Confession - A Roman Catholic thread

[tz620q]

Catholic Church buries limbo after centuries

Catholic Church buries limbo after centuries

So could we say that the belief in limbo is in limbo now?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Thank you. You are one of the few Catholics here who recognize and admit to the diversity of opinion within the Catholic church. In regards to Confession, there ought not to be much, if any, difference of opinion as the Catechism of the Catholic Church is much more detailed about it than other doctrines such as Purgatory.

Or it should be considered Adiaphora

 

[bbbbbbb]

Maybe Goatee was talking about a formal definition as proposed by the Church versus popular myth that is held by individuals?

Perhaps he was. However, the Catholic Church has been exceptionally vague in defining the doctrine. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, unfortunately, is of no real help in the matter. The result is that not only the laity, but the clergy hold all manner of ideas about it. Not all of them can be true because many flatly contradict others.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Or it should be considered Adiaphora

I agree entirely, but unlike most other Christian bodies, pious opinions seem to be generally anathema in the Catholic Church.

 

[tz620q]

Perhaps he was. However, the Catholic Church has been exceptionally vague in defining the doctrine. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, unfortunately, is of no real help in the matter. The result is that not only the laity, but the clergy hold all manner of ideas about it. Not all of them can be true because many flatly contradict others.

I tend to see the other side of that coin. For an institution that has existed for 2000 years, across many changes in history, culture, and geography, the Catholic Church has remained remarkably united in belief. Just looking at today's Catholic Church, you see an organization of over 1 billion people from 24 different rites of worship, speaking over a hundred languages and distributed across the globe. Yet if any of them chooses to understand the position of the Church on a specific subject, it is usually only a little study away (well at least in most of the major languages).

As far as Purgatory, it happens after death, so it is rather hard to get firm facts to show what it actually is. That alone makes for vague definitions. Just look at all the various portrayals of Heaven and we have a lot more scripture telling us what Heaven is like.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I tend to see the other side of that coin. For an institution that has existed for 2000 years, across many changes in history, culture, and geography, the Catholic Church has remained remarkably united in belief. Just looking at today's Catholic Church, you see an organization of over 1 billion people from 24 different rites of worship, speaking over a hundred languages and distributed across the globe. Yet if any of them chooses to understand the position of the Church on a specific subject, it is usually only a little study away (well at least in most of the major languages).

As far as Purgatory, it happens after death, so it is rather hard to get firm facts to show what it actually is. That alone makes for vague definitions. Just look at all the various portrayals of Heaven and we have a lot more scripture telling us what Heaven is like.

You have a fair point. In light of the fact that there are no scriptures about Purgatory, the door is wide open to any and every possible idea. Who can say if pink elephants are not even now trampling on the folks being punished for sins that God cannot or will not forgive?

 

[tz620q]

You have a fair point. In light of the fact that there are no scriptures about Purgatory, the door is wide open to any and every possible idea. Who can say if pink elephants are not even now trampling on the folks being punished for sins that God cannot or will not forgive?

You know that the Catholic Church has scripture that it uses to point to the need for Purgatory and a description by both Jesus and Paul of what it might entail. Whether you agree with us or not does not negate that there is scripture that could be used to make the case. Also this is not about God forgiving sin, it is about others forgiving us our sin. If you murder someone, God might forgive you; but will the murder victims family do the same. It doesn't take too many parole hearings to get the answer to that one. If they bind our sin, is it not bound on earth?

 

[bbbbbbb]

You know that the Catholic Church has scripture that it uses to point to the need for Purgatory and a description by both Jesus and Paul of what it might entail. Whether you agree with us or not does not negate that there is scripture that could be used to make the case. Also this is not about God forgiving sin, it is about others forgiving us our sin. If you murder someone, God might forgive you; but will the murder victims family do the same. It doesn't take too many parole hearings to get the answer to that one. If they bind our sin, is it not bound on earth?

I think you might have missed my point. My point was not that there might or might not be implications in scripture regarding a state of purgation following death, but that there is absolutely no scripture which speaks of Purgatory.

