concensus view on water baptism

[ByTheSpirit]

Hello everyone,

I realize this particular subforum is far less frequented than others, but being that we here tend to follow the New Testament pattern more closely than others in practice, i.e. house churches, I thought I would ask this question here.

I have a pretty extensive research thread on the topic going in the Spirit-filled forum titled "My view on water baptism" for a greater explanation of what I'm asking and the thread is no where complete.

Okay, so what are particular views here on water baptism?

Is it a sacrament that imparts grace?

Is it an ordinance that is merely meant to be done at some point in the believers life?

I ask this in all seriousness, not as a means to divide us.

You see, reading the scriptures that say "baptism... now saves you... through the resurrection of Jesus... (1 Peter 3:21)" or "those who have baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Gal 3:27)" or "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin (Acts 2:38)" or many more... it seems that the modern church has lost it's way on the practice.

For instance, I don't see a single "sinner's prayer" or "altar call" in the book of Acts, but when someone wants to follow Jesus they are baptized immediately or as soon as possible.

Please someone speak to me on this in a way that doesn't sound condescending. All the feedback I'm getting from others is that I'm practicing heresy by saying I feel baptism is necessary to salvation. But this thing is consuming me really, I feel a fire within myself on this topic. Just want to see what everyone here believes on the topic.

Is baptism a sacrament or an ordinance? Or other (please explain)

 

[phydaux]

You used the word "necessary."

The only thing that is "necessary" for salvation is "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9 NKJV). So no, baptism isn't "necessary."

That said, we are commanded to be baptized. It is an act of obedience, and a public profession of our faith in, and our identification with, Christ. Failure to get baptized, if one has never been and they have the opportunity, is a fairly public display of disobedience.

 

[phydaux]

I should think that gathering as a group once or twice a year, at either a local beach or swimming pool, and giving group members who have never been baptized the chance to become so would be enough.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Then why did Peter and Paul baptize people immediately in Acts? I just don't see why they would do it on the spot (or as quickly as possible) if it wasn't important.

For instance, Jesus said those who believe and are baptized will be saved...

He also said you can not enter the kingdom of Heaven without being born of water and the Spirit.

You can try to explain away the water element if you want, but Jesus said plainly baptism is part of salvation.

Not to mention baptism is a commandment given by Jesus. So not being baptized for whatever reason is disobedience which is never a good thing.

That is an indisputable fact of scripture, no matter what your position on baptism itself may be.

 

[phydaux]

Did the Thief on the Cross make it into heaven? Jesus said he would. But he was never baptized.

 

[phydaux]

"You can try to explain away the water element if you want, but Jesus said plainly baptism is part of salvation."

Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo

By grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I'm not trying to win a debate here, just been wrestling with the issue recently and feel the church has it wrong.

The theif on the cross died before the gospel was completed. So using him as an example is rather wrong. Jesus forgave sins while he was alive. So him telling the thief on the cross what he did was no different than telling the thief that as Abraham will enter paradise today so will you.

The gospel as we know is Jesus died, buried, and rose again.

Sure, Jesus died before the thief, but certainly had not been buried or resurrected. So the thief couldn't be born again in that sense. Something to think about

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Also, God's grace doesn't save a person, it's their faith that saves them.

Ephesians 2:8 places the emphasis of salvation on faith, not grace. It is saying, "By your faith, God in his grace gave you salvation."

God offers his grace to everyone right? He wants everyone to be saved right?

But we know not everyone, or even a majority will be saved, so there is more to it than just grace. As you noted faith is involvled.

But what is biblical faith? Faith is NEVER without works that demonstrate it.

That is where James comes in. He is not teaching works save us apart from faith, but rather if we say we have faith, we show it by our works.

I am saying, baptism is one such work. Like confession. That is what Paul was told in Acts 22:16 by Aeneas, Be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

So either our understanding of salvation is wrong, or scripture itself is wrong. Paul received the new birth in that ^^^^ pattern. He then taught others that pattern.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Like I said: I'm wrestling with these questions and wanted to turn to those who follow scriptures more closely on matters than others.

I did not start this thread here to argue and win a debate. So please don't misunderstand my words or questions. I have had many harsh words thrown at me for asking these questions and presenting biblical facts as to why I view this topic the way I do.

For instance, all believers are priests unto God. We as "house churchers" believe that is one major flaw with traditional church. That a traditional church, people have to be called to ministry, whereas the scriptures teach we all are ministers, priests to God.

But did you know the scripture teaches that priests had to be washed by waters of purification before they could perform their priestly duty? Numbers 8:6-8 I view that as why Jesus himself said at his baptism that he was fulfilling all righteousness. God required baptism of high priests as well. So Jesus had to be baptized before he could become high priest. Now before we object that those OT priestly commands were part of the law, therefore not applicable to us as Christians, that's not entirely accurate. Read the text and context of when God told Moses (apart from the Law and commands) that priests and high priests must be washed by the waters of purification. Those commands were seperate and apart from "the Mosaic Law".

I guess it depends on how you read the text, but it is clear IMHO that what Jesus said at his baptism was a direct reference to that, and if Jesus was baptized before taking on his high priestly office, we should as well before taking on our priesthood, which we teach as happening immediately upon conversion. So people should get baptized immediately.

