Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

[he-man]

So your wife checks your work? Is she also aware of the differences between Biblical Greek and Modern Greek?
Besides, Christians today cannot read the Bible in English today because they have preconceived beliefs. Why would I trust someone who has an interpretation on a language I don’t know? It would make it even more difficult to find out the truth on such a thing.

No, but I do and I have also taken Hebrew in college and have translated Koine Greek. If you don't know Greek how can you even argue a scripture without using Christian dogma?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, but I do and I have also taken Hebrew in college and have translated Koine Greek. If you don't know Greek how can you even argue a scripture without using Christian dogma?

*Gives you a big hug*

I just want you to know I care about you and that I do not wish to be upset or on the defensive.
I apologize if I appear to be a little touchy with this particular subject. I have my reasons for the way I feel on this topic. Sometimes it is appropriate to share why, but I think in this instance, I may let it go.

Anyways, to help give you a glimpse of what I believe in regards to interpretating God's Word: Well, there are several factors I take into consideration.

#1. There is one Word of God (and it existed in various languages through out time perfectly) because it is a divine document. It is perfect because it is God's Word. Whether you agree with me or not, I believe the KJV (1769) is the perfect Word of God for our world language today (i.e. English). I believe the Word of God existed perfectly also in the Latin (not the Catholic version), the Greek, and the Hebrew. There are several reasons I believe the KJV is divine (like it's predecessors). First, the Word of God says that it is perfect and that it would be preserved for all generations; And we learn that God once before had translated people's languages perfectly in Acts of the Apostles 2. Second, I believe that the KJV is superior comparing it with the Modern Translations. In fact, many Modern Translations have the devil's name within them. Three, biblical numerics (i.e. not numerology and not the use of numbers to tell the future) also proves the KJV is divine (just like it does with the Greek). For the numbers have one major purpose in God's Word. To glorify His Word and to show us that it is divine.

#2. Context. This is the surrounding verses and or chapters of a verse or passage that helps shed light on what is being said more clearly.

#3. Cross References. If there is a particular truth taught in the Bible, chances are it is taught elsewere in another part of the Bible in another verse or passage. I use OpenBible.org because they sometimes seem to have more cross references than other Bible websites.

#4. Prayer. Jeremiah 33:3 says, "Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not." There are times when my faith was tested in God's Word. Where I had thought I had seen a contradiction, I prayed and asked God to show me what His Word was really saying. Sometimes I would keep praying, and it would take days, or even weeks to figure it out. In some other rare cases, it was months. But God has always come through for me.

#5. I am willing to admit there are some things that are just not revealed in the Scriptures. I do not need to have all the answers if God has not given them to us within His Word. In other words, I believe it is good not to go beyond what is written in God's Word.

#6. God's goodness or morality. Does the verse, passage, or biblical truth support God's goodness or common basic morality?

#7. Read tons of articles on the internet by various Christians. Sometimes I do not stop searching until I feel God has revealed His truth to me. One example is John 19:14 and the sixth hour. Many just write this off as an error within the text; But I believe God's Word (the KJV) is divine. So it is a matter of faith for me. I kept searching for about a week and a half reading various articles. In fact, I thought I had a workable solution to the problem but God showed me otherwise a year or so later by my reading another article. What was that solution? Well, Jesus is judged by Pilate (a Roman) early in the morning. He is then whipped and mocked. After six hours have past from the starting point of the previous night of the 1st hour of when Christ is betrayed into the hands of sinners (1st hour: Matthew 26:45) (Sixth hour: John 19:14): Pilate sets Jesus before a Jewish audience and says to them, “Behold your king!” Then at 9:00AM (third hour): Jesus is crucified. In other words, the sixth hour is counted from the starting point of the 1st hour of when he was betrayed into the hands of sinners. The sixth hour is counted from this point.

#8. Do a keyword study at BlueLetterBible and look up the etymology of the word.
I believe both the original languages and the English do not conflict with each other and that they breath in harmony and say the same thing essentially.

Anyways, I hope this helps you to see where I am coming from.
May God bless you in all good that you do for the Lord.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

 

[pat34lee]

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
I believe that.
Paul condemned circumcisiion salvationism, Peter was clearly told by God to eat unclean animals (Which is confirmed by Paul's words), and Jesus said to turn the other cheek instead of rendering an eye for an eye. The Law has changed just as Hebrews 7:12 says. In fact, Paul warns his readers to not be justified by the Law (i.e. the Old Law), otherwise one is fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4).

Circumcision never had anything to do with salvation, only
with the covenants that God made with Israel. Think of it
as a covenant marriage and wedding band which symbolized
the union.

 

[pat34lee]

That's unkind and unwarranted.

That depends.
Do you teach others to break the commands of God?

You're right that the book title /torah/ is better translated "instructions" than "law"; but you're wrong that it's "instructions on how to live." Rather, it's the story of God instructing man about their own weakness and His own holiness. This is one of the reasons why we only have fragments of the original code of laws now, scattered among many stories of how the people were busy disobeying the Law before, during, and after it was given to them.

That, and the fact that people tend to idolize things of
the past. Antiques, relics, first editions ... The information
was the important part, not the written words.

