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Featured Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, Jul 28, 2017.

  1. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    I don't understand what points you're trying to make in general. But the above is not supported Biblically. God identified some angelic beings which He said would die. One is the "sons of God" and "elohim" (gods) in Psalm 82 ("you will die like men"), and one other is the "guardian cherub" in Ezek 28. Less clear is the descriptions of Satan's destruction in passages like Heb 2:14, or the head-crushing of Genesis 3.
     
  2. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Mortal defined: According to you the wages of sin are death and if the devil was a sinner from the beginning he would already be Dead. If Christ died to destroy the devil, how then, is he still alive.God says He is the only One who has immortality. Is God a liar? I am presenting scripture, not challenging it. I am challenging your opinion.
     
  3. Hammster

    Hammster Private Status. Do Not Read. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    ADMIN HAT ON


    I know that this is Discussion & Debate and we allow a little more heat in the debates, but let’s turn it down a few notches. I’d hate to start handing out warnings because you felt you had to get that little dig in.


    ADMIN HAT OFF
     
  4. Hieronymus

    Hieronymus Well-Known Member

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    But then how are humans still alive, when the wages of sin is death? :)
    The wages will be paid after Judgement, which is still in the future.
     
  5. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    They aren't, they die every day. Do you know anyone who is over 150? Do you know a friend that has lived 500, 1000, 2000 years? Do you have any proof that excepts your brother, sisters, or a devil? Why does the NT say God only hath immortality 2000 years ago? It also says "not even David has yet ascended into heaven. Christ says "no man has ascended unto heaven. So where does that leave any room for just one who is disobedient?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  6. Hieronymus

    Hieronymus Well-Known Member

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    Well, you're right there.

    But the fallen cherub a.k.a. the satan, the devil, is not human, and will eventually be cast in the lake of fire, where he will perish and be no more.
    Same goes for the demons and the fallen angels, but this has not happened yet, unfortunately (i.m.o.).
    Even after the Millennium under Christ, the devil is still alive, freed from his chains for the final battle, which he will lose.
    Apparently Jesus wants to conquer the evil as King Priest of Israel, on earth, with his people.
     
  7. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Disagree.

    Luke 20
    [34] And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
    [35] But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    [36] Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.


    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  8. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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  9. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    Mortal defined: human subject to death

    Wages of sin are death.
    A mortal human's life of his body, is his blood.
    God requires the life of a human.
    When a mortal human's blood stops keeping the body alive.
    The mortal human's body dies.
    When the mortal human's body dies, he has paid his wage of death.

    The Devil, angels were not born, they were created, and have no blood wage to pay.
    "Their" death is spiritual, not physical. Their death is separation from God, yet they continue to live.

    A Human, who is born alive, is born in sin; His body , it's life (blood) is living, but spiritually he is dead, separated from God.

    A Human, can become spiritually reconciled unto God, by and through, accepting Jesus' blood and body, having paid their wage of sin, that the human's body becomes, forgiven, washed, cleansed, sanctified, and spiritually dead in Jesus. And their living soul restored and their spirit quickened.

    A Human, who does not become spiritually reconciled unto God, remains spiritually dead to God. Their body shall die in its sins, their living soul remains unrestored, and their spirit is not quickened.
    They remain separated from God; otherwise, spiritually dead to God.

    Angels, the Devil, who rebel and stand against God, are spiritually dead to God, yet though they remain alive, there is no forgiveness granted them, and forever they shall be spiritually separated from God; otherwise, spiritually dead to God.

    It doesn't matter, if a human is bodily alive or an angelic being is spiritually alive - if either is spiritually separated from God; their standing IS against God; and they ARE separated from God; ie Dead to God.

    God is NOT immortal. God is LIFE, without beginning or ending.
    A mortal has a beginning, as a mortal, and can become immortal, BY God imparting or KEEPING life from Him, in the mortal.

    Contrary to your challenge of scripture that there is no devil, I disagree.
    And no, God is not a liar. God is the giver of understanding according to His understanding, that is far supreme to a man's mindful understanding.
    And Jesus gave His pure body and pure blood for the life of the world.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What evidence do you have of what the Pharisees believed at exactly the same time as Jesus' ministry (circa 30 AD)?

    Or the Essenes, Sadducees or any other Jews at exactly 30 AD?
     
