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Featured Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, Jul 28, 2017.

  1. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    Brother, with all respect, how does this fit as a reaction to what Mark's told you from the Bible? When did he suggest that God annihilates those who were useful but become un-useful?
     
  2. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Scripture is written to give you KNOWLEDGE. KNOWLEDGE.

    Any natural born carnal man can hear or read the KNOWLEDGE.

    Any natural born carnal man can THEN try to figure out , ie interpret, conclude what he thinks, the meaning and UNDERSTANDING of the knowledge.

    HOW does a natural born carnal man come to HIS UNDERSTANDING of the knowledge?

    If you say; by using his carnal mind, thinking, weighing between this and that of what seems logical to HIM, you would be correct.

    But guess what...

    Rom 8 [7] ... the carnal mind is enmity against God:

    See a dilemma?

    Do you know how to solve the dilemma?

    First you have to recognize God IS Spirit and HIS UNDERSTANDING is SPIRITUAL.

    Then you have to know HOW TO GET, receive, have, HIS UNDERSTANDING.

    There is ONLY ONE WAY, for you to "GET" HIS UNDERSTANDING.

    He has to "GIVE" it to you.

    IF, you ARE forgiven, saved, born again of God, your spirit has been quickened, which means YOU are now a candidate to receive Gods SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING.

    Then YOU, hear, read, study the scriptures, and WHEN you want to understand the scriptures according to Gods Spiritual Understanding....with YOUR quickened spirit, YOU ASK GODS SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, for HIS SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING. Be diligent, patient, seek, ask, He is faithful and will give to you what you ask.

    Your answer will come to your spirit , in your heart, NOT YOUR MIND.
    It is your job to listen to your heart, and conform your minds thoughts to your hearts thoughts, so your mind effectively becomes like the mind of Christ.

    The spirit of your mind term found in scripture IS a carnal mind that is being transformed by repeatedly receiving the spiritual knowledge and understanding from their spirit in their heart, given them BY Gods Spirit.

    God does not want men with HIS Spirit to be ignorant of His understanding, yet so many who claim to be born of God, are still relying on their carnal mind to try and understand the scriptures. Why?

    When they became converted and submitted to God, was there SOMETHING in Scripture that said, He gave them a NEW MIND? Use it and try to figure out what Gods Wisdom and Understanding is?
    No and No.

    His Understanding is a GIFT, reserved for the FAITHFUL, and WHY, no matter how well read of the scriptures a man is, Satan is, IF one does not have the Spirit of God IN THEM, they will FAIL at trying to FIGURE out His understanding.

    When I say, angels are spirits, and spirits never die, that is a true fact.
    And you best hope that is true, since it is God who quickens your own spirit, that shall NEVER Die.

    When I say, angels who have rebelled against God, ie fallen angels, are DEAD TO GOD.
    They are NOT physical beings nor subject to a physical death.
    TO GOD, ie ACCORDING TO GOD, BY HIS SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING, GOD ACCOUNTS THEM AS DEAD TO HIM.

    God is preparing a PLACE for all of HIS creations FAITHFUL to HIM!
    IF an angel, IF a man IS NOT WITH HIM, they are AGAINST HIM, and accounted BY HIM as DEAD TO HIM, whether or not they are living.

    Before a man IS born again, HE IS DEAD TO GOD!
    DEAD to GOD, without GOD.
    And IF a man becomes born again, HIS BODY IS STILL DEAD TO GOD, dead IN CHRIST, and by and though Christ do they live.

    Col 1
    [9] For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  3. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    That was a long and unscriptural lecture, and I don't understand why you're using bold underline; it looks like yelling, which doesn't seem right for you to do to me. You and I were discussing the Scripture's teaching about angels which the Bible says will die and you say will not die. It almost sounds like you think I'm unregenerate, and I don't think I've done anything to deserve that.

    No, that's not "a true fact;" it is your summary of what you believe the Scripture teaches. I respect what you believe, but I'm engaging you at the level of what the Scripture teaches, not at the level of what you believe.

    What are you trying to quote here? Our hope is never stated to be that God will quicken our spirit that will never die; it's that the Spirit who raised up Christ will also raise up our mortal bodies so that we will never die (1 Cor 15, Rom 8).

    I don't understand why this is so important to you that it's worth all-uppercase; it wasn't important enough for the Bible to ever say.

    Ok, perhaps this is true, but the Bible also says that God will kill the wicked, and that He will kill at least the guardian cherub we talked about. Surely you don't think "God will kill" means "God will reckon them dead even though they're actually alive"?
     
  4. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    I will respond to your complaints and accusations later.
    I live out in the woods, and today, my reception is crummy,and my computer is pretty much not cooperating, but you can be offended and I'll apologize for attempting to give you what didn't interest you.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  5. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    I did not tell you I wasn't interested, and you shouldn't tell me what my interests are. I'd rather you discuss the Scripture behind what you said rather than just all-upper-casing me and telling me I need to get Spirit-filled so I can agree with you.