This is how Jesus fulfilled the whole Law and prophets.

If only one person followed every rule of the road all their
life, would that change your responsibility or mine to follow
them, too? Why do people think that fulfilling means anything
but what it says literally?

Fulfill = carry out (a task, duty, or role) as required, pledged, or expected:

How much do you know about the different sacrifices and
offerings that God commanded through Moses?

 

[ClementofA]

BTW ~ Not sure why this truly matters to you to debate this. If everyone is going to be saved as you believe, then your efforts are useless and futile. What you do doesn’t matter. Everyone is saved according to your belief.

Going to "hell" doesn't matter?

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Going to "hell" doesn't matter?

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

I am saying that believing in Universalism is the kind of belief that teaches that what you do in this life really doesn't matter. It leads to apathy and or being uncaring because everyone is going to be saved. What does it matter what you really do? What does it really matter if you convince me or not because everyone is going to be saved and have the same knowledge in God's kingdom. Your efforts are wasted if you believe everyone is going to be saved. But even life teaches us that what we do here does have consequences.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Circumcision never had anything to do with salvation, only
with the covenants that God made with Israel. Think of it
as a covenant marriage and wedding band which symbolized
the union.

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

 

[William Tanksley Jr]

You think she denies that aion has been used to mean "timeless eternity"?

That's not what I said. Follow the link I gave; I'm explaining the page they were discussing. They took a statement out of context in order to show that Keizer's a universalist, specifically claiming she was saying that /aion/ cannot mean forever, when actually that quote was teaching that one particular author doesn't use /aion/ to mean timeless eternity.

They are incorrect; she directly contradicts that in her conclusions. They're also incorrect because they clearly misunderstood the page they were citing.

I'm not saying I know she's not a universalist, BTW. I'm just saying there's no argument ever presented for saying she is.

Have you read or studied aion in Plato? See, for example, p.228 at:

Yes, and more importantly, I've read Keizer's discussion of it, which is what we're supposed to be discussing.

 

[William Tanksley Jr]

Let's read it.

"It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever." (Philemon 1:15) (NLT).

This is in context to them being alive. For Paul says he is sending Onesimus back to Philemon.

I believe Christians will live forever. I find no puzzle in Paul speaking of Christians who are reconciled "have [each other] back forever," and literally mean that they'll both live literally forever.

I have no idea what argument you're trying to make when you say that /eis ton aionas/ doesn't mean "forever" because "this is in context to them being alive" and "Paul mentions nothing about how he is sending Onesimus's dead body back to Philemon and yet he is still a brother forever. "

(That last sentence still stumps me. I cannot imagine what hidden assumptions are at play when you said it as though it were an argument.)

Paul talks about how he is sending Onesimus back to Philemon so that he could have him back forever as a brother in this life. It is not talking about the next life. The context does not allow for it.

HOW does it disallow it? Does Paul somewhere say, "you've gained him back forever, but of course he'll lose his salvation and perish on Judgment Day and so you'll never see him after that?" Why are you ruling out the most obvious and natural interpretation, that Paul actually thinks the two of them will both live forever now that they're both saved?

NT Scripture says that the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12) and yet OT Scripture says the Old Law will last forever. Therefore we have to conclude that the word "forever" and it's related words does not always mean forever in the sense of all of eternity but it means "forever" as long as that thing is destined to exist.

It's true that the word "eternal" doesn't always mean time without end. It usually does, but in Hebrew especially it sometimes doesn't. But "forever" almost always does mean just that. (I can think of one exception right off, so this is not a hard and fast rule.) In the above case, it's most likely the case that God is refering to Christ's upholding of the Law, keeping it for us.

I also believe the wicked go through long periods of sleep in hell and they are awakened only as it serves God's plans and purposes. We see in the story of Lazarus and the Richman, an example of when a wicked person is awake in hell.

I find this a very sensible theory that's well-attested in the early church. Aprahat seems to believe this, for example; and Irenaeus may have (although he may also have thought people were permanently conscious).

Possibility #1. The richman was tormented within the flames of hell but they are not like our flames here on Earth because if they were like real world flames, then he would be screaming too badly to be able to talk to anyone. So this suggests that these flames were not all that painful like a real fire would be.

Possibility #2. The richman was tormented by the HEAT of the flames either nearby him or in the great gulf between him and Abraham.

I believe the Lake of Fire will eventually destroy both body and soul the wicked AND the devil and his minions. But I believe it is highly likely that the wicked will be punished for a set amount of time (that is unknown) in proportion to their sins in the Lake of Fire before they are destroyed or erased from existence. This is based on two passages.

In Isaiah 66, we read on the "Final New Earth" (after the Judgment) that a certain amount of Sabbaths (weekly Sabbaths) and or new moons (months) will pass before the saints view the carcases of the wicked.

22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." (Isaiah 66:22-24).

Jesus says it is better if a millstone were hung about the neck of a person who makes a child to fall into sin.

"But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea." (Matthew 18:6) (NLT).

Which is finally then compared to being cast into everlasting hell fire (Matthew 18:8).