  11. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    The First Priest's were dictated by God. Arron first, to be succeeded by his sons.
    Thereafter, we find men of the Tribe of Levi set apart as Priests, and men from other Jewish Tribes, choosing to be set apart as Priests and consecrated unto God, ceremoniously by the hand of men.
    The Priests set apart in the Jewish religion were called Rabbi's.
    A council of men, representing the religious side of the Rabbi's, were men called Pharisees.
    A council called Sanhedrin, of men, representing the governance side of the Rabbi's, were men called Sadducees.

    Pharisee's accepted the LAW, Traditions, as favorable for men, but often, excluded themselves, from having to adhere to the law.

    Sadducees were, for the most part, strict believers in the LAW, in application to all men.

    Scripture clearly reveals God is not a man.

    Jesus was clearly revealed to mankind, AS a man.

    Jesus was overwhelmingly rejected, based on his appearance, as being the Messiah, sent from God, to SAVE Jews from their enemies.

    Some of the Pharisees' accepted Jesus' miracles as being of God, some didn't.

    One Sadducee in particular, named Joseph of Arimathea, despite Jesus' appearance, believed in Jesus, and offered up his own prepared burial cave, and buried the body of Jesus there.

    Jesus, clearly called Himself the Son of God.

    God clearly can not REPRODUCE something without a beginning, thus Jesus calling Himself a SON of God, was in FACT, calling Himself God! And the Pharisees, charged Jesus with blasphemy, for making Himself EQUAL with God. And the PENALTY for such blasphemy, according to the Jews, was DEATH.

    It is rather astounding that you have not discovered the knowledge of the Pharisees and Sanhedrin's presence during Jesus' bodily presence on earth; or of what the Pharisees and Sanhedrin's believed, or why they rejected Jesus.

    John 5 [18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    John 19 [7] The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  12. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    You say God is not immortal? 1 Timothy 6:16 does not agree and says God who ONLY hath immortality. You have missed the boat if you think otherwise. Deuteronomy 32:40 says God is alive. Luke 20:36 says angels never die and cannot die, so where does that leave your devil? It says we shall be like them. Do you think you will be a devil? Matthew 22:30.
    Also see acts of the Apostles 23:8; Revelation 4:11. If God created everything that means they were born. Nehemiah 9:6;
    Isaiah 54:16
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  13. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    If the character of how we receive immortality is not congruent with who God is, how can you be sure of the God you are trusting? You yourself may be annihilated when you are no longer useful.
     
  14. SBC

    SBC Well-Known Member

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    1 Tim 6 Is telling you who in his times showed his body alive, dead, and again alive.
    He exampled with his own prepared body HOW FOR AN EARTHY MAN to become immortal, BY MAKING HIS OWN BODY become subject to death, die, and again become alive.

    1 Tim 6
    [15] Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    [16] Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    No. I understand, he took a prepared body upon Himself, claimed it as His own, subjected that body to death, that body died, and that body became immortal. That body is currently alive in heaven, and That body shall return to earth, a second time.


    So? Who said otherwise?

    Uh huh, I know.

    Separated from God, who is Spirit, who accounts anything separated from Him, as spiritually dead to Him.

    Apparently you do not know the difference between a Holy angel and a Fallen angel.
    A holy angel is NOT separated from God, and is NOT accounted as dead to God.
    A fallen angel IS separated from God, and IS accounted as dead to God.

    A man who is separated from God, SHALL, be as a fallen angel, accounted as dead to God.
    A man who is NOT separated from God, SHALL, be as a holy angel, NOT accounted as dead to God.

    I know my standing, is WITH God, and I shall be like a holy angel, forever alive with God.

    And you? Seems you are unknowing of who you shall be like.

    God Bless,
    SBC
     
  15. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Privide your scripture for a holy angel is not seperated from God and where did you get a fallen angel in the first place? And then where did you get a fallen angel is seperated from God and is accounted as dead. SCRIPTURE PLEASE! The Bible says God created everything Isaiah 54:16 I have created the WASTER TO DESTROY:
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Yes, I agree with the Conditional Immortality position where the wicked will eventually be erased from existence in the Lake of Fire after the Judgment.

    However, to be more precise, I believe the Bible teaches "Dualistic Conditional Immortality."

    This is the view as taught in the Bible that says that "hell" is a very real and literal place; But the wicked will perish (i.e. be erased from existence) in the Lake of Fire (After the Judgment).

