miracles. Eastern Orthodoxy, contrarily, is full of oriental mysticism: incence, chanting, icons and iconostasis, monasticism. At the same time, it is probably this exotic sensual feast of five (or six) senses that appeals to us Lutherans, accustomed to sit in the pews singing solemn hymns and following a solemn liturgy and listening to a solemn sermon.

 

[Newtheran]

Thank you, Firedragon. I will check out Wagschal's website. Lutheranism is by far the most biblical and theologically accurate Protestant church. Orthodoxy is the most theologically accurate 'apostolic' church. I just have to decide between the two. May The Holy Spirit have mercy on me.

i think you have understood. Keep in mind that at least in the United States, the ELCA has fallen into deep moral heresy while the LCMS and WELS continue in the Christian faith. So if you decide that Lutheranism is the route you should go (as I did), be cautious as to which sort of Lutheran you become.

 

[FireDragon76]

This is one of the reasons why the ELCIC/ELCA and the Anglican Church of Canada has dropped it from their service books; this is also why the ELCIC/ELCA do not affirm the 1580 Book of Concord. This is also one of the reasons that we in LCC are not in fellowship with the ELCIC.

I have never heard the notion that the ELCA does not affirm the 1580 book of Concord. From what I have read, we do. That we do not understand it necessarily in the way the LCMS do, is truer to the facts.

In the service books I have encountered, the Athanasian Creed is present. Our service books in our church are from the 90's of course, as is the one I have at home. So if there has been a change, it has been relatively recently.

A lot of these issues go back to an even bigger issue which is the interpretation standards applied to Scripture which is the root cause of the rift between our Synods, and what we in LCC/LCMS see as a departure from orthodoxy by the ELCIC/ELCA.

Given that the LCMS punishes pastors for even praying with people who aren't in their church, I'm not too bothered by the fact we don't exactly see things the way the LCMS does.

 

[FireDragon76]

i think you have understood. Keep in mind that at least in the United States, the ELCA has fallen into deep moral heresy while the LCMS and WELS continue in the Christian faith. So if you decide that Lutheranism is the route you should go (as I did), be cautious as to which sort of Lutheran you become.

Disagreement over practical implications of Christian living is not enough to make a group non-Christian.

 

[FireDragon76]

Here in Finland, where the Orthodox Church of Finland remains a state church, many Lutherans -- myself included -- feel certain affinity to the Orthodox services particularly. The nationally televised Orthodox Easter services is hugely popular with many Lutherans (again, myself included) tuning in as well as actually attending the Easter night services in our Orthodox churches -- sometimes so much so that we outnumber the Orthodox members!

It's rather curious -- Lutheranism is extremely rational, no-nonsense, ascetic, bare-bones: just Word and Faith. Our churches have bare walls, as opposed to the visual feast of lavish Roman Catholic churches of gold and marble. We are not big on angels, saints and miracles. Eastern Orthodoxy, contrarily, is full of oriental mysticism: incence, chanting, icons and iconostasis, monasticism. At the same time, it is probably this exotic sensual feast of five (or six) senses that appeals to us Lutherans, accustomed to sit in the pews singing solemn hymns and following a solemn liturgy and listening to a solemn sermon.

I really think that's down to more Scandinavian sensibilities, as well as the excesses of pietism (which came straight out of the sensibilities of the Reformed churches), than to something inherent in being Lutheran. It's like if the wedding at Cana were to happen today, many Lutherans would complain that Christ made so much wine.

I don't necessarily think Lutheranism is "rational", at least not as much as Reformed churches tend to be (again, that could be down more to Scandinavians). Lutheranism can definitely be more scholastic, which is often a good thing. And in the Orthodox liturgy, interspersed with all the icons and incense is a great deal of penitential, solemn religion - the Paschal/Easter vigil is more of an exception than a rule.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

<Snip>I don't necessarily think Lutheranism is "rational", at least not as much as Reformed churches tend to be (again, that could be down more to Scandinavians). Lutheranism can definitely be more scholastic, which is often a good thing. <Snip>

More "Scholastic" than Eastern Orthodoxy; Less "Scholastic" than Roman Catholicism.

Certainly there are isolated remnants of pietism in Lutheranism; but over all, a better word might be "Pragmatic" regarding our approach to tradition, history and Scripture.

 

[FireDragon76]

More "Scholastic" than Eastern Orthodoxy; Less "Scholastic" than Roman Catholicism.

Certainly there are isolated remnants of pietism in Lutheranism; but over all, a better word might be "Pragmatic" regarding our approach to tradition, history and Scripture.

Yes, that is how I would describe it too.

I just wonder how a tradition that produced a great deal of art could come down to bare walls and empty crosses. Perhaps the pragmatic aspect has become a fundamentalist creed for the cretin. If I had any criticism of my own congregation, its the generally conventional and bland ethos that pervades. Sometimes I think its not a wonder our churches are declining.

