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Confederate States of America: What Would've Happened if the South Won the Civil War.

Discussion in 'History & Genealogy' started by Gxg (G²), Jan 15, 2013.

  1. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    So glad to know the resources have both come in handy and have been of interest :)
     
  2. nightflight

    nightflight Veteran

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  3. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Things you don't even stop to think about when people say "States Rights!!!!" (especially concerning the Confederacy) and don't even know all that it took to make the states what they are today since there was always a lot of cut-throat politics behind boundary lines and sentiments on how others are to be seen when a border was made. Love the documentary series from History Channel ( )

     
  4. Radrook

    Radrook Well-Known Member

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    A temporary perpetuation of slavery in the Confederate States would have ensued. However, the rest of the world had already tagged slavery as corrupt and the Confederacy would have gradually been politically pressured into abolishing it soon after their military victory.
     
  5. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    It'd be interesting to see how things developed after that point if the Confederacy won and yet fell under pressure because the world had long adapted.
     
  6. Norbert L

    Norbert L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It actually was not the issue, though they did not know this. Just ask any white man at that time in America from the southern states if it was Constitutionally correct to have white slaves. The way I see it, the slavery issue of the south was a type of "twilight zone" for the first awakening of American civilization towards racism. At that time their knowledge couldn't see it under our modern understanding of racism. That historical population was just beginning to understand (to scratch the surface of) one of the many arms racist beliefs. Hindsight being 20/20 in one hand the Nazi necessity of genocide of the Jews, on the other hand enslaving blacks.

    The other oddity of the American civil war was at that time Christian Britain abolished slavery far more peaceably while the Muslim Ottoman Turks still practiced it. All of it is somewhat like trying to point to who has more blood stains on their hands. Romans 3:10-18
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2017
  7. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Understood...
     
  8. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Something else to consider that was fascinating with the Civil War era, as it concerns Jews who were involved...for many do not know on President Lincoln’s reversal of an order by General Ulysses S. Grant which expelled Jews “as a class” from the massive Tennessee Territory after accusations of disloyalty.


    As another noted best:

    We can, however, come up with some general figures. In 2008, a PBS documentary called The Jewish Americans cited 150,000 Jews living in the United States in 1860. Of these, roughly 3,000 fought for the Confederacy and 7,000 fought for the Union. That's approximately (based on the laws of higher mathematics) 10,000 Jewish soldiers taking up arms for their respective causes.

    Jews held high ranks in the armies too. Their were 9 Jewish generals and 21 Jewish colonels in the war. Judah P. Benjamin, who from what I understand was a non-observant Jew, served as the Confederate Secretary of State and Secretary of War.

    How about that.

    But it's not all about names and numbers. In the news, U. S. Grant made headlines when he issued his infamous General Order no. 11 on December 17, 1862. This order essentially expelled all Jews from his military district (Tennessee, Mississippi, Kentucky) in an effort to curtail black market cotton trading, which Grant thought was being run "mostly by Jews and other unprincipled traders." Not Sam Grant's finest hour, to be sure. At least Abraham Lincoln had the good sense to immediately reprimand Grant (who then rescinded the order).

    Many of the Jewish soldiers fighting in the Union armies were recent immigrants - from places like Germany and elsewhere in Central Europe. But not all were foreign born - especially in the Confederacy. A great number of these soldiers were native to the states (and country...I suppose) for which they fought. Some of the oldest synagogues in the prewar nation, for example, were in Virginia and South Carolina. There is a Jewish Confederate cemetery called Shockoe Hill in Richmond, Virginia, and Hollywood Cemetery (also in Richmond) has a Jewish section.

    So there you have it. There are a couple of books worth checking out for further information. I recommend Jews and the Civil War: A Reader edited by Adam Mendelsohn and Jonathan Sarna as well as American Jewry and the Civil War by Betram W. Korn







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  9. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Something I recently came across that has literally fascinated me....

    With all of the recent discussions (after the horror of what happened in Virginia last month with that White Supremacy rally and the aftermath of people demanding the removal of Confederate monuments) that we have a lot of things that we need to now bring to the forefront. I am Remembering today, if the focus is on memory in our nation, how so many stories are unknown to show how much of U.S. history was GLOBAL history. Glad for learning recently of the Asian Americans present in the Civil War, like my dude Corporal Joseph Pierce.