You do raise an interesting conundrum. If you lie to someone and they do not forgive you, then have they bound your sin eternally here on earth? If so, then is God able and/or willing to unbind it even though your victims will not do so?

 

[Phil 1:21]

If so, then is God able and/or willing to unbind it even though your victims will not do so?

God is sovereign.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I think you might have missed my point. My point was not that there might or might not be implications in scripture regarding a state of purgation following death, but that there is absolutely no scripture which speaks of Purgatory.

You do raise an interesting conundrum. If you lie to someone and they do not forgive you, then have they bound your sin eternally here on earth? If so, then is God able and/or willing to unbind it even though your victims will not do so?

The prodigal son was welcomed back following repentance even though his brother seemed none too forgiving; his Father was; and he was giving great reward for repenting!

 

[Goatee]

Perhaps he was. However, the Catholic Church has been exceptionally vague in defining the doctrine. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, unfortunately, is of no real help in the matter. The result is that not only the laity, but the clergy hold all manner of ideas about it. Not all of them can be true because many flatly contradict others.

Disagree

 

[Goatee]

I think you might have missed my point. My point was not that there might or might not be implications in scripture regarding a state of purgation following death, but that there is absolutely no scripture which speaks of Purgatory.

You do raise an interesting conundrum. If you lie to someone and they do not forgive you, then have they bound your sin eternally here on earth? If so, then is God able and/or willing to unbind it even though your victims will not do so?

No scripture in your eyes as a non-Catholic!

Have a read of this article:

Purgatory | Catholic Answers

 

[bbbbbbb]

The prodigal son was welcomed back following repentance even though his brother seemed none too forgiving; his Father was; and he was giving great reward for repenting!

Good point. We cannot force others to accept our repentance, but God knows and forgives for Christ's sake.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No scripture in your eyes as a non-Catholic!

Have a read of this article:

Purgatory | Catholic Answers

Thanks for the link. All it does is attack various strawmen which some individuals have created. It does not provide any scripture which directly describes Purgatory, or purgation. Thus the door remains wide open, from a biblical perspective, concerning what this could be.

 

[bbbbbbb]

*staff edit* state precisely where scripture describes in any detail a place called Purgatory. My contention is that the word is absent from scripture (as you will rebut is "trinity"). Hell is described in plentiful detail in scripture, as is heaven, the lake of fire, and other such things, but I am unaware where the torments and agonies of Purgatory are described in detail. If they are, then there are multitudes in the Catholic Church today who are being seriously misled because they sincerely believe that there is no such place as Purgatory and that there is no torment or agony to be suffered for a specified length of time known only to God in that place; rather, they assuredly believe in the process of purgation in which the traces of temporal sin are sweetly washed from the faithful Catholic by the rich mercy and love of Jesus Christ, the Lord.

 

[Goatee]

Please help remove my blinkers and state precisely where scripture describes in any detail a place called Purgatory. My contention is that the word is absent from scripture (as you will rebut is "trinity"). Hell is described in plentiful detail in scripture, as is heaven, the lake of fire, and other such things, but I am unaware where the torments and agonies of Purgatory are described in detail. If they are, then there are multitudes in the Catholic Church today who are being seriously misled because they sincerely believe that there is no such place as Purgatory and that there is no torment or agony to be suffered for a specified length of time known only to God in that place; rather, they assuredly believe in the process of purgation in which the traces of temporal sin are sweetly washed from the faithful Catholic by the rich mercy and love of Jesus Christ, the Lord.

*staff edit* Just because the 'word' purgatory is not literally mentioned does not mean it does not exist.

Read the link I posted above. Some information for you old buddy.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Please help remove my blinkers and state precisely where scripture describes in any detail a place called Purgatory.

It doesn't, and all the eisegesis in the world from "Catholic Answers" won't change that fact.

That article reminds me of a lesson one of my research professors taught long ago. He had the class read a "scholarly" article and comment on the validity of it's position. Many in the class stated the position put forth in the article was valid because it contained multiple citations. The professor asked if anyone had checked the actual citations. None had, and upon further examination we discovered that the citations didn't really claim what the author stated they did. As a matter of fact, some flatly contradicted the author's position.