So the punishment of experience hell fire has to be worse than drowning at the depths of the sea by having a millestone tied to one's neck.

 

[ClementofA]

I am saying that believing in Universalism is the kind of belief that teaches that what you do in this life really doesn't matter. It leads to apathy and or being uncaring because everyone is going to be saved. What does it matter what you really do? What does it really matter if you convince me or not because everyone is going to be saved and have the same knowledge in God's kingdom. Your efforts are wasted if you believe everyone is going to be saved. But even life teaches us that what we do here does have consequences.

Going to "hell" isn't a "consequence"? It doesn't matter?

Everyone isn't going to be saved - from going to "hell".

Are your efforts going to save anyone? Or is that up to their choice or God's will? What do your efforts matter? Does God depend upon you to get people saved? Are you the Saviour of the world?

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to? Does His love have an expiry date like a carton of milk?

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
Statement of Faith -- Please Read

 

[ClementofA]

I have no idea what argument you're trying to make when you say that /eis ton aionas/ doesn't mean "forever" because "this is in context to them being alive" and "Paul mentions nothing about how he is sending Onesimus's dead body back to Philemon and yet he is still a brother forever. "

Philemon 1:15 does not have the phrase "eis ton aionas", but rather aionios:

For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever[AIONIOS] KJV

A cross reference about another slave is Exodus 21:6:

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (KJV)
Then he will be his servant for life. (NIV)
and he shall serve him permanently. (NASB)

Exodus 21:6, LXX has "eis ton aionas", clearly using it of finite duration. The phrase "eis ton aionas" does not mean forever in Exo.21:6.

The LXX scholars translated the Hebrew "le olam" as "eis ton aionas" in Exo.21:6. Obviously "le olam" does not mean forever or endless duration there (in the Hebrew) either.

As i've pointed out before:

"In the multivolume THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT (begun in German under the editorship of Gerhard Kittel) Hermann Sasse admits, “The concept of eternity [in aionios] is weakened” in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 1:2 (vol.1. p.209). He explains that these passages use “the eternity formulae” which he had previously explained as “the course of the world” perceived as “a series of smaller aiones” (p.203). Sasse also refers to the use of aionios in Philemon 15, which he feels “reminds us of the non-biblical usage” of this word, which he had earlier found to signify “lifelong” or “enduring” (p.208). The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

 

[ClementofA]

I believe Christians will live forever. I find no puzzle in Paul speaking of Christians who are reconciled "have [each other] back forever," and literally mean that they'll both live literally forever.

To use Scriptural language Christians obtain both aionios life and immortality. Aionios life is spoken of by Christ as being obtained in the aion to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30). Yet Paul speaks of multiple aions to come (Eph.1:21; 2:7). Therefore aionios life could refer to life pertaining to an aion to come, an aion which is finite & followed by one or more aions. So the reference to aionios in Philemon 1:15 need not be understood as meaning "forever", even if the reference is to anything beyond the slave being his masters after this life.

Aionios life is also contrasted with aionios correction or punishment (Mt.25:46). JI Packer states aionios means “belonging to the age to come”. Eventually all recieve "life", righteousness & justification (Rom.5:18-19).

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[he-man]

*Gives you a big hug*
I just want you to know I care about you and that I do not wish to be upset or on the defensive.I apologize if I appear to be a little touchy with this particular subject. I have my reasons for the way I feel on this topic. Sometimes it is appropriate to share why, but I think in this instance, I may let it go.
Anyways, to help give you a glimpse of what I believe in regards to interpretating God's Word: Well, there are several factors I take into consideration. #1. There is one Word of God (and it existed in various languages through out time perfectly) because it is a divine document. It is perfect because it is God's Word. Whether you agree with me or not, I believe the KJV (1769) is the perfect Word of God for our world language today (i.e. English). I believe the Word of God existed perfectly also in the Latin (not the Catholic version), the Greek, and the Hebrew. There are several reasons I believe the KJV is divine (like it's predecessors). First, the Word of God says that it is perfect and that it would be preserved for all generations; And we learn that God once before had translated people's languages perfectly in Acts of the Apostles 2. Second, I believe that the KJV is superior comparing it with the Modern Translations. In fact, many Modern Translations have the devil's name within them. Three, biblical numerics (i.e. not numerology and not the use of numbers to tell the future) also proves the KJV is divine (just like it does with the Greek). For the numbers have one major purpose in God's Word. To glorify His Word and to show us that it is divine. #2. Context. This is the surrounding verses and or chapters of a verse or passage that helps shed light on what is being said more clearly. #3. Cross References. If there is a particular truth taught in the Bible, chances are it is taught elsewere in another part of the Bible in another verse or passage. I use OpenBible.org because they sometimes seem to have more cross references than other Bible websites. #4. Prayer. Jeremiah 33:3 says, "Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not." There are times when my faith was tested in God's Word. Where I had thought I had seen a contradiction, I prayed and asked God to show me what His Word was really saying. Sometimes I would keep praying, and it would take days, or even weeks to figure it out. In some other rare cases, it was months. But God has always come through for me. #5. I am willing to admit there are some things that are just not revealed in the Scriptures. I do not need to have all the answers if God has not given them to us within His Word. In other words, I believe it is good not to go beyond what is written in God's Word. #6. God's goodness or morality. Does the verse, passage, or biblical truth support God's goodness or common basic morality? #7. Read tons of articles on the internet by various Christians. Sometimes I do not stop searching until I feel God has revealed His truth to me. One example is John 19:14 and the sixth hour. Many just write this off as an error within the text; But I believe God's Word (the KJV) is divine. So it is a matter of faith for me. I kept searching for about a week and a half reading various articles. In fact, I thought I had a workable solution to the problem but God showed me otherwise a year or so later by my reading another article. What was that solution? Well, Jesus is judged by Pilate (a Roman) early in the morning. He is then whipped and mocked. After six hours have past from the starting point of the previous night of the 1st hour of when Christ is betrayed into the hands of sinners (1st hour: Matthew 26:45) (Sixth hour: John 19:14): Pilate sets Jesus before a Jewish audience and says to them, “Behold your king!” Then at 9:00AM (third hour): Jesus is crucified. In other words, the sixth hour is counted from the starting point of the 1st hour of when he was betrayed into the hands of sinners. The sixth hour is counted from this point. #8. Do a keyword study at BlueLetterBible and look up the etymology of the word. I believe both the original languages and the English do not conflict with each other and that they breath in harmony and say the same thing essentially. Anyways, I hope this helps you to see where I am coming from. May God bless you in all good that you do for the Lord.
With loving kindness to you in Christ,
Sincerely, ~ Jason.

