Confessing your sins to a priest? ( Or other authority)

[GreekOrthodox]

I was baptized in a Church that teaches that, before you get baptised you have to go before some of the elders of the church and 'confess your sins'. For days, I had been racking my brains to remember every sin I have ever commited because I was scared that if I missed anything it would not be forgiven. Of course, that is impossible, as evidenced by the fact that I was still remembering stuff well after my 'confession'. I was standing in the baptismal, still remembering sins from my past and fighting hard to ignore them in order to 'have a clean conscience' at that moment.
What I'm trying to say is: please stop for a second and realize that practices like public confession can be extremely traumatic to some, especially if they already have mental health issues or are predisposed to them. Unless they are essential to salvation (personally, I have not found this in the Bible), use wisdom and understanding and don't place more burdens on believer than God has asked for.

Be blessed.

Morning, at least in Orthodox, Catholic, Oriental, Lutheran and Anglican churches, these are all private confessions. Sometimes, I've gone to confession just for one particular sin rather than a checklist of every sin. That list would get rather long

 

[abs257]

Morning, at least in Orthodox, Catholic, Oriental, Lutheran and Anglican churches, these are all private confessions. Sometimes, I've gone to confession just for one particular sin rather than a checklist of every sin. That list would get rather long

the point isn't whether it's private, to a priest, or public, to the whole congregation. the point is whether confession to another human being is necessary for the forgiveness of sin. you said that you don't go to confession with a 'checklist of every sin'. are those sins forgiven or not? is one sin more 'grievous' than others to neccesitate this type of confession? how much does the act of you confessing your sin to another person contribute to the forgiveness of it? how do you know which sins need to be confessed to another human being and which one don't? is this rooted in the Bible as a requirement from God or denominational 'tradition'?

 

[GreekOrthodox]

the point isn't whether it's private, to a priest, or public, to the whole congregation. the point is whether confession to another human being is necessary for the forgiveness of sin. you said that you don't go to confession with a 'checklist of every sin'. are those sins forgiven or not? is one sin more 'grievous' than others to neccesitate this type of confession? how much does the act of you confessing your sin to another person contribute to the forgiveness of it? how do you know which sins need to be confessed to another human being and which one don't? is this rooted in the Bible as a requirement from God or denominational 'tradition'?

Morning,
As far as I know, most confessions include "known and unknown". The Orthodox format is to kneel before the icon of Christ (seen to the right of my profile picture) and confess to God with the priest serving as a witness. In preparation, I will read Psalm 51, which is David's great confession of his sin with Bathsheba.

The Orthodox absolution has two forms:

“May God Who pardoned David through Nathan the Prophet when he confessed his sins, Peter who wept bitterly for his denial, the Harlot weeping at His feet, the Publican and the Prodigal; May our same Merciful and loving God Pardon your every transgression, which you have committed, whether by word or deed or thought. For You are He who has the power to forgive sins, Christ our God, and to You we offer up glory together with Your eternal Father and Your holy, good, and life-creating Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen.”

“Let us pray to the Lord. O Lord and god of the salvation of Your servants, gracious, and merciful, and long-suffering, Who is grieved at our misdeeds, Who desires not the death of the sinner, but rather that he should be converted and live, have mercy now upon Your servant (handmaid) N.; grant him (her) true penitence, and the pardon and forgiveness of sins; remit to him (her) all transgressions, both voluntary and involuntary; reconcile and unite him (her) with Your Holy Church through Jesus Christ Our Lord, with Whom be power and glory ascribed unto You, now and ever, and to ages of ages. Amen.”

 

[abs257]

Morning,
As far as I know, most confessions include "known and unknown" and the Orthodox absolution has two forms:

“May God Who pardoned David through Nathan the Prophet when he confessed his sins, Peter who wept bitterly for his denial, the Harlot weeping at His feet, the Publican and the Prodigal; May our same Merciful and loving God Pardon your every transgression, which you have committed, whether by word or deed or thought. For You are He who has the power to forgive sins, Christ our God, and to You we offer up glory together with Your eternal Father and Your holy, good, and life-creating Spirit, now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen.”

“Let us pray to the Lord. O Lord and god of the salvation of Your servants, gracious, and merciful, and long-suffering, Who is grieved at our misdeeds, Who desires not the death of the sinner, but rather that he should be converted and live, have mercy now upon Your servant (handmaid) N.; grant him (her) true penitence, and the pardon and forgiveness of sins; remit to him (her) all transgressions, both voluntary and involuntary; reconcile and unite him (her) with Your Holy Church through Jesus Christ Our Lord, with Whom be power and glory ascribed unto You, now and ever, and to ages of ages. Amen.”

I understand that some denominations practice this. That is not my question.

My question is: since Jesus Christ is our mediator between us and God, and, supposedly, our sins have already been paid in full by His sacrifice on the cross, how does confessing your sins to a priest and the priest praying for you contribute to the forgiveness of said sins?

In other words, is Jesus dying on the cross not enough to pay for our sins, thus we need to do something extra, like confessing to a priest? Do we need a second mediator between us and God, thus the priest is necessary? My question is not whether some denominations practice this. My question is why do some denominations practice this? Is it something based on the Bible or is it something that people have come up with along the way?

Personally, I have found no such request or commandment in the Bible. As far as I am aware, whenever Jesus forgave someone's sin, He always said 'go in peace, your sins are forgiven' or 'go and sin no more' or something along those lines. I have never read about Him requesting more from anyone.

I think there are valid reasons for confessing certain sins to someone else. It could be for accountability purposes (for example, if you are struggling with inappropriate content addiction, you may ask a trusted brother or sister to be your accountability partner). Or, we know that love is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, so, if you indeed love your brother as you love yourself and you've somehow wronged them, the loving thing to do would be to seek forgiveness and reconciliation from them, not your priest.

But I have not found confession to another persion to be a requirement for forgiveness from God. If that was the case, it would mean that your forgiveness of sin, thus your salvation, is based on your works and not on God's grace. You may disagree with such a 'protestant' view, but that is what I have found.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

James 5:16 "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working."

1 John 1: 9: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” The word confess has an oral/verbal or proclamation meaning.

St. Paul describes his ministry as one of reconciliation of sinners (indicating a confession of sins of in some method):
2 Corinthians 5: 18: “All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation . . .”

 

[abs257]

James 5:16 "Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working."

1 John 1: 9: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” The word confess has an oral/verbal or proclamation meaning.

St. Paul describes his ministry as one of reconciliation of sinners (indicating a confession of sins of in some method):
2 Corinthians 5: 18: “All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation . . .”

actually, as far as I know, the word that is translated as 'confess' in John 1:9, has the meaning of 'agreeing with God' in the original Greek. so the meaning of the verse is not that we need to tell someone about our sin in order to be forgiven by God, but to agree that something is sin and repent of it. what I mean is that, if you find out that something is sin, you cannot be stubborn and claim 'no, this isn't sin, therefore I'm righteous before God', instead you must agree with Him that 'yes, this is sin, therefore I need His forgiveness'. I cannot remember where I've read this, but they were exegeting the entire paragraph, not isolating the word 'confess' and drawing conclusions from there. but even if that is not the case, the verse doesn't say 'confess to someone other than God', so I would still be wary of adding to the Bible.

in 2 Corinthians 5:18, you said it yourself. just read the verse: "All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation". it says plainly that God reconciled us to Himself through Christ, not through Paul, not through your priest, pastor or any other religious figure. I would have to study the passage in more depth, but the ministry of reconciliation that Paul mentions could well mean the ministry of preaching the Gospel, that through Christ we are reconcilled to God.

the first verse you've linked is probably the closest the Bible gets to the practice of confessing to a priest that some denominations practice. however, even that verse isn't, in my opinion, about forgiveness from God, but rather about carrying each other's burdens, and I've already given an example of where such a confession might be of help.