    As another said best, "he was mustered into the Fourteenth Regiment, Company F of the Connecticut Volunteer Infantry that became part of the Second Brigade of the Third Division, Second Army Corps of the Army of the Potomac. From 1862 to 1865, Pierce survived some of the bloodiest battles of the war and is believed to have achieved the highest rank of any Chinese American to serve in the Union Army, having reached the rank of Corporal."

    Sadly, Despite his many achievements, he was denied US citizenship due to the anti-immigrant Chinese Exclusion Act that happened not too long after the Civil War era - and many Asian Americans in their military history had the same experience, until others finally honored their stories in recent decades. There are many events that bring cultures together around the world and then are later forgotten. With the Chinese in America, the Trans-Continental Railroad did much with bringing immigrants to the Americans to build - but there are also other world events that made a difference, considering how Russia and China were allies during the Civil War era AND Russia actually supported the Union (as the Tsar and Lincoln were friends).

    For more info, one can go here:
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    For others wishing to go deeper and gain more information on the little-known memory of the Asian American veterans in the Civil War:

    -"Men Without a Country - Chinese in the American Civil War" ( )

    -"Woo Hong Neok - A Chinese American soldier in the Civil War" ( Woo Hong Neok | Pennsylvania Civil War 150 )

    -"THE CIVIL WAR PARLORarchive/rss/ask" ( CHINESE SOLDIER FOUGHT IN THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR ... - The Civil War Parlor )

    -"Indy-Chinese New Year: Early Chinese-Americans & The Holiday, Hooiser Style" ( https://carlanthonyonline.com/2013/...-chinese-americans-the-holiday-hooiser-style/ )

    -"10 Astounding Fish-Out-Of-Water Stories From History" ( http://listverse.com/2015/03/29/10-astounding-fish-out-of-water-stories-from-history/ )

    -"Did you know Chinese & Filipino Soldiers Fought in U.S. Civil War?" ( Did you know Chinese & Filipino Soldiers Fought in U.S. Civil War? )

    -"Asian Americans in U.S. History: Civil War" (Asian Americans in U.S. History: Civil War )

    -"Veterans to Remember: Chinese Americans in the Civil War : We're " ( Veterans to Remember: Chinese Americans in the Civil War )

    -"CHINESE IN THE U.S. CIVIL WAR - Ruthanne Lum McCunn' ( http://mccunn.com/Civil-War.html )

    -"Historian Recounts Role of Chinese Americans Who Fought in US" ( https://www.voanews.com/a/surprise-asians-fought-in-the-us-civil-war-120282254/163158.html )

    -"The secret history of Chinese-American Civil War soldiers - this ain't livin'" ( http://meloukhia.net/2017/02/the_secret_history_of_chinese-american_civil_war_soldiers/)

    Also, for anyone wanting to know the history of Filipinos in the American Civil War, one can go here ( http://adenu1980.blogspot.gr/2011/05/filipinos-in-american-civil-war.html ).

    There were also Confederate soldiers who fought in the Civil War as well, to be clear (http://www.williamsonherald.com/news/article_b84082cf-716d-5109-99a5-b9e79317498b.html )/ (https://www.facebook.com/Confederat...s/pcb.331880717244734/331880703911402/?type=3 )

    -"Chinese Soldiers Fought in U.S. Civil War" ( http://billhowe.org/MCE/chinese-soldiers-fought-in-u-s-civil-war/ )
     
  10. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Also, I was reminded recently on some of the ways events in world history can have a global impact on multiple levels - and yet people who you would never have expected can be caught in the middle of it and forgotten. I would encourage all to consider supporting this amazing historical project that documents the Hawaii Sons of the Civil War.

    Pacific Islander history is fascinating and I am thankful the Smithsonian Museum of the American Indian had an exhibit on the Indigenous contributions to U.S. history - because so much of war ends up leaving people behind who made it happen. And no one ever wins in war.










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    How differently would the Confederacy have looked if Hawaiians had not been involved!!!!


