Confessional Lutheranism True Church

godenver1

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How can I be assured that confessional Lutheranism is and contains the pure gospel of Christ? How can I be assured that is is Lutherans that echo what Christ intended in the church, and not Orthodox Christians?

In other words, what within Lutheranism challenges the Orthodox's claim that it alone is the one, true church?
 

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How can I be assured that confessional Lutheranism is and contains the pure gospel of Christ? How can I be assured that is is Lutherans that echo what Christ intended in the church, and not Orthodox Christians?

In other words, what within Lutheranism challenges the Orthodox's claim that it alone is the one, true church?
Except Lutheranism does not claim that it is the only one true Church; that would imply that there is no salvation outside of Lutheranism. Rather, Lutheranism teaches that there are two Churches; the "Church Militant" and the "Church Triumphant". The Church Militant is the visible Church here in this world which consists of the denominations, buildings, organizations that we see, it is made up of both believers and non believers. The Church Triumphant is the invisible Church made up of only believers; and not just those in this world, but those who are in the next life as well; it is the one holy catholic and apostolic Church, it is the communion of the saints that we confess in our Creeds.
 
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Originally coming from a charismatic environment, I was won over to Lutheran doctrine because that's where I found the Gospel to be the clearest. Specifically, in its confession that salvation is entirely from God, but damnation entirely from us.

Now, our Roman Catholic friends will certainly disagree with this, but from a Lutheran point of view, doctrinally and historically speaking, it is the Evangelical Lutheran church that is the true "Roman" church. The desire of the reformers was not to create an original church, but rather to conservatively reform and revert to the original doctrines that were once held by the early church; the apostolic faith. In this respect, both Anglicans and Lutherans can claim apostolic succession (though this can be understood in many different ways).

In short though, Lutherans confess: "That one holy Church is to continue forever. The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered.", carefully not making a claim that the Lutheran church alone is the only true church. For more info on this, I would read up on the theology of the "visible and invisible church". viz. the visible church including all members, whether true or not. And the invisible, including only true believers. Traditionally, the Roman Catholic Church reject this and identify with the invisible church (in visible form), but Lutherans hold that the Holy Church's members can be found in many different branches of Christendom, even where the Gospel is not preached clearly, or where the Sacraments are not properly understood, because salvation is not a matter of nominal membership, but correctly of God's grace, apprehended through faith.
 
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godenver1

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Except Lutheranism does not claim that it is the only one true Church; that would imply that there is no salvation outside of Lutheranism. Rather, Lutheranism teaches that there are two Churches; the "Church Militant" and the "Church Triumphant". The Church Militant is the visible Church here in this world which consists of the denominations, buildings, organizations that we see, it is made up of both believers and non believers. The Church Triumphant is the invisible Church made up of only believers; and not just those in this world, but those who are in the next life as well; it is the one holy catholic and apostolic Church, it is the communion of the saints that we confess in our Creeds.
I'm aware of this, but confessional Lutherans do claim to have the pure gospel, no? Why be Lutheran instead of Orthodox is what I'm asking. I could've phrased it better.

Or, why should I believe what you wrote above as opposed to what the Orthodox teach, that there's one true visible church?
 
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godenver1

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Originally coming from a charismatic environment, I was won over to Lutheran doctrine because that's where I found the Gospel to be the clearest. Specifically, in its confession that salvation is entirely from God, but damnation entirely from us.

Now, our Roman Catholic friends will certainly disagree with this, but from a Lutheran point of view, doctrinally and historically speaking, it is the Evangelical Lutheran church that is the true "Roman" church. The desire of the reformers was not to create an original church, but rather to conservatively reform and revert to the original doctrines that were once held by the early church; the apostolic faith. In this respect, both Anglicans and Lutherans can claim apostolic succession (though this can be understood in many different ways).

In short though, Lutherans confess: "That one holy Church is to continue forever. The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered.", carefully not making a claim that the Lutheran church alone is the only true church. For more info on this, I would read up on the theology of the "visible and invisible church". viz. the visible church including all members, whether true or not. And the invisible, including only true believers. Traditionally, the Roman Catholic Church reject this and identify with the invisible church (in visible form), but Lutherans hold that the Holy Church's members can be found in many different branches of Christendom, even where the Gospel is not preached clearly, or where the Sacraments are not properly understood, because salvation is not a matter of nominal membership, but correctly of God's grace, apprehended through faith.
Thanks for the insightful answer. How can I know that Lutheranism contains the apostolic faith, and not Orthodoxy? How do you settle on that question?
 
