Confederacy and the South

Lik3

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I ask that you would please watch this video as I have asked many questions about the Confederacy and the South in general. Also, what has really happened during slavery and why are blacks in general portrayed as victimized slaves of evil white people when some blacks were enslavers and others were free? Some blacks may have also benefited from the slave trade, so was the Civil War about class as well as about race? What were to happen if the South actually won the Civil War? I admit to have made some errors in this video. I would appreciate your answers and your input to all of these questions.
 

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Firstly, your video is too long for most people I would guess.

I am not a Southerner, but in South Africa we have a few similar problems.

We had a system called Apartheid, essentially similar to Segregation in place here until quite recently. Some blacks, such as the leaders of the Homelands and traditional leaders, profited handsomely from the old regime and often tried to maintain their power (unsuccessfully) as Apartheid was dismantled. Likewise most wealth and land is still concentrated in white hands. The whites tend to feel that when Apartheid is discussed, it is used as a weapon to belittle their ancestors or to score political points in the present. Blacks feel that transformation and black empowerment has not gone far enough and often blame all their problems on Apartheid. This makes Apartheid a difficult and highly political topic which whites try to ignore and blacks constantly feel justifies anything they want.

When the Dutch first came to South Africa in 1654, they brought along slaves from Madagascar, Angola, Indonesia, Malaysia and India (although they did not enslave the native Khoikhoi, but turned them into essentially indentured labour). They then formed a slave-owning society until the British took over (1806) and freed the slaves in 1830. British policy and rule, a heavy-handed response to a tax dispute and the belief that they had been insufficiently compensated for their slaves, led to a mass exodus of Dutch-descended farmers (Boers) into the hinterland in 1834 (the Great Trek).
There they formed two Republics which the British then subjugated in the Second Anglo-Boer War (1899-1902). The Boers initially did very well before superior British numbers saw them overpowered after the first year. The Boers then switched to guerrilla warfare for the remaining two years before finally surrendering. The British burned the Boer farms and forced their women and children into concentration camps where scores died, in order to force their men to surrender. 80 000 Boer troops held off and initially won against 500 000 British troops.
This has left the Afrikaans-speaking whites very proud of their ancestors and heritage and makes them feel like victims of Imperialism. (Similar to Southerners history of losing the American Civil War and Sherman's march to the sea, only worse)

Because the Afrikaans population was predominantly (but not solely) responsible for Apartheid, Afrikaner flags and symbolism have become associated with Racism. This has led to the fact that the Vierkleur flag of one of those old Boer Republics has become the equivalent of the Confederate Flag in the US. It is considered a flag of heritage and sacrifice by Boer ancestors, but seen as a racist symbol by others.

So I have a lot of sympathy to Southerners who struggle with a divisive history of Segregation, who are unsure how to address it in the modern world. Who feel their heritage is belittled and brave ancestors insulted because of how a few Racists use their flag and have to fight off calls to remove it even from war memorials. Who feel like they are the victims of an Imperialist power that burnt their homes and crushed their independence, yet aren't allowed to properly celebrate their ancestors without being branded racists.

Apartheid was a crime, as was segregation. But that does not mean it must forever define a region, forever leave one group branded as Racist, prohibit them from celebrating the deeds of the departed or their history. This is patently unfair.

As to your questions:
Whites are blamed for slavery as it is easier than addressing the full scope of the practice and dovetails nicely with modern arguments of income inequality and racism.
All wars are about Class as it is about who has what and trying to keep it or seize it.
If the South won, they would probably have ended slavery themselves by about the 1880s as Brazil did. This is because they could not replenish their stocks from Africa due to the British ending the slave trade and the freeing of slaves by some masters and economic factors which made wage slavery cheaper than actual slavery.
The South, being dependant on Cotton which was exported to the Lancaster Mills in England, would likely have become a satellite state of the British Empire. There would also probably have been more wars between the CSA and the USA as they both expanded and perhaps they would have taken opposite sides in WWI, as the enemy of my enemy is my friend (Probably Germany, USA, Austro-Hungary vs Britain, Russia, France, CSA)
 
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Lik3

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Thanks for your reply. How did segregation come about after Reconstruction and why was it deemed legal? Not only was it immoral, but it seems that many Southern states saw a loophole and created the policy of racial segregation.
 
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Lik3

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To some, the Confederate Flag is akin to the Nazi flag. Personally, I find it insulting. The Nazis were fascists or socialists who were responsible for the killing of over 10 million people, most of whom were Jews. They Nazis were guilty of genocide and deceiving and using the German people in particular. I gather in essence there was no freedom of speech or religion in Hitler's Germany.