Thanks for being sincere, I do appreciate that and it is good to hear that you are ready to accept exactly what the Bible says. Her are a few references you might find useful: The Greek N.T. 4th Revised edition with dictionary, United BibleSociety; Codex Sinaitcus; Codex Vaticanus; Brezae's Novum Testamentun 1565; Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich Dictionary; A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, Bercot; The Codex Sinaitcus is the only complete uncial manuscript of the N.T. and Old Testament. It is in general agreement with the Codex Vaticanus, and Nomna Sacra are used truoughout. For instance they both omit the word εικη, (without cause, without reason, in vain) from Matthew 5:22. In John 1:3-4, it is in agreement with Bezae, the only Greek manuscripts with textual variant, εω αθτω ζωη εστιν (in him was life). Codex Sinaiticus - New World Encyclopedia .
The O.T. includes the translation of the Septuagint. Sacred Texts: Codex Sinaiticus .Translating direct from the Greek of the Septuagint, shoel was NOT seperated from God: Psalms 139:7-8. Hebrew for punish has 10 different meanings, none of which carries out the meaning of punishment in English. "Pagad" used 31 times as punish simply means to visit or to remember. The word "anash" used 5 times , simply means to urge or compel; "cashak" used 3 times means to restrain; "avown" used 12 times means sin. This also implies the cost or penalty for beinging evil or causing offense. One interesting word translated as punish, "yakar", means to chastise, but also means "to add value", as in to chasitise a child makes him more valuable. None of the words used indicate that it is God who does the punishing. The translators' own incorrect words clouded their objectivity, an all too frequent occurance, with virtually all Western Bibles,( KJV, etc) In Lazarus and the Rich man, Jesus clearly states they both end up in the same place, in Hades. Hades is used the same as Sheol, the place everyone goes to when they die. In 1 Corinthians 15:55 Hades is incorrectly translated as the "grave" another point of inconsistency. The Greek word "devine" from theion, could also mean "devine being" but also means "sulfur", or in Old English, "brimstone" [lit burning stone]. Yet the word theion is translated as brimestone or sulfur, in Luke 17:29, Revelation 9:17; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 20:10; Revelation 21:8, and it is equally interchangeable with the words, "devine fire' but did not fit the translators' preconceived idea, so it was rendered "brimwstone" in this context. 2 Peter 3:7 saved by fire on the day of judgement and destruction of impious men. Morevoer why would God create a place just to punish people ? That is not the nature of a loving God as 2 Thessalonians 1:9 shows the destruction shall be eternal and Psalms 21:9 implies the same. The cause of the penalty is the poor choices we make, not God. If one thinks of these places as conditions that we choose to be in rather than "compartments" God puts us in it would be more accurate. 1 Peter 3:19 says he preached to the "spirits" in prison. Jesus could not have preached to anyone because he was dead and his body lay in the tomb, Matthew 12:40; Solomon clearly tells us the dead know not nothing Ecclesiastes 12:7; Psalms 146:4; Psalms 104:29; Job 14:20-21. God Bless you in your search for "true" truth!

 

[ClementofA]

I believe the Lake of Fire will eventually destroy both body and soul the wicked AND the devil and his minions. But I believe it is highly likely that the wicked will be punished for a set amount of time (that is unknown) in proportion to their sins in the Lake of Fire before they are destroyed or erased from existence. This is based on two passages.

In Isaiah 66, we read on the "Final New Earth" (after the Judgment) that a certain amount of Sabbaths (weekly Sabbaths) and or new moons (months) will pass before the saints view the carcases of the wicked.