 

[Paidiske]

the point isn't whether it's private, to a priest, or public, to the whole congregation. the point is whether confession to another human being is necessary for the forgiveness of sin. you said that you don't go to confession with a 'checklist of every sin'. are those sins forgiven or not? is one sin more 'grievous' than others to neccesitate this type of confession? how much does the act of you confessing your sin to another person contribute to the forgiveness of it? how do you know which sins need to be confessed to another human being and which one don't? is this rooted in the Bible as a requirement from God or denominational 'tradition'?

I think your questions hinge on a misunderstanding. It is not that confession is necessary for forgiveness, but that it can be pastorally useful in helping someone have confidence that they are truly forgiven.

actually, as far as I know, the word that is translated as 'confess' in John 1:9, has the meaning of 'agreeing with God' in the original Greek.

I think you probably mean 1 John 1:9? The verb is homologeo, and it has a range of meanings. The most basic is "to speak the same language." But it can mean confess or acknowledge in the sort of sense often meant by Christian confession. Given that the object of the verb in that verse is "our sins" it seems to me that a meaning closer to confess or acknowledge would be necessary to make sense of the verse as a whole. Of course, John does not specify a particular form or method.

 

[abs257]

I think your questions hinge on a misunderstanding. It is not that confession is necessary for forgiveness, but that it can be pastorally useful in helping someone have confidence that they are truly forgiven.

I agree with this. For me, this form of confession had the opposite effect, but I can see how it can give someone assurance if that person has (wrongly, in my opinion) been taught that this form of confession was necessary for forgiveness. I would hope that a pastor would rather take the time and explain to them that Jesus is the mediator between us and God, and it's Him dying on the cross that has bought our salvation, but I can see how 'humoring' (for lack of a better word) someone in this way can be helpful.

I think you probably mean 1 John 1:9? The verb is homologeo, and it has a range of meanings. The most basic is "to speak the same language." But it can mean confess or acknowledge in the sort of sense often meant by Christian confession. Given that the object of the verb in that verse is "our sins" it seems to me that a meaning closer to confess or acknowledge would be necessary to make sense of the verse as a whole. Of course, John does not specify a particular form or method.

Yes, that's what I meant. I think when you read the entire passage, you see that it is John's response to someone who might have claimed that they are sinless, therefore they have no need to 'confess anything'. Since we know that there is none without sin, this is, obviously, wrong, so each of us first has to first acknowledge before God that we are, indeed, sinners, and then he will forgive us and cleanse us from all sin. I can't remember where I have read this, but when you read the whole passage, not just verse 9, it makes sense (to me at least).

But, as you say, John doesn't prescribe a confession method in any case. In fact, verse 7 makes clear, once again, that it is Jesus' blood that cleanses us of all sin:

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

If we agree that the wages of sin is death, and we agree that it is Jesus, not John, not Paul, not any priest or pastor that has died for our sin, and that Jesus is alive and acts as an advocate between us and the Father as 1 John 2:1 claims, then I personally don't believe that we need a secondary advocate between us and the Father, as some claim.

As I've said before, I believe confessing your sins to another person could be beneficial (or even indicated) in some instances, I just don't believe that it is necessary to restore your standing before God.

 

[Fervent]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I think what I have to add will be useful.

I was under the impression that Jesus dying on the cross was the payment for all my sin and all parts of my sin. If that is not the case, then how much am I contributing to the forgiveness of my sins when I confess them to someone else? 1%? 5%? 10%? If to be saved essentialy means to be reconciled to God, i.e. to have no sin before God, how much am I contributing to my salvation when I confess to someone else?

I was baptized in a Church that teaches that, before you get baptised you have to go before some of the elders of the church and 'confess your sins'. For days, I had been racking my brains to remember every sin I have ever commited because I was scared that if I missed anything it would not be forgiven. Of course, that is impossible, as evidenced by the fact that I was still remembering stuff well after my 'confession'. I was standing in the baptismal, still remembering sins from my past and fighting hard to ignore them in order to 'have a clean conscience' at that moment.

The entire experience was so traumatic that I'm fairly confident that it's what pushed me into OCD, more precisely, primarily scrupulosity or religous-OCD (I seem to suffer from three different types of obsessions, the main one being scrupulosity). Maybe it would have happened anyway, since OCD runs in my family, but since then (around 10 months) life has pretty much been a living hell. Not only that, but since then I have also found out that some of the sins I 'confessed' that night, and why it was so traumatic, were probably due to other mental conditions I suffer from. I'm not saying this to claim that mental illness is an excuse, or licence, for sin, but we're talking about things that, now that I am more aware of what I'm probably suffering from (I am phrasing it this way because I have not been 'officially diagnosed' by a psychiatrist yet - I'm only basing this on my own research into why I might be the way I am), don't seem as grievous. Obviously, I'm not going to go into more detail than this on this platform, but if you knew what I'm talking about it would make sense to you.

I've been trying to make sense of what has been happening to me and I'm fairly convinced that everything that has happened to me is somehow God's hand at work in my life, so I'm trying really hard to forgive the people that have caused this to me, but it's not easy at all.

I don't wish this illness to anyone. It has caused so much grief, anger, resentment and backsliding. There were so many times when I just wanted to stop existing. There were so many times when I simply stopped believing and returned to the world because I couldn't see a reason to put up with it anymore (in fact, I'm in such a situation right now).

But, if what I think it's happening is true, then, hopefully, one day, by the Grace of God I will be somewhat normal again.

What I'm trying to say is: please stop for a second and realize that practices like public confession can be extremely traumatic to some, especially if they already have mental health issues or are predisposed to them. Unless they are essential to salvation (personally, I have not found this in the Bible), use wisdom and understanding and don't place more burdens on believer than God has asked for.

Be blessed.

What you speak of is definitely an unhealthy form of confession, as the purpose of confession is not absolution. Understanding it as confess in order to be forgiven or that your salvation somehow hinges upon your confession are both lies that prevent a healthy practice. Confession is not about what you have done wrong or even your guilt for that matter, but a recognition of what Christ has forgiven you of as a means of glorifying Him. Confession is about recognizing your freedom, that there is no need to hide in the shadows because you have committed wrongs but that you may boast of your Savior who continually refreshes you with His riches.

As for your struggle with suspected mental illness, what has stopped you from getting it diagnosed and properly medicated/treated?

 

[abs257]

What you speak of is definitely an unhealthy form of confession, as the purpose of confession is not absolution. Understanding it as confess in order to be forgiven or that your salvation somehow hinges upon your confession are both lies that prevent a healthy practice. Confession is not about what you have done wrong or even your guilt for that matter, but a recognition of what Christ has forgiven you of as a means of glorifying Him. Confession is about recognizing your freedom, that there is no need to hide in the shadows because you have committed wrongs but that you may boast of your Savior who continually refreshes you with His riches.