    I can see from your other posts you're keenly interested in what the Bible says, so I have reason to expect more from you.

    Can we discuss the passage of scripture we were both talking about, Luke 20? Failing that, can we stick to Scripture?
     
  6. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Sorry Bro but the Angels are in heaven and since no man has yet ascended unto heaven but Christ, you are barking up the wrong tree. I also quoted Nehemiah 9:6 to show that God created all things, including all the host of beings. As well as Isaiah 45:18 and Revelation 4:11. 1 Tinothy 6:16 is about God, who only hath immortality, whom no man has ever seen. Good bye to the theory of it being Christ or anyone. And don't forget Isaiah 54:16 God created the destroyer to destroy and that means God controls all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  7. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to correct me on. I did not say that angels aren't in heaven, nor did I say that anyone aside from Jesus ascended to heaven. None of that has anything to do with what I was discussing, which is the fact that it seems that God promises that some angels will die and be no more.
     
  8. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    1 Corinthians 15:28 and 1 Corinthians 11:3 says Christ will be subject to God and God will be all in all. 1 Peter 3:22 says all Angels are subject to Christ and 1 Corinthians 3:23 says God is the head of Christ as does Ephesians 5:23, so Luke 20 means God only has immortality.
     
  9. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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  10. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    According to the beattitudes, The Father of Jesus is kind to those who are evil to him. So what manner of god would just annihilate? Not the Father of Jesus, but a being like that would annihilate you.
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I am not much of a history buff. I am just a Bible guy. I used to believe in Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) and I even defended it at one time. I then learned of the Conditional Immortality, and I was on the fence for a good while between ECT and CI (Conditional Immortality). Then one day when I started looking at more verses for Conditional Immortality from reading a really good article, I was convinced that it was true. What helped me to be convinced even more beyond this was the fact that Conditional Immortality is moral, just, and good (Whereas ECT attempts to turn God into some kind of monster), as well. For I believe every teaching or Godly truth in the Bible should always be good, just, and moral.

    I believe in reading and using Modern Translations, but my final Word of authority is the KJV. So if the KJV says "forever" I believe that. But words from the 1600's don't always have the same meaning as they do today; And we have to sometimes think outside the box to see what God is really telling us, as well.

    This is why I believe the word "forever" is used in context of within something that is temporary, like a Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place or form of punishment). It is "forever" for as long as that thing exists. For example: A husband might say to his wife that he will be her man forever. This is context to as long as they live (of course). Forever is in context as long as they live. It is a metaphorical expression.

    For are we to assume that Onesimus is still alive with his master today according to Philemon 1:15? Surely not. Onesimus return back to his master for "forever" was not for all eternity. The word "forever" in Philemon 1:15 is clearly in context to as long as Onesimus would live.

    As for the English word "hell" in Matthew 10:28 taken from the Greek word "Gehenna" meaning the "Lake of Fire": While it is helpful to look to the Greek to get a clearer picture of what Matthew 10:28 is saying, I believe the "Lake of Fire" (Gehenna) can also be called "hell" (even though "hell" will be cast into the Lake of Fire). How so?

    Well, "hell" is sort of like an island sitting atop of the Lake of Fire. The Earth's core is like a big fiery hot ball. The great gulf is an opening or crack in hell's surface letting some of the flame from below (in the Lake of Fire) to show (Whereby the Richman is tormented by the heat of it).

    Deuteronomy 32:22
    "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."
    In other words, the lowest "hell" is the Lake of Fire.

    Isaiah 34:14
    "The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest."
    And the wild beasts, the satyr, and the screech owl in this passage are demons. The wild beasts of the island are those demons on the island of "hell" below.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  12. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your link is not working Jason & at least some of the examples above appear to be almost or completely word for word the same as i've seen on universalist sites.

    Most lexicons disagree with the notion that the Hebrew & Greek words OLAM & AION mean "forever" according to how you appear to understand it. They indicate that the word has various meanings according to context, not one single basic meaning unless used in hyperbole. The hyperbole theory has been recently refuted in the other thread started by Mark that has been getting activity on this forum recently:

    What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

    That is easily proven by passages that speak of their "end", e.g. the "end of the AION" (Mt.24:3). Something that has an "end" cannot be endless or forever.

    The "forever" theory also leads to contradictions in the Scriptures, such as Dan.12:2 with Lamentations 3:

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies never come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

    Which opposes the theory of endless annihilationism, as do many other passages of the Scriptures.

    ______________________


    1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?
    "...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
    "It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."
    "...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

    Forum
    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  13. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    The Father is indeed kind to all; He describes His kindness in many places. He provides life, food, rain... What He _also_ consistently says is that it is not good that fallen man would live forever (Gen 3:22). It's good that he lives -- it's not good that he live forever.

    For this reason, God says that the unrepentant, who die in their sins, must die; not because He likes the idea (contrary to your claim), but because this is the meaning of the finite gift of life God has given.
     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In the Scriptures as a whole Jesus, the Word of God, teaches universalism.