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FireDragon76

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I think that's a difficult question because Lutherans have not interacted with Eastern Orthodox a great deal during our history, especially in the area of apologetics. Pr. Jordan Cooper has written a few books on the subject. David Wagschal, a Canadian Lutheran who is formerly Orthodox himself, actually has many good critiques of Orthodoxy on his website, Under the Sun, but he's coming at it from a more modernist Lutheran perspective that owes a great deal to the theology of Gerhard Forde. He would criticize the Orthodox Church for prioritizing theosis above justification, and consequently focusing on divinization as the material principle, which often results in an inauthenticity as adherents try to reconcile a sinless church being made of sinful people.
 
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godenver1

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Thank you, Firedragon. I will check out Wagschal's website. Lutheranism is by far the most biblical and theologically accurate Protestant church. Orthodoxy is the most theologically accurate 'apostolic' church. I just have to decide between the two. May The Holy Spirit have mercy on me.
 
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grasping the after wind

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I'm aware of this, but confessional Lutherans do claim to have the pure gospel, no? Why be Lutheran instead of Orthodox is what I'm asking. I could've phrased it better.

Or, why should I believe what you wrote above as opposed to what the Orthodox teach, that there's one true visible church?

What do you mean by "the pure gospel" ? I do not think we have claimed to have some superior gospel that is purer than others. If we made such a claim we would be at a loss to explain how there could be more than one Lutheran denomination. As to why you ought to believe a thing, that is entirely up to you but I find the notion that the Church of Christ is defined simply by the presence of one particular human hierarchy to be less than convincing. As for particular belief that one denomination holds and others do not , I find it hard to believe in the idea that there is a supernatural clerical succession as there seems to me to be no evidence to support that idea. So I simply do not believe it just as you can choose to believe whatever you find believable and reject whatever you consider not worth believing. Yet, according to Paul, both of us can remain part of the Church as long as we both recognize Christ as the risen Son of the Living God and proclaim Him Lord. So why be Lutheran instead of Orthodox ? To me, that is not a question regarding being a member of the true Church as I believe adherents of either denomination can claim such membership, it is rather a question of which denomination better fits my walk with Christ. IMO the Lord knows He made us each unique and has provided for us many diverse ways to be part of His family called the Church.
 
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FireDragon76

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I don't actually think characterizing Lutheranism as Protestant is all that helpful. I see Lutheranism as being a particular interpretation of the catholic tradition. Our approach to the Bible is far more catholic than the biblicism of American Evangelicalism and many Reformed churches, which treat the Bible as more of a religious-construction set. And our spirituality is an outgrowth of medieval mysticism much moreso than the Reformed Calvinist and Arminian churches. So I see Lutheranism as more organically connected to the early Church than a Protestant historiography would suggest. We are the original "ancient-future" church.
 
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godenver1

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I don't actually think characterizing Lutheranism as Protestant is all that helpful. I see Lutheranism as being a particular interpretation of the catholic tradition. Our approach to the Bible is far more catholic than the biblicism of American Evangelicalism and many Reformed churches, which treat the Bible as more of a religious-construction set. And our spirituality is an outgrowth of medieval mysticism much moreso than the Reformed Calvinist and Arminian churches. So I see Lutheranism as more organically connected to the early Church than a Protestant historiography would suggest. We are the original "ancient-future" church.
My apologies. As someone attending an Anglican church, I can sympathise. I, too, do not like being theologically 'grouped in' with more evangelical or reformed churches (though Anglicanism can be a strange mixture of the two). I use 'Protestant' as an historically convient term. I guess what I was getting at was this: if I'm going to hold Christian Tradition as Sacred (on the same level as Scripture) then I should convert to Orthodoxy. If I'm going to assert the primacy of scripture (and thus holding and interpreting Tradition through that lens) I should convert to Lutheranism.
 
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My apologies. As someone attending an Anglican church, I can sympathise. I, too, do not like being theologically 'grouped in' with more evangelical or reformed churches (though Anglicanism can be a strange mixture of the two). I use 'Protestant' as an historically convient term. I guess what I was getting at was this: if I'm going to hold Christian Tradition as Sacred (on the same level as Scripture) then I should convert to Orthodoxy. If I'm going to assert the primacy of scripture (and thus holding and interpreting Tradition through that lens) I should convert to Lutheranism.

Some Orthodox do believe in the primacy of Scriptures, though, so it becomes more complicated.

The amount of unquestioning submission to authority that is normative in the Orthodox Church goes against western values and presents a real stumbling block to the Gospel. People in our culture are used to personal accountability and responsibility. That is one thing David Wagschal points out on his blog. It's arguably scandalous in our cultural context to hold up a particular culturally conditioned eastern manifestation of the Christian faith and declare it as the "one true Church".

Many Christians can easily get lost in that sort of "boutique religion" ghetto. The Orthodox Church has a big revolving door of folks who leave the Church in North America, and often those that do leave do not leave for an Evangelical or Catholic church, they leave to become irreligious or atheist. Religious nominalism in Orthodoxy is extremely common.
 