As for your struggle with suspected mental illness, what has stopped you from getting it diagnosed and properly medicated/treated?

I agree with some of your points. If someone wants to share the work God is doing in their life and say 'I was slave to this, that and the other, and by the Grace of God I'm not only forgiven, but God has also delivered me from these sins' then yeah, they should feel free to do so. From what I know, that's the sort of confession the first Christians practiced. But no one should feel forced or coerced to do this. No one should feel like they have to take a laundry list of their sins and struggles to, what are, basically, strangers, 'because it's what we do'.

By the way, since then, I have talked to someone from that church and they said that 'they never intended to make it sound like it's part of forgiveness and I just understood wrong'. Maybe they're right and I did understand wrong, but I definitely felt coerced into it. They said 'we want to leave these things buried in the past' and 'it's what they did in the Bible, so we have to do it too' (by the way, the example from the Bible they used to justify the practice was John's baptism, which is not the same baptism we practice today, since, at the time John was baptizing, Jesus hadn't been sacrificed yet so His blood that cleanses us from all sin hadn't been spilt yet) which to me, in the mental state I already was in, sounded like if I hadn't done it, I would have not been forgiven because 'I wasn't following the Bible'. I don't know, perhaps it is my fault for not asking more questions... but what's done is done and we can't turn back time. I'm trying to not hold grudges and just forgive and let go, but I'm unable to do so yet. Hopefully one day, by the Grace of God I will get there.

My mental ilness... well, I think there are two separate issues here.

The first is the OCD. I know I have this because I fit the description of scrupulosity (plus the two other subtypes) to a T, although I think now I actually have more of a 'pure O' condition, as in I still get the obsessions, but not the compulsions that much any more. I have actually tried to get counselling through FaithfulCounselling, but it didn't work out.

The reason I'm not seeking further help on this, whether through counselling or medication is because I believe my condition has been allowed by God in order to teach me some things. You see, I grew up in a Christian family, but I didn't want to be one of those 'Christians' that are only a Christian because 'it's what we are'. Although I did probably believe that God existed, I wanted that, if I ever was to follow Him, it would be because I wanted to, not because my family was Christian or whatever. The first step in this direction was in March of last year. It was quite a difficult time in my life and one evening, I just realized that, even though I was running away from God, He had always been faithful and helped me all along my life. I just couldn't keep going like that any more, so from that evening 'I became a Christian' (or so I thought). I started to read the Bible, to pray, fight sin... all of those things I thought made you a Christian. I decided to get baptized (that's what we Christians do, right?) yet I still didn't know that salvation is through Christ alone. I had some vague notion that Jesus died for my sins, but in my mind, if I kept up like that and went to church and read my Bible every day and so on and so forth, I would be saved. But the way things worked, my OCD got triggered and, for a while afterwards I was stuck in a state where I believed that I had to make up for all my past sins. I was contacting people from my past, apologizing etc. I was 'making amends'. I went like this until I could no more: as soon as I 'fixed' one issue, I would remember two more. I simply broke down and prayed 'I can't do this anymore'. Soon afterwards I ended up in a church where, 'as if by coincidence' they were starting a series of sermons about the cross, and the pastor explained everything about what our sin debt is, how it has been paid by Jesus dying on the cross and so on. Although I had been in a Christian background for almost 27 years, it was the first time I was hearing and understanding the Gospel. And this is only part of what God has done in my life through my illness. Had I not been ill, I probably would have kept going like I was, thinking that, as long as I was 'good enough a Christian', I would be saved and go to Heaven. This is the reason why I don't seek help with my OCD anymore. I have seen God working through it in my life and I believe that, when He's acomplished His purpose with it, I will be healed. I don't think He's done yet, because, even though I know these things now, I still have doubts and uncertainty, mainly because of what has happened. This is also why I'm trying to not blame the people at that church and hold them accountable: if God has allowed it to happen for His purpose, then they were only used by Him. It's still hard and I'm not there yet.

The second issue is, I believe, that I am somewhere on the autism spectrum. I think I have some form of Aspergers, which makes me not understand and see relationships and human interactions as 'normal people' would. I won't go into detail, because it's too embarrasing, but some of the sins I had to 'confess' that evening may be related to this. I also think I have some sort of developmental or personality disorder, most likely ASPD or at least sociopathic tendencies (you need to have at least three characteristics of sociopathy to be diagnosed with ASPD, and I could only really see two in myself). I know that I probably suffer from these two issues because, for a while I kept wondering 'why am I like this' and, if I remember correctly, I even prayed about it, and then, one day, a thought just popped into my head 'what if I'm this', and when I looked up symptoms and such for the two, it made sense. I would like to get officially diagnosed for these two, to at least know for sure, but with the pandemic and everything else happening in my life it just has never been a priority. There is also no 'cure' for them and I don't want to get therapy in any case (now that I know, it's easier to manage them), so I'm just not in a hurry.

Sorry for the long message. I hope it makes sense. Be blessed.

 

[Fervent]

I agree with some of your points. If someone wants to share the work God is doing in their life and say 'I was slave to this, that and the other, and by the Grace of God I'm not only forgiven, but God has also delivered me from these sins' then yeah, they should feel free to do so. From what I know, that's the sort of confession the first Christians practiced. But no one should feel forced or coerced to do this. No one should feel like they have to take a laundry list of their sins and struggles to, what are, basically, strangers, 'because it's what we do'.

By the way, since then, I have talked to someone from that church and they said that 'they never intended to make it sound like it's part of forgiveness and I just understood wrong'. Maybe they're right and I did understand wrong, but I definitely felt coerced into it. They said 'we want to leave these things buried in the past' and 'it's what they did in the Bible, so we have to do it too' (by the way, the example from the Bible they used to justify the practice was John's baptism, which is not the same baptism we practice today, since, at the time John was baptizing, Jesus hadn't been sacrificed yet so His blood that cleanses us from all sin hadn't been spilt yet) which to me, in the mental state I already was in, sounded like if I hadn't done it, I would have not been forgiven because 'I wasn't following the Bible'. I don't know, perhaps it is my fault for not asking more questions... but what's done is done and we can't turn back time. I'm trying to not hold grudges and just forgive and let go, but I'm unable to do so yet. Hopefully one day, by the Grace of God I will get there.

My mental ilness... well, I think there are two separate issues here.

The first is the OCD. I know I have this because I fit the description of scrupulosity (plus the two other subtypes) to a T, although I think now I actually have more of a 'pure O' condition, as in I still get the obsessions, but not the compulsions that much any more. I have actually tried to get counselling through FaithfulCounselling, but it didn't work out.