    There were different beliefs. Thanks for that admission.



    Nothing there states a belief in either endless torments or endless annihilation.

    Nothing there says what was believed at exactly the time of Christ's ministry (circa 30 A.D.) by the Pharisees or Essenes or Sadducees or other Jews.

    Why should your sources even be trusted as if inerrant, truthful or unbiased?

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  15. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    The context in which /olam/ does mean "forever" is the phrase /l'olam/, and the context in which /aion/ means "forever" is the phrase /eis ton aiona/. You've implied that "most lexicons disagree", but this isn't true; lexicons that list stock phrases such as /eis ton aiona/ all list its translation as "forever". Examples include LSJ and BDAG. (The lexicons that don't list this are simply incomplete and misleading.)

    The word /olam/ in isolation can mean other things -- but not the phrase.

    There's so much wrong about this I don't know where to start.

    Conditional immortality is not "the theory of endless annihilationism." It's simply the fact that God says man's life is limited. If we waste it seeking our own life, we will lose our life. There's no endlessness to the punishing of the wicked; God doesn't keep on keeping people annihilated. Once their life is destroyed, that's it for them.

    However, read the passage you've quoted, in context. This is not about people in general, but about God's faithful among the covenant-breakers. The faithful and unfaithful alike were being punished, but the faithful knew that God would remember them. The unfaithful did not know that.
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    William, your confusing my response to Jason's argument with something quite different. Apples & oranges. If you want to take up the "eis ton aiona" phrase discussion again, something which neither Jason or I made reference to, my last response to you is still awaiting a reply. Post #484 of August 10/17 of this same thread we are in @

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    Additionally i would argue for the position that the Greek phrase often mistranslated, & deceptively rendered, "for ever and ever" in the book of Revelation is of finite duration, as per posts #'s 130 and 131 here:

    What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Did i coin a new phrase? I'm wondering how i came up with it. I recall speaking with JW's who believe when a person dies they essentially cease to exist. They are no more, obliterated, annihilated. Until the resurrection when God, in JW theology, re-creates them from His memories & the dust of the earth. Then, for the wicked, He judges and annihilates them again, i.e. second death. Only this time it is permanent, endless. Hence endless annihilation.

    The first entry on a search engine brings up this definition of "annihilation":

    "complete destruction or obliteration.
    "the threat of global annihilation" "

    And from Webster's:

    a : to cause to cease to exist : to do away with entirely so that nothing remains
    b : to destroy a considerable part of Bombs annihilated the city. The enemy troops were annihilated.
    c : to defeat overwhelmingly : rout annihilated the visitors 56–0

    Definition of ANNIHILATE

    The doctrine of annihilationism:

    "Annihilationism (also known as extinctionism or destructionism[1]) is a belief that after the final judgment some human beings will be totally destroyed so as to not exist, or that their consciousness will be extinguished,[2] rather than suffer everlasting torment in hell (often synonymized with the lake of fire)."

    "Annihilationism is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, the idea that a human soul is not immortal unless it is given eternal life. Annihilationism asserts that God will eventually destroy the wicked, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality. Some annihilationists (e.g. Seventh-day Adventists) believe God's love is scripturally described as an all-consuming fire[3] and that sinful creatures cannot exist in God's presence. Thus those who elect to reject salvation through their free will are eternally destroyed because of the inherent incompatibility of sin with God's holy character. Seventh-day Adventists posit that living in eternal hell is a false doctrine of pagan origin, as the Wicked will perish as the Bible says in the Lake of fire.[4][5][6][7] Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that there can be no punishment after death because the dead cease to exist.[8]

    Annihilationism stands in contrast to both the traditional and long-standing belief in eternal torture in the lake of fire, and the belief that everyone will be saved (universal reconciliation or simply "universalism")."

    Annihilationism - Wikipedia

    In often discussing the destiny of mankind i encounter those who refer to Scriptures that speak of "destruction" in support of their view of Annihilationism. I point out that even when people are destroyed, such as those of Sodom, that does not mean they are endlessly destroyed or support the theory of Annihilationism, since they will be restored to life again at their resurrection (in the case of Sodom). For Annihilationism to be proven true from the Scriptures, Annihilationists must prove not only that at least one person is annihilated, but that it is an annihilation from which they never come back, i.e. endless annihilation ;




    The context connects v.31 with v.33 which speaks of the "sons of men", not the sons of covenant-breakers.

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies never come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

    Which opposes the theory of endless annihilationism, as do many other passages of the Scriptures.

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  18. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    I wrote out of a concern that generally doesn't apply to you. Blessings.
     
  19. pat34lee

    pat34lee Messianic

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    What is one of the first bible verses most children learn
    in Sunday School?

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Later, we learn

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Why would God give such a great gift as eternal life, only
    to punish sinners forever? Angels, on the other hand, were
    already immortal when they sinned. Otherwise, they could
    not approach God and live.

    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
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  20. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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