22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." (Isaiah 66:22-24).

(1) First of all, Isa.66:22-24 makes no mention of what has become of the souls of the "corpses" referred to:

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(2) Secondly, nothing in verses 22-24 says verses 23 & 24 refer to the lake of fire or the new earth. Consider Option A at the following re a premillennial take on Isa.65 & 66:

Isaiah 65-66: The Vision (Part 3) - Wasilla Bible Church

(3) I wonder how "corpses" (v.24) would survive in a lake of fire. Or worms (v.24) . OTOH worms could survive in a millennial eon garbage dump called Gehenna. As could "corpses" survive that were in parts of the garbage dump that were not completely consumed by fire.

(4) If it were the new earth, why does verse 23 refer to new moons and the sabbath?

“The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee; but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory” (Isa.60:19)

Rev.21:22 But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

(5) Even if the reference is to the new earth, if there are still "corpses" of the dead in the lake of fire, how is it that death has already been abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28)?

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

(6) For an interesting take on our passage, there is this alleged view:

"It is interesting that many of these comments touch on the concept that is well-articulated by C.S. Lewis' mentor, George McDonald, in his sermon, "The Consuming Fire." The concept is that God himself is the consuming fire and he will burn away all our iniquities, including those of Satan, who will emerge from the experience as the purified Lucifer, as he was created to be. This is what is pictured in Isaiah 66:24 where all beings will look upon their old selves as carcasses burning in God's eternally consuming fire. To understand this picture one must realize that the perspective is that of a totally redeemed eternal being looking back on his or her past life and sensing some regret for their own sins."

Origen on the Salvation of the Devil

7) In any case, when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28) & all are made new (Rev.21:5, 5:13), the dead in the second death (lake of fire) will rise back to life "in Christ" & God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22,28). IOW there will be universal salvation of every person that has ever lived since Adam was created.

7 Myths About Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

This is further supported by the fact that Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), which suggests that there were other enemies of God that the Lord destroyed before this last enemy.

All unsaved sinful beings are enemies of God. That doesn't mean God will "destroy" or endlessly annihilate them. A Christian was once an enemy of God. How did God "destroy" him? By making him a new creation. There is nothing in 1 Cor.15:26 saying God will endlessly annihilate any human or angelic being He created & loves. The only enemies that will be annihilated are - things - like sin, suffering, rebellion, darkness and death.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Love Wins Because God Is Love… | For Whom nothing is impossible…Love NEVER Fails!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Going to "hell" isn't a "consequence"? It doesn't matter?

Everyone isn't going to be saved - from going to "hell". Are your efforts going to save anyone? Or is that up to their choice or God's will? What do your efforts matter? Does God depend upon you to get people saved? Are you the Saviour of the world?

If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to? Does His love have an expiry date like a carton of milk?

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
Statement of Faith -- Please Read

First, God does the good work of salvation through His people. Not sure why you would think I would think otherwise. Second, if you believe in a hell and that people will go there, and yet you also believe in Universalism, I take it that hell is sort of like a purgatory where it is temporal. If such is the case, I would say again that your efforts are wasted. All people will eventually be saved and have the knowledge of God that you are trying to show them. Nothing you do really matters in the long run. Sure, some may suffer for a certain amount of time, but that is a drop in the bucket compared to eternity (if they are going to be saved eventually). In other words, the problem with your belief is that what you do here does not ultimately matter in the grand scheme of eternity. Your belief leads to apathy and indifference to the things of God. That is why I will not debate with you. To me: What your doing is illogical if you believe Universalism is true. For in your book: Everyone is saved! Whooo hooo! You really do not need to care. Move on with your life! That is what Universalism is ultimately teaching here. Believers experience suffering here as being a good thing for God's Kingdom. So if hell is temporary, it does not really matter. All will eventually be saved. Yet, that is not what God's Word teaches (of course).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thanks for being sincere, I do appreciate that and it is good to hear that you are ready to accept exactly what the Bible says. Her are a few references you might find useful: The Greek N.T. 4th Revised edition with dictionary, United BibleSociety; Codex Sinaitcus; Codex Vaticanus; Brezae's Novum Testamentun 1565; Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich Dictionary; A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, Bercot; The Codex Sinaitcus is the only complete uncial manuscript of the N.T. and Old Testament. It is in general agreement with the Codex Vaticanus, and Nomna Sacra are used truoughout. For instance they both omit the word εικη, (without cause, without reason, in vain) from Matthew 5:22. In John 1:3-4, it is in agreement with Bezae, the only Greek manuscripts with textual variant, εω αθτω ζωη εστιν (in him was life). Codex Sinaiticus - New World Encyclopedia .
The O.T. includes the translation of the Septuagint. Sacred Texts: Codex Sinaiticus .Translating direct from the Greek of the Septuagint, shoel was NOT seperated from God: Psalms 139:7-8. Hebrew for punish has 10 different meanings, none of which carries out the meaning of punishment in English. "Pagad" used 31 times as punish simply means to visit or to remember. The word "anash" used 5 times , simply means to urge or compel; "cashak" used 3 times means to restrain; "avown" used 12 times means sin. This also implies the cost or penalty for beinging evil or causing offense. One interesting word translated as punish, "yakar", means to chastise, but also means "to add value", as in to chasitise a child makes him more valuable. None of the words used indicate that it is God who does the punishing. The translators' own incorrect words clouded their objectivity, an all too frequent occurance, with virtually all Western Bibles,( KJV, etc) In Lazarus and the Rich man, Jesus clearly states they both end up in the same place, in Hades. Hades is used the same as Sheol, the place everyone goes to when they die. In 1 Corinthians 15:55 Hades is incorrectly translated as the "grave" another point of inconsistency. The Greek word "devine" from theion, could also mean "devine being" but also means "sulfur", or in Old English, "brimstone" [lit burning stone]. Yet the word theion is translated as brimestone or sulfur, in Luke 17:29, Revelation 9:17; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 20:10; Revelation 21:8, and it is equally interchangeable with the words, "devine fire' but did not fit the translators' preconceived idea, so it was rendered "brimwstone" in this context. 2 Peter 3:7 saved by fire on the day of judgement and destruction of impious men. Morevoer why would God create a place just to punish people ? That is not the nature of a loving God as 2 Thessalonians 1:9 shows the destruction shall be eternal and Psalms 21:9 implies the same. The cause of the penalty is the poor choices we make, not God. If one thinks of these places as conditions that we choose to be in rather than "compartments" God puts us in it would be more accurate. 1 Peter 3:19 says he preached to the "spirits" in prison. Jesus could not have preached to anyone because he was dead and his body lay in the tomb, Matthew 12:40; Solomon clearly tells us the dead know not nothing Ecclesiastes 12:7; Psalms 146:4; Psalms 104:29; Job 14:20-21. God Bless you in your search for "true" truth!