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grasping the after wind

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My apologies. As someone attending an Anglican church, I can sympathise. I, too, do not like being theologically 'grouped in' with more evangelical or reformed churches (though Anglicanism can be a strange mixture of the two). I use 'Protestant' as an historically convient term. I guess what I was getting at was this: if I'm going to hold Christian Tradition as Sacred (on the same level as Scripture) then I should convert to Orthodoxy. If I'm going to assert the primacy of scripture (and thus holding and interpreting Tradition through that lens) I should convert to Lutheranism.

It is perfectly reasonable to consider both Anglicans and Lutherans to be Protestant. Just because they are closer in many ways in their theology and liturgy to Catholicism than some of the other Protestant denominations doesn't change the fact that their protests against papal authority and what they considered to be incorrect practices in the Roman Church earned them the name Protestant. One may want to disassociate oneself with the beliefs and practices of some members of one's group but one cannot change the fact one belongs in that group. Protestant applies to Lutherans and Anglicans just as it does the many other denominations not affiliated with the Roman Catholic or the Orthodox church in the same way that Christian applies to the Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant members of that group.
 
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godenver1

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It is perfectly reasonable to consider both Anglicans and Lutherans to be Protestant. Just because they are closer in many ways in their theology and liturgy to Catholicism than some of the other Protestant denominations doesn't change the fact that their protests against papal authority and what they considered to be incorrect practices in the Roman Church earned them the name Protestant. One may want to disassociate oneself with the beliefs and practices of some members of one's group but one cannot change the fact one belongs in that group. Protestant applies to Lutherans and Anglicans just as it does the many other denominations not affiliated with the Roman Catholic or the Orthodox church in the same way that Christian applies to the Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant members of that group.
Historically, I agree. I think, though, that it's theologically ambiguous to lump all Protestants together. When we refer to Catholics, or Orthodox Christians, we (at least I) do so referring to a theologically unified group. That's why I generally try to avoid 'Protestant', though I sometimes use the term out of convenience, as above.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Historically, I agree. I think, though, that it's theologically ambiguous to lump all Protestants together. When we refer to Catholics, or Orthodox Christians, we (at least I) do so referring to a theologically unified group. That's why I generally try to avoid 'Protestant', though I sometimes use the term out of convenience, as above.

Why not come up with a new designation if recognizing that others one finds to have beliefs one finds incorrect belong to the same group makes one uncomfortable? Perhaps some sort of hyphenated Protestant term. Don't deny one's Protestantism simply clarify which sort of Protestant one is.
 
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The thing that really drove me to considering being Lutheran was Dietrich Bonhoeffer's theology, especially his Letters and Papers from Prison.

http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2010/12/letters-from-cell-92-part-1-new.html

Orthodoxy, on the other hand, has a tendency to retreat into romanticism and fundamentalism, when faced by modernity. I believe being a follower of Jesus should be much more people centered in the end, whereas Orthodoxy is often more about theory that often treats humanity as an abstraction. Theologies of Glory often linger beneath beautiful theological facades.
 
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Why not come up with a new designation if recognizing that others one finds to have beliefs one finds incorrect belong to the same group makes one uncomfortable? Perhaps some sort of hyphenated Protestant term. Don't deny one's Protestantism simply clarify which sort of Protestant one is.

The term Protestant is largely devoid of theological content. It's relatively meaningless. It was mostly a political slogan used to lump together Lutherans and the Reformed, who at one time barely tolerated each other. Today it can refer to anything from high church Anglicans to snake handlers in Appalachia and the Branch Davidians. I prefer to avoid it, reserving to refer to it only to those that believe the Bible is a magical book that allows the autonomous individual to construct any kind of religion they see within its pages. What many Americans think of as "Protestantism".
 
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I have always thought of the Lutheran Church as a Reformed Catholic Church. Having been both Catholic and Lutheran I can say that superficially a high or middle Lutheran Divine Service is very similar to a Catholic Mass. I know many of the theological differences, but when one attends a Lutheran church for any time it becomes clear how different the churchmanship and theology is from most of Protestantism, particularly the American version that has developed.
 
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grasping the after wind

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The term Protestant is largely devoid of theological content. It's relatively meaningless. It was mostly a political slogan used to lump together Lutherans and the Reformed, who at one time barely tolerated each other. Today it can refer to anything from high church Anglicans to snake handlers in Appalachia and the Branch Davidians. I prefer to avoid it, reserving to refer to it only to those that believe the Bible is a magical book that allows the autonomous individual to construct any kind of religion they see within its pages. What many Americans think of as "Protestantism".
And I refuse to agree to consider Protestantism in those terms.
 
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