The reason I'm not seeking further help on this, whether through counselling or medication is because I believe my condition has been allowed by God in order to teach me some things. You see, I grew up in a Christian family, but I didn't want to be one of those 'Christians' that are only a Christian because 'it's what we are'. Although I did probably believe that God existed, I wanted that, if I ever was to follow Him, it would be because I wanted to, not because my family was Christian or whatever. The first step in this direction was in March of last year. It was quite a difficult time in my life and one evening, I just realized that, even though I was running away from God, He had always been faithful and helped me all along my life. I just couldn't keep going like that any more, so from that evening 'I became a Christian' (or so I thought). I started to read the Bible, to pray, fight sin... all of those things I thought made you a Christian. I decided to get baptized (that's what we Christians do, right?) yet I still didn't know that salvation is through Christ alone. I had some vague notion that Jesus died for my sins, but in my mind, if I kept up like that and went to church and read my Bible every day and so on and so forth, I would be saved. But the way things worked, my OCD got triggered and, for a while afterwards I was stuck in a state where I believed that I had to make up for all my past sins. I was contacting people from my past, apologizing etc. I was 'making amends'. I went like this until I could no more: as soon as I 'fixed' one issue, I would remember two more. I simply broke down and prayed 'I can't do this anymore'. Soon afterwards I ended up in a church where, 'as if by coincidence' they were starting a series of sermons about the cross, and the pastor explained everything about what our sin debt is, how it has been paid by Jesus dying on the cross and so on. Although I had been in a Christian background for almost 27 years, it was the first time I was hearing and understanding the Gospel. And this is only part of what God has done in my life through my illness. Had I not been ill, I probably would have kept going like I was, thinking that, as long as I was 'good enough a Christian', I would be saved and go to Heaven. This is the reason why I don't seek help with my OCD anymore. I have seen God working through it in my life and I believe that, when He's acomplished His purpose with it, I will be healed. I don't think He's done yet, because, even though I know these things now, I still have doubts and uncertainty, mainly because of what has happened. This is also why I'm trying to not blame the people at that church and hold them accountable: if God has allowed it to happen for His purpose, then they were only used by Him. It's still hard and I'm not there yet.

The second issue is, I believe, that I am somewhere on the autism spectrum. I think I have some form of Aspergers, which makes me not understand and see relationships and human interactions as 'normal people' would. I won't go into detail, because it's too embarrasing, but some of the sins I had to 'confess' that evening may be related to this. I also think I have some sort of developmental or personality disorder, most likely ASPD or at least sociopathic tendencies (you need to have at least three characteristics of sociopathy to be diagnosed with ASPD, and I could only really see two in myself). I know that I probably suffer from these two issues because, for a while I kept wondering 'why am I like this' and, if I remember correctly, I even prayed about it, and then, one day, a thought just popped into my head 'what if I'm this', and when I looked up symptoms and such for the two, it made sense. I would like to get officially diagnosed for these two, to at least know for sure, but with the pandemic and everything else happening in my life it just has never been a priority. There is also no 'cure' for them and I don't want to get therapy in any case (now that I know, it's easier to manage them), so I'm just not in a hurry.

Sorry for the long message. I hope it makes sense. Be blessed.

I appreciate your candor, and agree that no one should feel forced or coerced into making confession. Ultimately, Christ brings freedom and so nothing should be done out of a sense of obligation/coercion.

As for your struggles, I wouldn't chalk it up to God teaching you through the disorder. As an individual who struggles with bi-polar disorder, I have seen how God uses the weaknesses in our lives to teach us. Yet it is simply a medical condition, and so neglecting treatment is not the wise course of action. Would you leave cancer untreated because God uses it to teach?

 

[abs257]

I appreciate your candor, and agree that no one should feel forced or coerced into making confession. Ultimately, Christ brings freedom and so nothing should be done out of a sense of obligation/coercion.

As for your struggles, I wouldn't chalk it up to God teaching you through the disorder. As an individual who struggles with bi-polar disorder, I have seen how God uses the weaknesses in our lives to teach us. Yet it is simply a medical condition, and so neglecting treatment is not the wise course of action. Would you leave cancer untreated because God uses it to teach?

It's more complicated than that. It's quite a long story and I don't really want to tell everything here and now (maybe I'll put my entire story on paper one day), but I think it's more than just Him teaching me about salvation. I've noticed that the main lesson I have been receiving through all this is that I must rely on God for everything: from my salvation, to my healing (of the OCD) to my livelihood and everything in between. Whenever I've tried seeking help outside of God for my OCD, it just seemed like I was hitting closed doors. But when I prayed and cried out to God, He has responded and alleviated the issue. For example, one night I prayed and I simply said 'I can't do this anymore'. The next morning the intensity of my obsessions were down by, probably, 50% and not only did they stay there, but actually my situation has improved since. I reckon that I am now at about 10% intensity, in that I still get them, but they're quite faint and much easier to ignore. I'm not saying that this is the case for everyone with OCD: I do believe that treatment, whether through therapy or medication, is the right way to go in some cases. All I'm saying that, in my case, the Lord will complete His healing once He can't use this for teaching anymore. And if I'm wrong and it's not what's happening it doesn't matter - I can always seek treatment later if that turns out to be the case. But right now, since my obsessions are down 90% and it's very manageable, I see no reason to seek help anywhere else - I'd rather wait and see where God takes me.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I understand that some denominations practice this. That is not my question.

My question is: since Jesus Christ is our mediator between us and God, and, supposedly, our sins have already been paid in full by His sacrifice on the cross, how does confessing your sins to a priest and the priest praying for you contribute to the forgiveness of said sins?

In other words, is Jesus dying on the cross not enough to pay for our sins, thus we need to do something extra, like confessing to a priest? Do we need a second mediator between us and God, thus the priest is necessary? My question is not whether some denominations practice this. My question is why do some denominations practice this? Is it something based on the Bible or is it something that people have come up with along the way?

Personally, I have found no such request or commandment in the Bible. As far as I am aware, whenever Jesus forgave someone's sin, He always said 'go in peace, your sins are forgiven' or 'go and sin no more' or something along those lines. I have never read about Him requesting more from anyone.

I think there are valid reasons for confessing certain sins to someone else. It could be for accountability purposes (for example, if you are struggling with inappropriate content addiction, you may ask a trusted brother or sister to be your accountability partner). Or, we know that love is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, so, if you indeed love your brother as you love yourself and you've somehow wronged them, the loving thing to do would be to seek forgiveness and reconciliation from them, not your priest.

But I have not found confession to another persion to be a requirement for forgiveness from God. If that was the case, it would mean that your forgiveness of sin, thus your salvation, is based on your works and not on God's grace. You may disagree with such a 'protestant' view, but that is what I have found.

Here's the question: Is our salvation merely an instantaneous moment, or is it a continuing, always-present reality that God is at work accomplishing in our lives?

To provide an example: Both Lutherans and Reformed agree that we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, on Christ's account alone; and that this justification is a "forensic" justification--we are declared just (righteous) before God on account of the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, which we receive passively through faith (which is itself God's gift).

My understanding of the Reformed position is that justification is a specific moment, the moment when we first received faith.

Lutherans, however, understand that justification isn't merely the first moment we received faith, but is the continuing justifying work of God's grace, God is continually declaring us just on Christ's account, and it is through faith which God is continually giving and working in us. Faith is not a moment of a change of opinion about certain points of religious dogma; rather faith is God's work in us--His gift to us--by which He orients us toward Himself, that the unbelieving heart of stone is transformed into a believing heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26). It is the renewal of God's grace which He is constantly granting to us, constantly working in us through faith.

That is why, for example, we receive real forgiveness of sins in the Lord's Supper, it is not merely a reminder of what Christ did for us; but actually is--by way we cannot possibly understand by reason--the body and blood of Christ, broken for us, shed for us. For the forgiveness of our sins. Thus we do not merely receive a reminder of forgiveness, we receive that forgiveness really and truly--because what we receive in the Supper is Jesus Christ, His body and blood broken and shed for you and me.