As horrible as slavery and oppression were (and still are), the Confederacy last just FOUR years of our history. The US is 240 years old, and the country (even minus the Confederacy) have its own shameful history, with the removal of NAs to reservations, the inhumane treatment of AAs, among others. That also goes to who would have truly benefited from the creation of the Confederacy and who would have really benefited from the Civil War.
 
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Radrook

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Since most of the rest of the world had already done away with slavery the Confederate victory would not have prevented international economic sanctions from eventually forcing emancipation. In fact, President Lincoln made the War seem as if it were primarily fought over an emancipation issue as opposed to one of State secession in order to prevent European powers such as France and England who wee being affected financially by the war from lending the Confederacy any significant military support.
 
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MWood

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Thanks for your reply. How did segregation come about after Reconstruction and why was it deemed legal? Not only was it immoral, but it seems that many Southern states saw a loophole and created the policy of racial segregation.
It wasn't just the Southern States that were segregated, The whole of the US was segregated. Not just segregated white from black but also white and black from NAs. There was also segregation of the Irish, Jewish, Japanese, Chinese. Everyone wanted their own community, schools, churches, etc. It wasn't just the South, It was every where.
 
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Radrook

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It wasn't just the Southern States that were segregated, The whole of the US was segregated. Not just segregated white from black but also white and black from NAs. There was also segregation of the Irish, Jewish, Japanese, Chinese. Everyone wanted their own community, schools, churches, etc. It wasn't just the South, It was every where.
Wasn't it the former Union Civil War General and then elected president Grant who made the term: "The only good Indian I a dead Indian?" popular with those who needed that kind of support to justify their bigotry?

Certain USA Irish immigrant soldiers felt so persecuted in the USA Army that they chose to desert and take the Mexican side during the USA Mexican War and became known as Saint Patrick's Brigade or the San Patricios. They are still hailed as heroes there. They were executed via hanging by US forces occupying Mexico City once the war was won and they had been captured. The few who were allowed to live were branded in the face as a mark of shame.

There is a film about this entitled "One Man's Heroe"

 
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Lik3

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I have heard that sad sentence about a dead Indian before. I am not so sure about Grant, but the Northern US were no angels either. Furthermore, MWood, you made a good point about segregation being everywhere. Was segregation also sanctioned and deemed legal up North? I wonder if the North were the winners in history. However, the North were no innocents themselves. They were hypocrites who too looked down on those who were Southerners (and still do), who they deemed non-white, and especially if they were poor. Is it true that Northerners are just as racist, but more classicists and elitist than the South, yet Southerners, some of whom are racists, are more honest about it?
 
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blackribbon

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The video was too slow and honestly...too boring (list of states names?) and I didn't make it past 2 minutes. I am wondering if it included the point that the Lincoln offered to allow areas to keep slavery if they would just come back to the union?
 
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Lik3

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The video was too slow and honestly...too boring (list of states names?) and I didn't make it past 2 minutes. I am wondering if it included the point that the Lincoln offered to allow areas to keep slavery if they would just come back to the union?

:scratch:

My video hasn't gotten that far, but I will definitely look into it. I personally think Lincoln was a good enough President, but in some ways, he was overrated.
 
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blackribbon

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:scratch:

My video hasn't gotten that far, but I will definitely look into it. I personally think Lincoln was a good enough President, but in some ways, he was overrated.

He was human and trying to be a leader in a very hard time of history. You can't judge him from a 2016 viewpoint...that isn't fair. I think he was simply trying to preserve the Union. Did you know that before the Civil War, we were known as The United States of America...which was a plural designation because the individual states were more important than the union...and after the Civil War, it became a singular word meaning that the whole country as a whole was the emphasis. I think if he hadn't been shot, the after war transition would have been a lot smoother. He had a plan that was trashed when he died. Instead, there were years of southern punishment that probably complicated the rights of the dark skinned citizens because the general white society felt threatened and abused. Many southerns were fighting for their own financial survival which probably stunted the ability of the former slaves to assimilate into the free society. It is like the story where the guy goes to work and his boss is frustrated and yells at him, so he comes home and yells at his wife (since he can't yell at his boss), the wife then takes it out on their child, who is frustrated and just kicks the cat... the freed slaves were just the cat who happened to walk into the room at the wrong time...(okay, not completely but you get the idea). Also, the poor white people were dead set that they weren't going to end up behind former slaves on the social ladder.
 