It's sort of ironic that Anglicans began as a tradition that tore down statues and whitewashed walls, but Anglicans, at least in the US, seem to be better at appreciating art and culture today than Lutherans.

 

[Basil the Great]

Having spent most of my life outside of both traditions, I have come to the conclusion that confessional Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy probably represent the two extant church bodies closest to the faith and practice of the first century church. They don't necessarily agree on everything of course, primarily because Lutheranism was an attempt to roll back 500 years of Roman Catholic innovation from the time of the schism in 1054 (after which, Roman Catholics added another 500 years of innovation).

It's sort of like trying to compare a wrecked and rebuilt 65 Mustang with a barn find 65 Mustang. Neither is going to identically reflect the car when it was on the showroom floor but both are going to be much closer facsimiles of the original than the wrecked (unrepaired) car or a car that was wrecked, rebuilt, and turned into a demolition derby car.

Wow! What a very surprising conclusion to hear from a Baptist! It is nice to be surprised sometimes.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Yes, that is how I would describe it too.

I just wonder how a tradition that produced a great deal of art could come down to bare walls and empty crosses. Perhaps the pragmatic aspect has become a fundamentalist creed for the cretin. If I had any criticism of my own congregation, its the generally conventional and bland ethos that pervades. Sometimes I think its not a wonder our churches are declining.

It's sort of ironic that Anglicans began as a tradition that tore down statues and whitewashed walls, but Anglicans, at least in the US, seem to be better at appreciating art and culture today than Lutherans.

Yes, "pragmatic" rather than "rational" was probably the English term I was looking for.

Of course, with Lutheranism, there was no longer need for lavish side altars for various saints to pray for, which used to be sort of big business. Word in one's own language replaced pictures to go with unintelligible Church Latin.

Here in Finland and the Nordic countries the bare walls "tradition" is also all about money and directly related to the Reformation when the Crown assumed control of the Church and its material wealth (which even during the Catholic era wasn't all that lavish to begin with but rather home-made since this was poor and periferic part of Europe), i.e. the Church Reduction and the following era of strict Lutheran Orthodoxy at the time when Roman Catholic churches were being filled with baroque art. The Great Reduction of 1680 further cut the nobility's ability to privately support and donate to their local churches to display their wealth. It didn't help that the rivalling Novgorod/Russian empire next door regularly raided Finnish churches so the art and valuables parishes had managed to acquire got stolen or had to be permanently kept in Stockholm for safekeeping. Only the Medieval wall paintings remained because they could not be stolen. Even these were whitewashed, since in the land of polar night and no electricity, white walls provided light.

Circumstances, you could say, became an enduring aesthetic norm.

 

[Newtheran]

Disagreement over practical implications of Christian living is not enough to make a group non-Christian.

No, but disagreeing with God over his law does.

ELCA Hits Bottom | Robert Benne

 

[FireDragon76]

No, but disagreeing with God over his law does.

ELCA Hits Bottom | Robert Benne

I hardly find an embittered, partisan rant persuasive or edifying. That's one reason I broke away from the Rad Trad crowd that First Things often presents. It's simply political partisanship (of the paleoconservative variety) masquerading as an intellectual approach to the Christian faith.

I try to get along with my fellow Lutherans here, even though we disagree a great deal on how to interpret the Lutheran confessions and the Bible. However, my faith is ultimately not dependent on the approval of others with whom there is disagreement.

 

[Newtheran]

It's telling that you would see Benne's article as an embittered partisan rant. As for me, I will continue to stand in opposition to those who would attempt to use Christianity as a tool to normalize evil.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's telling that you would see Benne's article as an embittered partisan rant. As for me, I will continue to stand in opposition to those who would attempt to use Christianity as a tool to normalize evil.

Go oppose it in your fellow Baptists. Biblicism has no place in my religious tradition.

 

[FireDragon76]

BTW, after the attack on Pulse nightclub (which is less than two miles away from my congregation), my pastor received letters of condolence and support from pastors from many different Lutheran synods, including one WELS pastor. Even though we have serious disagreements and do not have full fellowship with each other, I believe Lutherans in the US can at least live with each other and respect each others attempts to live out the Christian faith as we have received it.

 

[Solomon Smith]

I would say that confessional Lutheranism is the one true religion. No other church adequately administrators the gospel and has complete and correct doctrines.

 

[kdm1984]

I would say that confessional Lutheranism is the one true religion. No other church adequately administrators the gospel and has complete and correct doctrines.

Where do you think the more conservative Reformed Calvinist churches fall short? Of all the denominations I've encountered, they are certainly the most vociferous that they have the correct doctrines. (I don't think they do, but I'm wanting to hear your reasoning.)