There are Three Scriptural Reasons to Trust in A Perfect Word Today.

#1. God's Word claims that it is perfect
God's Word claims that it is perfect (Psalms 12:6) (Psalms 119:140) (Proverbs 30:5) and that it will be preserved for all generations (Psalms 12:7) and it will stand forever (Isaiah 40:8) (1 Peter 1:25). Therefore, seeing Scripture plainly states these facts, it then becomes an issue of a test of your faith in God's Word (See the test the devil gave to Eve in Genesis 3:1); For the Bereans were more noble because they compared the spoken Word of God with the written Word of God (Acts 17:11). In other words, if the Bereans thought the written Word was corrupt in some way they would have no way of really knowing if the spoken Word of God was true or not.

#2. KJV vs. Modern Translations
A simple side by side comparison of the KJV vs Modern Translations shows us that the devil tries to place his name in the Modern Versions. Have no idea what I am talking about?

Well, many Bible versions say that it is the dragon who is standing on the sea shore in Revelation. This is just evil and wrong.

See Parallel Version for Revelation 13:1 here.

Revelation 13:1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

See, if you know anything about Bible language, standing on something means that you "own it"; And the devil wants to own you. In the King James, John is standing on the seashore. Yet in many Bible versions the dragon (i.e. the devil) is standing on the seashore.

Why is this a problem?

Let's look at...

Genesis 22:17

"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;"

Did you catch that? God says to Abraham that He will multiply his seed as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is upon the seashore where he will then possess the gate of his enemies (i.e. the devil and his kingdom). The apostle John who wrote Revelation was Jewish and he was the promised seed of Genesis 22 standing on the seashore in Revelation 13. It was not the dragon or the devil standing on the seashore.

For certain Modern Versions eliminate the part of the passage in Revelation 13:1 that says that John is standing on the seashore (When he refers to himself as "I").

Also, the devil tries to take out key points in important discussions within the Bible (Which can affect doctrine). For example: In Romans 7 Paul talks from the Jew's perspective in keeping the Old Testament Law (Which leads to problems), and he gives us the climax or heart of his message as a solution in Romans 8:1. Now, certain modern translations have eliminated "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Eliminating this passage destroys the whole thrust of Paul's argument. Walking in the Spirit is the key to being in Christ Jesus. You eliminate that and you destroy Paul's argument. Also, 1 John 5:7 is the only verse in the Bible that is the clearest and most concise teaching on the Godhead (i.e. the Trinity).

#3. Biblical Numerics
Bible Numbers that glorify God and His Word. (Note: These are not equidistant letter sequences or numbers that attempt to get one to have a special dream, or to divine the future in some way - Striving to foretell the future is forbidden in the Bible). Numbers are something that we deal with in our everyday life and all things glorify God. So obviously the numbers in God's Word would naturally glorify Him in some way. What am I talking about? Check out this video on Numbers in the Greek New Testament.

Sevens in the Bible - Chuck Missler:

Also, here is a video series by Mike Hoggard that talks about the number 7 in the King James.

King James Code - Number 7 - Mike Hoggard (Part 1):

King James Code - Number 7 - Mike Hoggard (Part 2):

Now, while I may not agree with Mike on everything he teaches in the Bible nor on the way he teaches Bible numbers in every example, I have found that he has made some startling discoveries. Discoveries that do not appear in the modern translations but only in the King James. Also, on another note: I do not believer everything Chuck Missler teaches or believes, either (Especially his belief in Eternal Security).