In the same way, when a pastor exercises the ministry of the Keys (Matthew 16:19, John 20:22-23), by proclaiming the forgiveness of sins, it is real forgiveness. Not because pastors have some magical sin-forgiving power, but because the pastor proclaims God's word: It is God's forgiveness, it is the forgiveness of sins wrought by Christ, which we receive continually from God as pure grace, through faith. So that we are renewed day by day. It is never about us becoming more forgiven, or more righteous; it is the same forgiveness, the same righteousness--continually given. It is a now-reality--right now God is saving you, right now God is loving you, right now God is justifying you by His grace, through faith which you have received from Him.

So when we confess our sins, we have a faithful and just God who forgives us all our sins--on Christ's account alone. The forgiveness we have at Calvary is ours through faith--and God is always at work, sustaining us, sustaining and nourishing us, working faith in us, by which we are justified freely, apart from our works. And God works faith, works forgiveness, works grace through Word and Sacrament. That is why St. Timothy is told to "preach the word in and out of season", that's Timothy's vocation as a pastor, to be a preacher of the word, rightly dividing the word of truth. That's the pastoral responsibility: to preach the Law unto repentance, and to preach the Gospel of forgiveness of our sins. That's why we invest pastors with the responsibility of pastoring--preaching the word, administering the Sacraments, being the servant of Christ and the word of Christ for the benefit of the whole Church.

That's why pastors preach, that's why pastors administer the Sacraments, that's why pastors hear confessions and pronounce God's forgiveness. Because that is the responsibility which the Church places upon them, for good order.

After all, God cares about good order in the Church (1 Corinthians 14:33). That is why some have been called to be pastors, teachers, evangelists, etc. There are many gifts, many talents, many ways to be a Christian. Not everyone is a pastor, not everyone is a teacher, not everyone is a hospital nurse or a road construction worker either. And each of those is an equally valid holy vocation in Christ. As is being a husband, a wife, a father, a mother, a brother, a sister, a cousin, an aunt, or a next door neighbor.

This is also why pastors are historically trained. The first pastors, the Apostles themselves, had successor pastors--people who were very close to the Apostles, or who learned from the Apostles themselves. Pastors were sometimes nominated by a predecessor, other times chosen by other prominent pastors in an area, or in some cases became a pastor by popular demand and the choice of the local congregations (the most famous example of that I can think of is the 4th century St. Ambrose, who had no ambition of becoming a member of the clergy, but was unanimously chosen by the Christians of Milan to be their bishop). The Church operating through this pastoral ministry, that everyone might hear the word, and the proper "division of the word of truth"; that the Sacraments would be faithfully administered; and that each congregation be continually hearing God's word, confessing God's word, and believing God's word. So that each and every one of us might be equipped to live out our Christian vocations out int he world--as a people nourished and sustained by God's word and grace, giving us the tools and equipment by which to be Christ's disciples among the nations, walking in the Holy Spirit, by faith, for good works (Ephesians 2:10)

-CryptoLutheran

 

[abs257]

Here's the question: Is our salvation merely an instantaneous moment, or is it a continuing, always-present reality that God is at work accomplishing in our lives?

To provide an example: Both Lutherans and Reformed agree that we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, on Christ's account alone; and that this justification is a "forensic" justification--we are declared just (righteous) before God on account of the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, which we receive passively through faith (which is itself God's gift).

My understanding of the Reformed position is that justification is a specific moment, the moment when we first received faith.

Lutherans, however, understand that justification isn't merely the first moment we received faith, but is the continuing justifying work of God's grace, God is continually declaring us just on Christ's account, and it is through faith which God is continually giving and working in us. Faith is not a moment of a change of opinion about certain points of religious dogma; rather faith is God's work in us--His gift to us--by which He orients us toward Himself, that the unbelieving heart of stone is transformed into a believing heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26). It is the renewal of God's grace which He is constantly granting to us, constantly working in us through faith.

That is why, for example, we receive real forgiveness of sins in the Lord's Supper, it is not merely a reminder of what Christ did for us; but actually is--by way we cannot possibly understand by reason--the body and blood of Christ, broken for us, shed for us. For the forgiveness of our sins. Thus we do not merely receive a reminder of forgiveness, we receive that forgiveness really and truly--because what we receive in the Supper is Jesus Christ, His body and blood broken and shed for you and me.

In the same way, when a pastor exercises the ministry of the Keys (Matthew 16:19, John 20:22-23), by proclaiming the forgiveness of sins, it is real forgiveness. Not because pastors have some magical sin-forgiving power, but because the pastor proclaims God's word: It is God's forgiveness, it is the forgiveness of sins wrought by Christ, which we receive continually from God as pure grace, through faith. So that we are renewed day by day. It is never about us becoming more forgiven, or more righteous; it is the same forgiveness, the same righteousness--continually given. It is a now-reality--right now God is saving you, right now God is loving you, right now God is justifying you by His grace, through faith which you have received from Him.

So when we confess our sins, we have a faithful and just God who forgives us all our sins--on Christ's account alone. The forgiveness we have at Calvary is ours through faith--and God is always at work, sustaining us, sustaining and nourishing us, working faith in us, by which we are justified freely, apart from our works. And God works faith, works forgiveness, works grace through Word and Sacrament. That is why St. Timothy is told to "preach the word in and out of season", that's Timothy's vocation as a pastor, to be a preacher of the word, rightly dividing the word of truth. That's the pastoral responsibility: to preach the Law unto repentance, and to preach the Gospel of forgiveness of our sins. That's why we invest pastors with the responsibility of pastoring--preaching the word, administering the Sacraments, being the servant of Christ and the word of Christ for the benefit of the whole Church.

That's why pastors preach, that's why pastors administer the Sacraments, that's why pastors hear confessions and pronounce God's forgiveness. Because that is the responsibility which the Church places upon them, for good order.

After all, God cares about good order in the Church (1 Corinthians 14:33). That is why some have been called to be pastors, teachers, evangelists, etc. There are many gifts, many talents, many ways to be a Christian. Not everyone is a pastor, not everyone is a teacher, not everyone is a hospital nurse or a road construction worker either. And each of those is an equally valid holy vocation in Christ. As is being a husband, a wife, a father, a mother, a brother, a sister, a cousin, an aunt, or a next door neighbor.

This is also why pastors are historically trained. The first pastors, the Apostles themselves, had successor pastors--people who were very close to the Apostles, or who learned from the Apostles themselves. Pastors were sometimes nominated by a predecessor, other times chosen by other prominent pastors in an area, or in some cases became a pastor by popular demand and the choice of the local congregations (the most famous example of that I can think of is the 4th century St. Ambrose, who had no ambition of becoming a member of the clergy, but was unanimously chosen by the Christians of Milan to be their bishop). The Church operating through this pastoral ministry, that everyone might hear the word, and the proper "division of the word of truth"; that the Sacraments would be faithfully administered; and that each congregation be continually hearing God's word, confessing God's word, and believing God's word. So that each and every one of us might be equipped to live out our Christian vocations out int he world--as a people nourished and sustained by God's word and grace, giving us the tools and equipment by which to be Christ's disciples among the nations, walking in the Holy Spirit, by faith, for good works (Ephesians 2:10)

-CryptoLutheran

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense to me. Your sins are either forgiven or they're not. It can't be only 50% forgiven or only 90% forgiven. Since NO SIN can enter Heaven, then a sin that's only forgiven 99.(9)% is not forgiven at all. And if they have been forgiven by Jesus dying on the Cross, then what is there left to forgive through the Lord's Supper or through the ministry of the keys (first time I'm hearing about this)?