    As for a literal "hell": Well, I just do not believe there is any Scripture saying that the wicked will burn down there for thousands of years. Yes, the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man appears to suggest he was in the flame, but he also could have been referring to the heat of the flame in front of him (either nearby or in the great gulf between him and Abraham). In other words, when the rich-man said "I am tormented in this flame" (Luke 16:24) it would sort of be like if I said "I am tormented in this soldier." (referring to the flatulence from the soldier in front of me). For the first appearance of the English word "this" is used by Adam to refer to Eve who was in front of him (Genesis 2:23). Need another analogy and or another verse? Okay. Well, "in this" in Luke 16:24 is sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me. Similar language like this can be found with the words "in these" in Isaiah 57:6. Granted, I am not discounting the idea that the rich-man was burning in the actual flame itself, but I do not believe he was burning down there for thousands of years consciously being aware of that fact because God is fair and just in His Judgments.

    47 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
    48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
    (Luke 12:47-48).

    Sir Arhur Conan Doyle once said,
    "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."

    Side Note:

    Also, if the Rich-man really was engulfed in flames, then how was he able to carry on a normal conversation with Abraham? For today, if a man was tied to a log and then lowered into a roaring camp fire, he would be too busy screaming over his pain so as to carry on a normal conversation with anyone. For if the Rich-man was able to hear Abraham over his own screams of pain, he would be asking Abraham for tons of buckets of water and not a few drops to cool his tongue.

    As for the Lake of Fire being a place of annihialation:

    Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28). While I am not claiming to be an expert on Greek, scholars have said that the word "hell" here is taken from the Greek word "geenna" which is a reference to the Lake of Fire.

    If that is the case, the point here is that Jesus can destroy both body AND THE SOUL (of a person) in the Lake of Fire. For Jesus destroying the soul and body is related to man destroying or killing the physical body here on this Earth. Are you saying that men do not fear physical death? Jesus is telling us not to fear the one who can destroy our physical body because if we trust in Him, we will never techincally die (i.e. Face the second death, i.e. the Lake of Fire); but we will have everlasting LIFE. In fact, the Lake of Fire is called the "Second Death" because it relates to the "First Death."

    Anyways, Jesus is saying we should really fear Him because He has the true power of ending life or not. For if a believer's body dies, they will one day be resurrected and live with Jesus on the Eternal New Earth.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    In fact, I believe why most hold to ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is because they do not understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.

    Take Revelation 14:11 as an example.
    Should the English words "for ever" (or "forever") be read literally meaning an endless state?

    Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you. What I am I talking about? Well, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.

    In other words,, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

    • In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

    • The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

    • Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

    • Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

    • The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

    • Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

    • An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

    • Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

    • The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

    • Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

    • The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

    • The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

    • The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
    Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

    • God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

    • "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

    • Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

    • The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

    • “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​

    Anyways, in conclusion, I have discovered that the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place).

    Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
    http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Verses That Are In Support of Conditional Immortality:

    “...he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3:22 HCSB).

    “and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a proclaimer of righteousness, when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.” (2 Peter 2:5-6 NHEB).

    “And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.” (Deuteronomy 7:10).

    “Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.” (Job 4:8-9).

    “For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.” (Psalms 1:6).

    “When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.” (Ezekiel 3:18-20).

    “Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4).

    “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3).

    “Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.” (Romans 1:32).

    “And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever” (1 John 2:17).

    “And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” (1 John 5:11-13)

    “But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;” (2 Peter 2:12).

    “What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.” ‭‭(Romans 6:21).

    “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.” (Malachi 4:1-3).

    “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (1 Corinthians 15:26)

    “When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:” (Psalms 92:7).

    “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].” (Matthew 10:28).


    On the Eternal New Earth, The Saints will Witness the Lifeless Remains of the Wicked:

    The Saints View The Lifeless Remains (i.e. Corpses) of the Wicked:

    Isaiah 66:22-24

    "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

    For the Final Fate of the Wicked is Destruction (or Annihilation):

    2 Thessalonians 1:9

    "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

    Malachi 4:1-3

    “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.”

    2 Peter 2:6 NHEB

    "...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”

    Psalms 68:2

    "....as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

    Job 4:8-9

    “Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”

    Psalms 92:7 NLT

    "Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."

    Deuteronomy 7:10

    “And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”

    Psalms 1:6

    “For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”

    Matthew 10:28

    “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”

    Revelation 21:8

    "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

    The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:

    A. Destruction of the Devil:

    Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

    12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”
    ‭‭
    Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18

    “Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

    “Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”

    B. Destruction of the Entity Known As "Death":

    1 Corinthians 15:26

    “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”

    1 Corinthians 15:25

    “For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.”
     