     
  11. Babe Ruth

    Babe Ruth Active Member

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    Anyone mention the Indian Nations contained within the borders of the Confederate States (?)
    Confederate government (Albert Pike) negotiated & ratified several treaties w/Southern tribes. I plead ignorance on all the details of Pike's treaties.. but I assume an independent CSA could've have ceded land back to Indian allies, following assistance with a theoretical victory.
    I mention this because I think the CSA could've fractured in to both some small Indian nations, and separate, independent states. I don't believe it would've stayed in it's wartime (emergency) form. It's also possible the upper South could've reunited with the Union (I mean, without Lincoln's conscription, Virginia may have never seceded).. and Cuba could've joined a Deep Southern Confederacy.. maybe?
    Interesting speculation either way..
     
  12. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    Good points
     
  13. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

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    As an aside, at a rally protesting Neo-Nazis in Newnan (GA), I actually met someone with a Confederate States badge and we had a fascinating conversation on what you noted. Glad we met with our new friend Alan and be reminded on the ways that not everyone in the South who was a Confederate was against Black folks, especially seeing the ways that things weren't all good up North.

    And as my friend was a Native American as well, we had good discussion together. We talked on our mutual backgrounds and we talked on Natives in the Confederacy - with me remembering things other Native American Christians have said.

    As a friend said best on the recent controversy over Confederate Statues:


    FIRST NATIONS FOR TAKING DOWN STATUES OF UNION GENERALS?

    Where are the protests for taking down the statues of General Custer? Where are the protests for taking down statues of every Union General that took part in the genocide of First Nations people?

    1) William Tecumseh Sherman.
    2) Oliver Otis Howard
    3) Philip H. Sheridan.
    4) George Crook.
    5) Nelson A. Mile
    6) Andrew Jackson

    Confederate Brigadier General Stand Watie was a Cherokee Indian was the last Confederate general to surrender. Do they want to take his statue down as well? He commanded the Confederate Indian cavalry of the Army of the Trans-Mississippi, made up mostly of Cherokee, Muskogee and Seminole warriors who fought against the Union army that was enforcing the forced removal of their people.

    What are your thoughts? I'm just pointing out the double standard and hypocrisy...After all, weren't Democrats the ones who put many of these statues up?

    Thankful someone noted this for what it was since the binary understanding of the Confederacy as bad and the Union as good isn't accurate, especially considering what the Lincoln Memorial symbolizes to Native Americans in his treatment of them - the largest mass execution in U.S. history was a staged event where random Native Americans (without just trial) were rounded up and hung, known as the Dakota 38:


    Mark Charles covered this best when speaking on why Native Americans see Lincoln radically different than others,( Wirelesshogan: Reflections from the Hogan: The Truth about Abraham Lincoln, #NativeLivesMatter, #BlackLivesMatter) - and if you want to take things further, many Native Americans fought for the Union (particularly the Cherokees, who had been badly treated by the Southerners) while some tribes fought for the Confederacy because they were slave holders (as seen with the Creek and Choctaw, in particular, who were large slave owners in the south AND wanting to preserve the economic prosperity slave ownership brought them).







     

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    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
  14. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

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    In order for the South to have won the American Civil War, they would have had to give up on slavery, and fight solely for constitutional states' rights. In fact, the South PROBABLY would have won were that the case. Maryland would have defected prior to Antietam, Washington DC would have fallen. The British would have thrown their support solidly behind the South. The Battle Hymn would not have been the abolitionists' battle cry, nor would Dixie and the Confederate battle flag have been symbols of oppression. Maybe they wouldn't have achieved total capitulation by the North; but the North would have recognized their secession, as the CSA had been seeking.

    So if the CSA had won the Civil War, for that reason, we actually would have been better off. At least then you could cross Trump's border wall into Virginia.
     
  15. Babe Ruth

    Babe Ruth Active Member

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    97, Thanks for sharing your thoughts..
    Maryland didn't secede largely bcuz Lincoln pre-emptively arrested their (potential) secessionist leadership. But there was strong secession sentiment in Maryland before & throughout the war (especially eastern Maryland and Baltimore). Remember Lincoln had to basically be smuggled thru Maryland en route to DC, for fear of secessionist assassination..
    Personally, I'm not sure a seceded Maryland makes much difference in the end tho.. and personally I don't think the South could separate state control over slavery, from their principled defense of other States' rights. They were all connected in the big picture of State right supremacy (over Federal supremacy).

    As far as a Confederate flag being solely characterized as symbol of oppression.. that's a subjective opinion. Peace.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
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