No sin can enter Heaven, correct? You're considered 'saved' (therefore going to Heaven) if you have no sin, correct? You only have no sin if you have completely been forgiven, correct? So if I receive forgiveness in tranches, some of it when I first believe, some of it when I take the Lord's Supper, some of it when the pastor prays for it, then Jesus dying on the cross was not enough to pay for my sins, therefore I need to do something myself (i.e. take the Lord's Supper and go confess my sins to the pastor), correct?

Am I understanding your position correctly?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense to me. Your sins are either forgiven or they're not.

And all our sins are forgiven, they were forgiven two thousand years ago on Mt. Calvary.

I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about how we receive--here and now--that forgiveness, and how that forgiveness is worked by God in our lives

It can't be only 50% forgiven or only 90% forgiven.

You're right. And you'll note that I never said we are only partly forgiven. This isn't what I said.

Since NO SIN can enter Heaven, then a sin that's only forgiven 99.(9)% is not forgiven at all. And if they have been forgiven by Jesus dying on the Cross,

And all of our sins were forgiven at the Cross. It's that forgiveness that we are receiving as grace. Read Romans ch. 10, verses 6-17.

Why did Jesus tell His Church to preach forgiveness of sins in His name? Why did He tell His Church to preach the Gospel, to make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit? Because Jesus built His Church, and gave His Church the task of proclaiming the Gospel: The Gospel which St. Paul says is "the power of God to save all who believe" (Romans 1:16), through which God's justice is revealed, for the just walk by faith (verse 17).

It is the Gospel that brings Christ's finished and perfect work to us, and through which God gives us faith, faith to receive the forgiveness of sins that is in Jesus Christ.

It is true that Christ has justified all, objectively--all are justified in Christ (Romans 5:18), for Christ suffered death for every person (Hebrews 2:9), and through the one man's obedience salvation has come to all. How does that objective reality get appropriated to us? How does that objective reality become ours?

Objective Justification is the universal atonement of Christ's work--Christ died for all, all are justified objectively; and yet, even though justification has happened for all, it is of no benefit to me unless someone is sent to preach that I might hear, and hearing, believe, and through believing be justified on Christ's account, through faith.

Without faith, am I justified? Scripture says no. Scripture says that we are justified freely through faith.

then what is there left to forgive through the Lord's Supper or through the ministry of the keys (first time I'm hearing about this)?

It comes directly from Scripture in Matthew 16:19 and John 20:22-23.

It refers to the Church's sacred office and ministry to bind and loosen sin, "Whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whoever's sins you retain are retained." Since these words were specifically spoken to the Apostles, the Catholic and Orthodox position is that this dispensation to the Apostles is retained in the unbroken chain of succession from the Apostles down through the present day through the pastoral offices of bishop and presbyter. The latter of these two words eventually evolved into the English word prester, and finally "priest"--which is why presbyters in the Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican churches are called "priests".

Now, I'm not [Roman] Catholic, Orthodox, or Anglican; I'm a Lutheran. And Lutherans, while not rejecting the historic Apostolic Succession of bishops, do not hold to the historic succession as the thing that's really important. What's important is:

1) The Church's Ministry to preach Christ's Gospel is necessary, as Christ ordains and commands it.

2) The Church calls and ordains individuals to serve as ministers of Christ's Gospel in and for the Church.

Thus what matters isn't who is doing what, but that the word is being preached and the Sacraments administered.

The reason why Lutherans only accept pastors to administer the Lord's Supper and Sacramental Absolution isn't because pastors have a special ability, power, or even special grace for these things; but because the alternative to having certain called and ordained ministers is pure chaos. Just look at what St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11 concerning the way the Lord's Supper was being mistreated and abused by the Corinthian church. There were some showing up early and getting drunk on Christ's Supper, and others who did not show up in time were not able to receive the Supper. Paul doesn't joke around about this, he gets deadly serious about how serious of a problem this is, he directly attributes people getting sick and even dying because of how they mistreated the Eucharist.

So we know that how we treat these things in the Church actually matters--orderliness in the Church is necessary. To abuse the Eucharist is sin against the body and blood of Christ, and those who do so eat and drink judgment upon themselves, according to St. Paul.

That's why we invest specific ministers with the Ministry of the Church.

No sin can enter Heaven, correct? You're considered 'saved' (therefore going to Heaven) if you have no sin, correct?

Not correct. I mean, you're right that when we depart from this life to spend time awaiting the resurrection of the body in the Lord's presence "in heaven" that we aren't sinful, and we won't have any sin in the resurrection in the Age to Come.

But getting saved isn't about going to heaven.
Nor is getting saved about having no sin.

I'm a sinner. God's word tells me so. I sin every day. I sin every hour of every day. That's why I don't put any faith in my own works or my own "righteousness" (which isn't righteousness at all); instead I put my faith in Christ's perfect and finished work, and God makes me righteous because He gives me Christ's righteousness as a gift.

I'm a sinner right up until either my last dying breath or, God willing, when Christ returns in glory and I am caught up with the resurrection of all God's saints, "I tell you a mystery," says St. Paul, "we will not all die, but we will all be transformed; in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

But as long as I have breath in my lungs, in this present mortal and perishable body, I am at war with myself between the old man and the new. As the Apostle describes in Romans ch. 7.

And it is precisely because of this war between the old and new man that we must drown the old Adam through repentance.

You only have no sin if you have completely been forgiven, correct?

God has pardoned my sin, my "debt" against God is canceled as Christ has made perfect satisfaction on my behalf, and thus I have the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

I am, however, a sinner clothed with the white robes of Christ's righteousness. I am not a sinless man, I am a sinner, full of dead man's bones, fit only for decay. But God, who is rich in mercy, has triumphed over death, triumphed over sin, hell, and the devil, in order to give to me the salvation I so desperately need. Salvation not only by bringing me into restored relationship to God, but also the hope and promise of the very salvation of my mortal body on the Last Day (Romans 8:11, 23-24).

Yes, all my sins are forgiven.
God forgives me (present tense) of all my sins on Christ's account.

That forgiveness is always with me, that is what gives me confidence in Jesus Christ. It is on that, and that alone, that I am able to come and stand boldly before the Throne of Grace.

If I turn away from Christ, become apostate, and reject all of God's forgiveness--it no longer benefits me, I become an unbeliever. So Christ has said, "I am the Vine and you are the branches, ... apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5), and He has said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one may come to the Father except by Me." (John 14:6), and the Scriptures declare, "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts of the Apostles 4:12).

It is in Christ alone that I am forgiven.
Without Christ, I have no forgiveness.

Not because my sins aren't forgiven unless I do X, Y, and Z; but because without faith I am cut off from Christ, Christ in whom alone my forgiveness is found.

So if I receive forgiveness in tranches, some of it when I first believe, some of it when I take the Lord's Supper, some of it when the pastor prays for it, then Jesus dying on the cross was not enough to pay for my sins, therefore I need to do something myself (i.e. take the Lord's Supper and go confess my sins to the pastor), correct?