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Radrook

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The video was too slow and honestly...too boring (list of states names?) and I didn't make it past 2 minutes. I am wondering if it included the point that the Lincoln offered to allow areas to keep slavery if they would just come back to the union?
That's what Lincoln stated at the outset when rivers of Union and Confederate blood had not as yet made a sufficient impression on him and he figured that struggle would quickly be over once the more numerous, Union Armies backed by the far more industrialized North started rolling along.

However, as the gore and the blood and the setbacks piled up with no predictable end in site and the possibility of foreign intervention via greater aid to the Confederate side grew, Lincoln found it both politically and militarily expedient to describe the struggle as one over slavery as an immoral institution and the emancipation of slaves.
 
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blackribbon

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That's what Lincoln stated at the outset when rivers of Union and Confederate blood had not as yet made a sufficient impression on him and he figured that struggle would quickly be over once the more numerous, Union Armies backed by the far more industrialized North started rolling along.

However, as the gore and the blood and the setbacks piled up with no predictable end in site and the possibility of foreign intervention via greater aid to the Confederate side grew, Lincoln found it both politically and militarily expedient to describe the struggle as one over slavery as an immoral institution and the emancipation of slaves.

It is stated in the Emancipation Proclamation as such....slavery would be allowed in the states, or parts of states that rejoined the union by Jan 1, 1863. However, there was a deadline that passed. Officially the slaves had been freed prior to the end of the war. There were multiple parishes (counties) in Louisiana and West Virginia that were excluded from the Emancipation Proclamation including the city of New Orleans so they could legally still own slaves.

Do we often change the reason we are fighting a war in mid-war? The South was fighting for states rights...the right to make their own laws concerning its own citizens. It is hard for those of us who were raised thinking of the federal government being the primary law of the land to understand how important it was for to these citizens to retain local control and that the laws covering say South Carolina were made and determined by South Carolinian and not people in New York who had never stepped foot on a farm. The North was primarily fighting to stay one nation. Slavery was an important issue but it was the one that southern states were fighting to determine for themselves.

Honestly, this is really not that different from the war of independence that the country had fought less than a 100 years before. The Americans wanted to make their own laws and not just be given laws made by Britain who had little understanding of what life was like here in the colonies. They wanted to be heard and not treated like children who didn't have the capacity to understand the real issues.
 
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Radrook

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I have heard that sad sentence about a dead Indian before. I am not so sure about Grant, but the Northern US were no angels either. Furthermore, MWood, you made a good point about segregation being everywhere. Was segregation also sanctioned and deemed legal up North? I wonder if the North were the winners in history. However, the North were no innocents themselves. They were hypocrites who too looked down on those who were Southerners (and still do), who they deemed non-white, and especially if they were poor. Is it true that Northerners are just as racist, but more classicists and elitist than the South, yet Southerners, some of whom are racists, are more honest about it?

I ascribed the "dead Indian" saying it to Grant based on memory that I had read it somewhere. However, I researched the saying to confirm my certainty and cannot find it ascribed to Grant nor any other person with 100% certainty at all.
http://www.dickshovel.com/ind.html
 
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civilwarbuff

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Wasn't it the former Union Civil War General and then elected president Grant who made the term: "The only good Indian I a dead Indian?" popular with those who needed that kind of support to justify their bigotry?
That was Sheridan; I believe he said "I saw a good Indian once, he was dead" or along those lines.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Did you know that before the Civil War, we were known as The United States of America...which was a plural designation because the individual states were more important than the union...and after the Civil War, it became a singular word meaning that the whole country as a whole was the emphasis.
I believe the expression is "The United States are" (plural) to "The United States is" singular but you are correct about the meaning.
 
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civilwarbuff

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The video was too slow and honestly...too boring (list of states names?) and I didn't make it past 2 minutes. I am wondering if it included the point that the Lincoln offered to allow areas to keep slavery if they would just come back to the union?
Lincoln stated repeatedly that he did not believe that as president he had the authority to outlaw slavery but decided as CiC he did in the name of military expediency. But it took the 13th Amendment to legally abolish slavery.
 
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civilwarbuff

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I ask that you would please watch this video as I have asked many questions about the Confederacy and the South in general. Also, what has really happened during slavery and why are blacks in general portrayed as victimized slaves of evil white people when some blacks were enslavers and others were free? Some blacks may have also benefited from the slave trade, so was the Civil War about class as well as about race? What were to happen if the South actually won the Civil War? I admit to have made some errors in this video. I would appreciate your answers and your input to all of these questions.
I watched the video (finally) and really was quite amused. It reminded of "Birth of a Nation" by DW Griffith a silent film in 1915 which trumpeted the "Lost Cause" view of the south.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_a_Nation
If you have not seen it before, you should watch it. I believe you will see how the makers of the video used that film as a reference point.
 
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