Anyways, I believe the 1769 KJV is the Word of God for our world language (English) today. In 1611, the printing process was not perfected yet and there was no set standard in spelling yet, either.

From my experience, I have discovered that there are two wrong extremes on this topic. One wrong extreme says the KJV is evil and to even use it is to be a part of a cult (That teaches that one must worship a book - Which is simply not true). The other wrong extreme says the same thing. For I have found that many KJV-Onlyists believe that you should only read the King James. Many other KJV-Onlyists will also say that the King James is not all that hard to understand, too. However, I disagree with both of these conclusions, though.

Anyways, while I believe the KJV is the divinely inspired Word of God, I do not think one should stick to just reading it alone. For I have found Modern Translations to be very helpful in updating the language (From Old English); However, I do not put my entire trust in Modern Translations because the devil has placed his name all over them and key doctrines have been watered down and important messages within God's Word have been neutered.

In other words, I read Modern Translations as if I am panning for gold. I have to sift thru the dirt or the garbage in order to get to the gold of the passage that lines up with the King James (and the original Hebrew and Greek).

This gold that is found within the dirt of the translations can be very useful because it reflects what is in the King James. This is the gold that people hear and are saved when they hear the gospel message. For someone can be saved just by hearing a few Bible verses about the gospel message of Jesus Christ. This gold shines thru and penetrates their heart.

Like the Parable of the Sower. Believers receive the Word of God into their heart from those passages that are talking about salvation. Words that line up with the King James. These words are sown in their heart. And if they let this Word take root in their heart by continually reading the Word of God, then they will have hidden His Word in their heart so they will not sin against Him. It will have taken root and they will not fall away due to persecution or the trials of this life.

For it only takes a few Bible verses to get someone saved. However, washing yourself with the water of the Word is going to be a lot more effective if you use the pure Word of God.

 

[he-man]

There are Three Scriptural Reasons to Trust in A Perfect Word Today.

#1. God's Word claims that it is perfect
God's Word claims that it is perfect (Psalms 12:6) (Psalms 119:140) (Proverbs 30:5) and that it will be preserved for all generations (Psalms 12:7) and it will stand forever (Isaiah 40:8) (1 Peter 1:25). Therefore, seeing Scripture plainly states these facts, it then becomes an issue of a test of your faith in God's Word (See the test the devil gave to Eve in Genesis 3:1); For the Bereans were more noble because they compared the spoken Word of God with the written Word of God (Acts 17:11). In other words, if the Bereans thought the written Word was corrupt in some way they would have no way of really knowing if the spoken Word of God was true or not.
#2. KJV vs. Modern Translations
A simple side by side comparison of the KJV vs Modern Translations shows us that the devil tries to place his name in the Modern Versions. Have no idea what I am talking about? Well, many Bible versions say that it is the dragon who is standing on the sea shore in Revelation. This is just evil and wrong.See Parallel Version for Revelation 13:1 here. Revelation 13:1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.See, if you know anything about Bible language, standing on something means that you "own it"; And the devil wants to own you. In the King James, John is standing on the seashore. Yet in many Bible versions the dragon (i.e. the devil) is standing on the seashore. Why is this a problem? Let's look at... Genesis 22:17 "That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;"
Did you catch that? God says to Abraham that He will multiply his seed as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is upon the seashore where he will then possess the gate of his enemies (i.e. the devil and his kingdom). The apostle John who wrote Revelation was Jewish and he was the promised seed of Genesis 22 standing on the seashore in Revelation 13. It was not the dragon or the devil standing on the seashore. For certain Modern Versions eliminate the part of the passage in Revelation 13:1 that says that John is standing on the seashore (When he refers to himself as "I"). Also, the devil tries to take out key points in important discussions within the Bible (Which can affect doctrine). For example: In Romans 7 Paul talks from the Jew's perspective in keeping the Old Testament Law (Which leads to problems), and he gives us the climax or heart of his message as a solution in Romans 8:1. Now, certain modern translations have eliminated "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Eliminating this passage destroys the whole thrust of Paul's argument. Walking in the Spirit is the key to being in Christ Jesus. You eliminate that and you destroy Paul's argument.

Jason thank you for replying and regarding Rev 13:1 KJV it is correct to say "I", meaning John was standing there, however Romans 8:1 is a faulty translation and the words "who walk after the flesh, but after the spirit", are not included in any of the early manuscripts.

Also, 1 John 5:7 is the only verse in the Bible that is the clearest and most concise teaching on the Godhead (i.e. the Trinity).

Sorry but 1 John 5:7-8 are spurious and were not included in the early manuscripts.. The KJV is based on the TR and is based only on a few manuscripts, and in some cases has no manuscript support, whatever. A text closer to the autographs is available today in over 5,000 manuscripts. The Textus Receptus was used as the KJV basis, which was compiled with 12th-15th Century minuscule manuscripts. Erasmus included the 1 John 5:7-8 Comma, because he did not want his reputation ruined over a minor detail, thougn he notes in his Annotationes that he did not believe the Comma was genuine. Also it was not cited in the 4th Century Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). The Old Scofield Bible says that it "has no real authority and has been inserted" Pp. 1325.