Am I understanding your position correctly?

No, I don't think you are understanding my position correctly at all.

You are talking about partial forgiveness and percentages of forgiveness--things I certainly never said, and certainly don't believe.

We have the full and entire forgiveness of our sins in Christ, through faith. That is something that is always true, not just something that was true at one time and now we don't have to think about it. Forgiveness--full forgiveness--is ours every moment of every day. That forgiveness is made manifestly present in concrete, objective, Means: Word and Sacrament.

When the Gospel is being preached, or when the Scriptures are being read and I am hearing God's word, I am experiencing God's forgiveness in that moment. I can say, in that moment, "Amen, Lord" in humility, confessing His word is true, and that my sins are forgiven.

That reality of forgiveness surrounds us, it is always at work on us: it's Grace. God doesn't stop being gracious, God doesn't stop giving us His word. We don't hear the word once and then ignore His word forever after that. We are called to come and sit at the feet of Christ, as His disciples, to hear and receive His word, which the Scriptures says are "the very words of eternal life" (John 6:68).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[abs257]

And all our sins are forgiven, they were forgiven two thousand years ago on Mt. Calvary.

I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about how we receive--here and now--that forgiveness, and how that forgiveness is worked by God in our lives



You're right. And you'll note that I never said we are only partly forgiven. This isn't what I said.



And all of our sins were forgiven at the Cross. It's that forgiveness that we are receiving as grace. Read Romans ch. 10, verses 6-17.

Why did Jesus tell His Church to preach forgiveness of sins in His name? Why did He tell His Church to preach the Gospel, to make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit? Because Jesus built His Church, and gave His Church the task of proclaiming the Gospel: The Gospel which St. Paul says is "the power of God to save all who believe" (Romans 1:16), through which God's justice is revealed, for the just walk by faith (verse 17).

It is the Gospel that brings Christ's finished and perfect work to us, and through which God gives us faith, faith to receive the forgiveness of sins that is in Jesus Christ.

It is true that Christ has justified all, objectively--all are justified in Christ (Romans 5:18), for Christ suffered death for every person (Hebrews 2:9), and through the one man's obedience salvation has come to all. How does that objective reality get appropriated to us? How does that objective reality become ours?

Objective Justification is the universal atonement of Christ's work--Christ died for all, all are justified objectively; and yet, even though justification has happened for all, it is of no benefit to me unless someone is sent to preach that I might hear, and hearing, believe, and through believing be justified on Christ's account, through faith.

Without faith, am I justified? Scripture says no. Scripture says that we are justified freely through faith.



In the centuries after the Protestant Reformation, as Protestantism produced numerous new religious movements, many running quite far afield of the historic Christian faith; introducing their own theological spins and new biblical interpretations, a lot of basic Christian theology--basic biblical teaching--has often been ignored, glossed over, and even rejected.

The concept of the Keys is one such example. It comes directly from Scripture in Matthew 16:19 and John 20:22-23.

It refers to the Church's sacred office and ministry to bind and loosen sin, "Whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whoever's sins you retain are retained." Since these words were specifically spoken to the Apostles, the Catholic and Orthodox position is that this dispensation to the Apostles is retained in the unbroken chain of succession from the Apostles down through the present day through the pastoral offices of bishop and presbyter. The latter of these two words eventually evolved into the English word prester, and finally "priest"--which is why presbyters in the Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican churches are called "priests".

Now, I'm not [Roman] Catholic, Orthodox, or Anglican; I'm a Lutheran. And Lutherans, while not rejecting the historic Apostolic Succession of bishops, do not hold to the historic succession as the thing that's really important. What's important is:

1) The Church's Ministry to preach Christ's Gospel is necessary, as Christ ordains and commands it.

2) The Church calls and ordains individuals to serve as ministers of Christ's Gospel in and for the Church.

Thus what matters isn't who is doing what, but that the word is being preached and the Sacraments administered.

The reason why Lutherans only accept pastors to administer the Lord's Supper and Sacramental Absolution isn't because pastors have a special ability, power, or even special grace for these things; but because the alternative to having certain called and ordained ministers is pure chaos. Just look at what St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 11 concerning the way the Lord's Supper was being mistreated and abused by the Corinthian church. There were some showing up early and getting drunk on Christ's Supper, and others who did not show up in time were not able to receive the Supper. Paul doesn't joke around about this, he gets deadly serious about how serious of a problem this is, he directly attributes people getting sick and even dying because of how they mistreated the Eucharist.

So we know that how we treat these things in the Church actually matters--orderliness in the Church is necessary. To abuse the Eucharist is sin against the body and blood of Christ, and those who do so eat and drink judgment upon themselves, according to St. Paul.

That's why we invest specific ministers with the Ministry of the Church.



Not correct. I mean, you're right that when we depart from this life to spend time awaiting the resurrection of the body in the Lord's presence "in heaven" that we aren't sinful, and we won't have any sin in the resurrection in the Age to Come.

But getting saved isn't about going to heaven.
Nor is getting saved about having no sin.

I'm a sinner. God's word tells me so. I sin every day. I sin every hour of every day. That's why I don't put any faith in my own works or my own "righteousness" (which isn't righteousness at all); instead I put my faith in Christ's perfect and finished work, and God makes me righteous because He gives me Christ's righteousness as a gift.

I'm a sinner right up until either my last dying breath or, God willing, when Christ returns in glory and I am caught up with the resurrection of all God's saints, "I tell you a mystery," says St. Paul, "we will not all die, but we will all be transformed; in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

But as long as I have breath in my lungs, in this present mortal and perishable body, I am at war with myself between the old man and the new. As the Apostle describes in Romans ch. 7.

And it is precisely because of this war between the old and new man that we must drown the old Adam through repentance.



God has pardoned my sin, my "debt" against God is canceled as Christ has made perfect satisfaction on my behalf, and thus I have the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

I am, however, a sinner clothed with the white robes of Christ's righteousness. I am not a sinless man, I am a sinner, full of dead man's bones, fit only for decay. But God, who is rich in mercy, has triumphed over death, triumphed over sin, hell, and the devil, in order to give to me the salvation I so desperately need. Salvation not only by bringing me into restored relationship to God, but also the hope and promise of the very salvation of my mortal body on the Last Day (Romans 8:11, 23-24).

Yes, all my sins are forgiven.
God forgives me (present tense) of all my sins on Christ's account.

That forgiveness is always with me, that is what gives me confidence in Jesus Christ. It is on that, and that alone, that I am able to come and stand boldly before the Throne of Grace.

If I turn away from Christ, become apostate, and reject all of God's forgiveness--it no longer benefits me, I become an unbeliever. So Christ has said, "I the True Vine and you are the branches, ... apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:5), and He has said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one may come to the Father except by Me." (John 14:6), and the Scriptures declare, "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts of the Apostles 4:12).

It is in Christ alone that I am forgiven.
Without Christ, I have no forgiveness.

Not because my sins aren't forgiven unless I do X, Y, and Z; but because without faith I am cut off from Christ, Christ in whom alone my forgiveness is found.



No, I don't think you are understanding my position correctly at all.

You are talking about partial forgiveness and percentages of forgiveness--things I certainly never said, and certainly don't believe.