  19. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    Given your quotation of Luke 20, I think I understand why you disagree. Let me show you what I meant, though; and what I should have said to express my meaning clearly.

    Let me quote the point I was disagreeing with:

    To disprove that, I quoted passages that identify an angel and then say that it will die. So rather than never dying, it seems they _sometimes_ die. (You didn't address any of those passages -- do you think I'm wrong about them?)

    When you quote Luke, of course, you bring up a good point, because both of us know the Bible can't contradict itself. How do we resolve this tension, then?

    The first thing to notice is that Luke 20 doesn't say "angels never die." It actually says that about humans who attain to the age to come "do not marry, nor are given in marriage, neither can they die anymore." Then, when explaining why they do not do all these things, it says it's because they're equal to the angels and are sons of God.

    But there's a dual problem with your interpretation: the topic, and the "and". The topic Jesus is teaching about isn't angels; it's humans. We therefore need to be careful in reaching conclusions about angels. Because of that, the "and" tells us that in order to explain that we'll not do all those things including not dying, Jesus has to say BOTH that we'll be equal to angels, AND that we'll be sons of God. If it were enough to say we're equal to angels, he wouldn't have needed to add that qualifier.

    But what does this mean? I think the answer's obvious: we can suppose that angels do not die, normally. They do not die of old age, and don't get sick; they may not be able to kill one another (although that's not actually stated). Thus the normal condition of angels describes the transformed condition of humans -- but this doesn't say or mean that angels cannot die under any circumstance, because it doesn't deal with the condition of judgment for wickedness, which includes expulsion from inheriting the age to come. And that's what those other verses I quoted DO deal with. They are on-topic, and this, although similar to the topic, is not ON it.

    This is supported by how other Gospels quote the same saying of Jesus.

    Matt 22:30 - "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."

    Mark 12:25 - "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."

    Notice the emphasis on the others doesn't even mention the undying condition of the angels, only their lack of marriage. Of course, we can harmonize these by observing that beings which don't marry therefore must not need to reproduce; they don't need to provide offspring in order to continue their kind. So they _can_ mean the same thing. Additionally, these passages are only talking about the "angels in heaven" -- the ones who remain qualified to enter the presence of God, not the ones who have been cast out of heaven. This seems parallel to the "sons of God" point in Luke, and so the two may mean the same thing.

    So I have to challenge you: how do you explain all of these passages, considering both God's willingness to talk about making angels die, and the parallel passages not being interpretable as talking about angels never dying? Do you think my interpretation of Luke is weak?

    Not to say we can't disagree; of course we can. But what we're disagreeing on is ultimately _very_ weak evidence. There's only one fallen angel who's predicted to be tormented forever (the devil/Satan, of course); and there's one who's specifically predicted to not exist anymore (the guardian cherub, which is the passage some people use to prove that Satan is an angel -- aside from that the Bible doesn't say he is one). If Psalm 82 is about angels, there are some who will die like men. Other than that, most of what we are saying is remote guesswork.
     
  20. William Tanksley Jr

    William Tanksley Jr Member

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    I am SO impressed with what you've done here I couldn't just click "like", I have to reply. Thank you. I completely agree, and in fact, I don't see how this basic, clear teaching has become so seldom noticed in the history of the church! We see it taught clearly in Sts. Irenaeus and Aphrahat, and of course it's represented in every age from which we have documentation... except that it become very rare after Greek was largely lost and after the Romans began killing people for disagreeing with them. Only in the Reformation does it again surface -- against a background of the superstition that all humans are immortal so that even God can't kill them. Luther questioned that superstition, but didn't follow it through to the Biblical teaching, and Calvin's vitriolic writing on the subject was able to shut him down where the Pope's anathema had not been able. But in England through the 1600s on it caught on like wildfire, even briefly spreading to America (although there it was quenched by the spiritism of the 1800s revivals).

    With that said, I'm in almost complete agreement... I just want to caution you about your first post. The Biblical word "eternal" or "everlasting" is sometimes ambiguous and can mean "lasting an unknown amount of time" or "lasting beyond our knowledge." But this isn't an argument I would lead with, because in fact it's not always true. And almost always, when it says "forever" it means that -- the phrases translated "forever" are different from the ones translated "eternal" and "everlasting", and have much less ambiguity.
     
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