This is why I refuse to believe any article about, or catechism of, faith without reading the actual scriptures (and surrounding context). All too often people accept what their itching ears desire because someone followed it up with a scriptural citation in parenthesis. Lazy faith is a road map to heresy.

 

[Major1]

The sacrament of confession, although not restricted by any means to the Roman Catholic Church, has found its development in a unique way within that denomination. It is addressed at some length in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Here are just a handful of paragraphs -

1424 It is called the sacrament of confession, since the disclosure or confession of sins to a priest is an essential element of this sacrament. In a profound sense it is also a "confession" - acknowledgment and praise - of the holiness of God and of his mercy toward sinful man.

It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since by the priest's sacramental absolution God grants the penitent "pardon and peace."

It is called the sacrament of Reconciliation, because it imparts to the sinner the love of God who reconciles: "Be reconciled to God." He who lives by God's merciful love is ready to respond to the Lord's call: "Go; first be reconciled to your brother."

1484 "Individual, integral confession and absolution remain the only ordinary way for the faithful to reconcile themselves with God and the Church, unless physical or moral impossibility excuses from this kind of confession." There are profound reasons for this. Christ is at work in each of the sacraments. He personally addresses every sinner: "My son, your sins are forgiven." He is the physician tending each one of the sick who need him to cure them. He raises them up and reintegrates them into fraternal communion. Personal confession is thus the form most expressive of reconciliation with God and with the Church.

1456 Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance: "All mortal sins of which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious must be recounted by them in confession, even if they are most secret and have been committed against the last two precepts of the Decalogue; for these sins sometimes wound the soul more grievously and are more dangerous than those which are committed openly."
When Christ's faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness for remission through the mediation of the priest, "for if the sick person is too ashamed to show his wound to the doctor, the medicine cannot heal what it does not know."
The question of this thread is - Where are the lines of people at Catholic churches prior to mass waiting for confession?

When I was young, each Catholic church of the ten large parishes in my otherwise small city was staffed by at least four priests who regularly heard confessions. Each church had multiple confessionals for this purpose and they were kept busy.

Today, the parishes are, if anything, numerically larger following the closure and consolidation of many parishes. Of the surviving parishes some do not even have a full-time priest and the rest which do, count themselves fortunate to have one individual priest. Whereas in my childhood there were typically three or more masses on Sunday, today a Catholic church typically must make do with one Sunday mass a perhaps a Saturday evening mass, if they are fortunate.

Now, the Catholic Church is clear that one cannot take communion unless one has met the requirements, which includes undergoing the sacrament of confession. If a church (at least the ones in my neck of the woods) has 1,000 faithful parishioners, all of whom attend weekly mass and who take communion, the time required to hear their confessions would not be insignificant. Even at the breakneck speed of five minutes per person, it would require 5,000 minutes for the priest to complete the sacrament for his flock. For those who are curious, that is well in excess of 80 hours, which is more than three days with no breaks for eating, sleeping, or other physical necessities.

Now, some may say that my example is too large. Okay, so if there are only 100 communicants that still would require 500 minutes, which is well in excess of 8 hours - with no coffee breaks, bathroom breaks, or meal breaks.

That leaves several possible reasons, which I have handily provided in my attached poll.

I am absolutely certain that I will be accused of not providing a reason that some can find acceptable, but I don't claim to be the best pollmaker at CF, or, for that matter, even a good one. So, if you don't like my choices, then don't respond to it.

The poll says it all doesn't it????

61.6 % said I do not know/I do not care!!!!

Why talking to a Catholic, Isn't that pretty much what you see as a response? Most do not care and the rest just do not know????

Why is a Catholic a Catholic?

Usually it is because Mon and Dad took them as a matter of habit when they were young.

Choices become habits, and habits become destiny.

 

[Major1]

Yeh, gotta beware of trusting that divine revelation stuff when deciding doctrine.

Agreed. Way to much to called church doctrine has come from a man who said...........
"God spoke to me and said........".

 

[Major1]

Not necessarily. I have met more than my fair share of Catholics who have insisted that they are not sinners.

So have I. I have met a lot of Pentecostals as well since that is a Word of Faith doctrine.