We have the full and entire forgiveness of our sins in Christ, through faith. That is something that is always true, not just something that was true at one time and now we don't have to think about it. Forgiveness--full forgiveness--is ours every moment of every day. That forgiveness is made manifestly present in concrete, objective, Means: Word and Sacrament.

When the Gospel is being preached, or when the Scriptures are being read and I am hearing God's word, I am experiencing God's forgiveness in that moment. I can say, in that moment, "Amen, Lord" in humility, confessing His word is true, and that my sins are forgiven.

That reality of forgiveness surrounds us, it is always at work on us: it's Grace. God doesn't stop being gracious, God doesn't stop giving us His word. We don't hear the word once and then ignore His word forever after that. We are called to come and sit at the feet of Christ, as His disciples, to hear and receive His word, which the Scriptures says are "the very words of eternal life" (John 6:68).

-CryptoLutheran

I'm sorry, you're still not making sense. In your first comment, you said that 'we receive forgiveness when we take the Lord's Supper and through the Ministry of the Keys' (paraphrasing)

what forgiveness do you receive when you go and take the Lord's Supper and when you go and confess to your pastor?

is someone who has never taken the Lord's Supper forgiven or not?

is someone who has never been and confessed his sins to his pastor forgiven or not?

that is what I want to know. just answer me these two questions, please. I'm not interested in finding more about church history or Lutheran traditions at the moment.

all I want to know is this: is someone who has never taken the Lord's Supper or been and confessed his sins to a pastor forgiven or not?

 

[Paidiske]

I think perhaps the conversation here is reflecting the pastoral reality that there is often a disconnect between the objective truth of God's forgiveness of us, and the subjective appreciation of that forgiveness by the person concerned.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm sorry, you're still not making sense. In your first comment, you said that 'we receive forgiveness when we take the Lord's Supper and through the Ministry of the Keys' (paraphrasing)

what forgiveness do you receive when you go and take the Lord's Supper and when you go and confess to your pastor?

The forgiveness which is ours by the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

is someone who has never taken the Lord's Supper forgiven or not?

If they are a baptized Christian, then of course. We had our sins washed away in our baptism, when we were born again by God's grace. The Lord's Supper is partaken in by believing Christians.

So of course between a person's baptism, or first coming to faith, and the first time they receive the Lord's Supper they are forgiven--they have been washed clean of all their sins in the blood of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, by His perfect and finished atoning work.

is someone who has never been and confessed his sins to his pastor forgiven or not?

Again, yes, of course they are. See above.

that is what I want to know. just answer me these two questions, please. I'm not interested in finding more about church history or Lutheran traditions at the moment.

all I want to know is this: is someone who has never taken the Lord's Supper or been and confessed his sins to a pastor forgiven or not?

Yes, of course they have.

It's also important to understand that I'm not speaking, strictly, about Private Confession.

And yes, when we confess our sins alone to God, we also are forgiven. That is God's word and promise to us (1 John 1:9). Sacramental Absolution is, fundamentally, about verbally confirming God's word to us here, that we are forgiven.

There isn't new forgiveness, as though the former forgiveness fades and we need some new forgiveness. If that's how it has sounded, then I deeply apologize. That's not the case at all. What I've been trying to get at is that the forgiveness that is from God in Christ, for you and me and the whole world, is something that God does not just give us one time, but is always giving us. God doesn't forgive us, and then when we mess up, stop forgiving us--He still forgives us. When I sin anew, Jesus doesn't need to go and die for my sins again, His work is perfect and sufficient--I am fully and entirely and totally forgiven in Christ.

But I am reminded, over and over again, by God's word, of my forgiveness. I am forgiven, God continually tells me that I am forgiven, so that I do not fall into despair and lose faith. And so God tells me I am forgiven in my baptism, He tells me I am forgiven in the Lord's Supper, He tells me I am forgiven in Absolution, He tells me I am forgiven in the Scriptures, He tells me I am forgiven over and over and over again. Because I am weak, but He is strong; His strength is made evident in weakness.

I continue to fall and fail over and over again.
But God is faithful.
When I am faithless, God remains faithful.
The steadfast love of God never fails.

He tells me this, again and again. That's His word to us. He is the God of faithful promises and enduring love and mercy. My sin, all of my sin, from the smallest to the largest, from those sins I am not aware of myself, to those sins I am more than aware of and have deep, deep shame for. All of it, forgiven. Washed away by the blood of Christ.

And it's because of that, that there is forgiveness in God's Word and Sacraments, to renew us day by day. That renewal is not some brand new application of forgiveness, as already stated. It is the renewal of God constantly sustaining our faith with His word, with His promises, His promise that we are forgiven, and that He loves us, that we belong to Him, and that the terror and tyranny of death and the devil no longer holds power over us; Christ has defeated them.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Fervent]

It's more complicated than that. It's quite a long story and I don't really want to tell everything here and now (maybe I'll put my entire story on paper one day), but I think it's more than just Him teaching me about salvation. I've noticed that the main lesson I have been receiving through all this is that I must rely on God for everything: from my salvation, to my healing (of the OCD) to my livelihood and everything in between. Whenever I've tried seeking help outside of God for my OCD, it just seemed like I was hitting closed doors. But when I prayed and cried out to God, He has responded and alleviated the issue. For example, one night I prayed and I simply said 'I can't do this anymore'. The next morning the intensity of my obsessions were down by, probably, 50% and not only did they stay there, but actually my situation has improved since. I reckon that I am now at about 10% intensity, in that I still get them, but they're quite faint and much easier to ignore. I'm not saying that this is the case for everyone with OCD: I do believe that treatment, whether through therapy or medication, is the right way to go in some cases. All I'm saying that, in my case, the Lord will complete His healing once He can't use this for teaching anymore. And if I'm wrong and it's not what's happening it doesn't matter - I can always seek treatment later if that turns out to be the case. But right now, since my obsessions are down 90% and it's very manageable, I see no reason to seek help anywhere else - I'd rather wait and see where God takes me.

Your relationship is your own, I am just curious if you would have a similar attitude towards a different medical issue. One thing I struggled with in my illness was accepting it as an illness, as because most of the symptoms are behavioral/in my thought life I couldn't accept that it was a physical defect that required medical intervention.

On topic to the thread, often we treat God's action as something mystical that simply happens through His force of will. Yet so often God chooses to act through ordinary means, growing the kingdom through the foolishness of preaching and solidifying the reality of our forgiveness through sanctifying practices and Divine ordinances. It's not that those things contain any special magic, but that God has chosen the route through which we may attain and turn the forgiveness that exists in the aether into a concrete reality in our lives. The "alternative" methods are no less spiritual nor any less of God than simply trusting Him to act, and often "faith" is little more than an excuse not to act upon methods God has prescribed rather than a genuine trust in His leading.

 

[LeGato]

I'm not sure how to approach this topic without sounding like I'm trying to debate, which I'm not.
What I want to understand from those of you who go to confession is what benefits you feel it brings.
Is it mainly a matter of feeling better after?
Is it hard to confess and is truly anonymous?
Do you confess in a general way or very specifically?
Are there sins that won't immediately be forgiven? I guess the question there is whether penance is really a thing that is practiced today?
I'm sure I'll think of other questions.
Again not here to debate. It's just an interesting idea to me. I think I see the appeal but I might be looking at it wrong.

It certainly does lift a weight off your shoulders.