Anyways, I believe the 1769 KJV is the Word of God for our world language (English) today. In 1611, the printing process was not perfected yet and there was no set standard in spelling yet, either. From my experience, I have discovered that there are two wrong extremes on this topic. One wrong extreme says the KJV is evil and to even use it is to be a part of a cult (That teaches that one must worship a book - Which is simply not true). The other wrong extreme says the same thing. For I have found that many KJV-Onlyists believe that you should only read the King James. Many other KJV-Onlyists will also say that the King James is not all that hard to understand, too. However, I disagree with both of these conclusions, though.
Anyways, while I believe the KJV is the divinely inspired Word of God, I do not think one should stick to just reading it alone. For I have found Modern Translations to be very helpful in updating the language (From Old English); However, I do not put my entire trust in Modern Translations because the devil has placed his name all over them and key doctrines have been watered down and important messages within God's Word have been neutered. In other words, I read Modern Translations as if I am panning for gold. I have to sift thru the dirt or the garbage in order to get to the gold of the passage that lines up with the King James (and the original Hebrew and Greek). This gold that is found within the dirt of the translations can be very useful because it reflects what is in the King James. This is the gold that people hear and are saved when they hear the gospel message. For someone can be saved just by hearing a few Bible verses about the gospel message of Jesus Christ. This gold shines thru and penetrates their heart. Like the Parable of the Sower. Believers receive the Word of God into their heart from those passages that are talking about salvation. Words that line up with the King James. These words are sown in their heart. And if they let this Word take root in their heart by continually reading the Word of God, then they will have hidden His Word in their heart so they will not sin against Him. It will have taken root and they will not fall away due to persecution or the trials of this life. For it only takes a few Bible verses to get someone saved. However, washing yourself with the water of the Word is going to be a lot more effective if you use the pure Word of God.

Indeed, the heart accounts for many things we sometimes miss. However, compare this text with your KJV. Revelation 17:4 the last verse should have read: full of idolatrous pollutions and the impurities of her lewdness. The manuscripts support ακαθαρτα (impure) yet the KJV uses the greek word supplied incorrectly by the TR as ακαθαπτητος, and is still used today by the KJV and the Tritiarian Bible Society. In Revelation 17:8 , the KJV reads in the last of the verse: "and yet is", και περ εστις also incorrect and imported from the TR. It is properly "and is to come", και περεστις

 

[pat34lee]

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Exactly. Cut off from the tribe and covenant.
Does it say he will go to hell?

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[ClementofA]

if you believe in a hell and that people will go there, and yet you also believe in Universalism, I take it that hell is sort of like a purgatory where it is temporal. If such is the case, I would say again that your efforts are wasted.

Why are efforts wasted? If you had a child would it not matter to you if she went to hell first rather than directly to heaven?

All people will eventually be saved and have the knowledge of God that you are trying to show them. Nothing you do really matters in the long run.

It matters in the short run. Therefore it matters & what humans do matters.

In other words, the problem with your belief is that what you do here does not ultimately matter in the grand scheme of eternity.

The truth is never a "problem". It's to the glory of God. His love doesn't expire like a carton of milk. As in antibiblical Endless Damnationist dogmas (unending torments and endless annihilationism).

Your belief leads to apathy and indifference to the things of God.

You've provided no evidence of that. All you see is the negative motive of fear. What you don't see is the powerful positive motivation of love in serving a truly loving God Who is worthy of being loved. Not the false caricature of God that has turned so many Christians & church goers in disgust away from God. That causes many millions of unbelievers to mock and never even consider the gospel (good news, not your horrific news). That's what your belief leads to. Love Omnipotent is not an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who so easily & eternally abandons the beings He created in His own image & likeness & suffered for.

That is why I will not debate with you. To me: What your doing is illogical if you believe Universalism is true. For in your book: Everyone is saved! Whooo hooo! You really do not need to care. Move on with your life! That is what Universalism is ultimately teaching here. Believers experience suffering here as being a good thing for God's Kingdom. So if hell is temporary, it does not really matter. All will eventually be saved. Yet, that is not what God's Word teaches (of course).

Everyone is not saved now & you've failed to show anything illogical. What's illogical is why you deny Love Omnipotent will eventually save all. Is it because He is not powerful enough or because He doesn't want to?

Your fallen human reasoning, however, recalls where many people's hearts are at with regard to Jesus, i.e. only as a fire insurance policy. Or, in the case of others, an endless nonexistence policy. A question could be asked: are such people even saved?

If everyone thought like you, there would be no one arguing against the universal salvation position based on the Scriptures. Clearly all the apologists who argue against universalism using the Bible do not agree with your "logic". You alone are the only one i've ever heard use such an argument. Evidently with good reason.

Universal salvation is the teaching of God's Word. Therefore i proclaim it. Your fallen human reasonings on this subject don't matter, are illogical & irrelevant:

Isa.55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

1Tim.4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

7 Myths About Universalism