That is just one point I find on the importance of baptism and why I find it necessary. I hope you understand what I'm saying here. I apologize if it seems I'm coming off as confrontational, I'm not.

 

[ConfuseddotCom]

What church do you attend, what is their take on this issue?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

What church do you attend, what is their take on this issue?

I attend a house church and will ask that question tomorrow when I meet with the networks lead minister/pastor (I'm not sure what his "title") is

 

[dayhiker]

I see baptism as us acting out the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. The helps us to get what Jesus did for us.

Any act of obedience and faith in Christ has His grace involved in it.

 

[phydaux]

Also, God's grace doesn't save a person, it's their faith that saves them.

Ephesians 2:8 places the emphasis of salvation on faith, not grace. It is saying, "By your faith, God in his grace gave you salvation."

God offers his grace to everyone right? He wants everyone to be saved right?

But we know not everyone, or even a majority will be saved, so there is more to it than just grace. As you noted faith is involvled.

But what is biblical faith? Faith is NEVER without works that demonstrate it.

That is where James comes in. He is not teaching works save us apart from faith, but rather if we say we have faith, we show it by our works.

I am saying, baptism is one such work. Like confession. That is what Paul was told in Acts 22:16 by Aeneas, Be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.

So either our understanding of salvation is wrong, or scripture itself is wrong. Paul received the new birth in that ^^^^ pattern. He then taught others that pattern.

Let's look at Ephesians again.

Ephesians 2:8-9

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (NKJV)

The phrase "and that not of yourselves" refers to the faith. The faith is a free gift from God, just like the Grace is.

 

[CGL1023]

You see, reading the scriptures that say "baptism... now saves you... through the resurrection of Jesus... (1 Peter 3:21)" or "those who have baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Gal 3:27)" or "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin (Acts 2:38)" or many more... it seems that the modern church has lost it's way on the practice.

For instance, I don't see a single "sinner's prayer" or "altar call" in the book of Acts, but when someone wants to follow Jesus they are baptized immediately or as soon as possible.

Please someone speak to me on this in a way that doesn't sound condescending. All the feedback I'm getting from others is that I'm practicing heresy by saying I feel baptism is necessary to salvation. But this thing is consuming me really, I feel a fire within myself on this topic. Just want to see what everyone here believes on the topic.

Is baptism a sacrament or an ordinance? Or other (please explain)[/quote]

I am taught that water baptism is not a salvation issue. I cannot imagine making water baptism a salvation requirement as another person is necessarily involved as in Acts 8, Phillip and the Ethiopian Eunuch. If it were a requirement, then any person at remote location awaiting baptism may die before before the needed person arrives. This is a situation I cannot get to work out except baptism not be required for salvation. Holy Spirit baptism can be self-administered per Luke 11:13.

I am further taught that, for different reasons, that the baptism referred to in Mark 16:16, is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. One can see the the signs following the believer in Mk 16:17 result from Holy Spirit empowerment, which is the context of MK 16:16-18 and VS 20.

 

[phydaux]

OK, the Alter Call and the Sinner's Prayer are American inventions, specifically Charles Finney.

Now on to the topic of baptism.

When scripture says:

Acts 2:38

"Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (NKJV)

We can look at it this way - I might say "Take an aspirin for your headache." The aspirin doesn't give you the headache. You already have the headache, taking the aspirin is what you do in response. It's the same with salvation and baptism. When Peter says "be baptized... for the remission of sins" he is saying since you are already saved, in response be baptized.

 

[Stefos]

OK, the Alter Call and the Sinner's Prayer are American inventions, specifically Charles Finney.

This is awesome!!!!

Someone is getting freed up from American "Pastorianity/Priestianity"

Praise God!

Finally, man.

 

[Alithis]

other.


it is simple obedience as we learn of it ..
i think the reason some take so long to learn of it rests on the shoulders of those who preach the gospel ... and what must we do to be saved ..repent every one of you and be baptized in the name of Jesus(who is the father and the son and the holy Ghost, they three, are one)
it is an outer ceremony much like that of a wedding ceremony .. in a wedding ceremony we place a ring on the finger . the placing of the ring does not cause us to be married ..marriage is consummated by the co-joining of the two becoming one in intimacy of that consummation-the ring ceremony is the outer declaration of willingness and intent for that to take place .

In our relationship to God water baptism is also our outer declaration of our willingness and intent for intimacy in the Spirit to take place ..the actual occurrence of rebirth in the spirit is consummated by the baptism of the Holy Ghost when God enters ,by his Spirit ,our hearts and then abides in us and we in him ..the two co-joined as one . that is the moment of spiritual consummation .

an unwillingness to declare our faith and intent via water baptism can be interpreted as an unwillingness for that to happen .
does this mean that those who have believed but have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit are not born again of the Spirit ..? yes it can mean that, i must admit, because the Lord Jesus did say "except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven ".
but does it mean some one who HAS recived the baptism of the holy Spirit but has not been water baptized is not saved ? no it cant mean that because the baptism of the holy Spirit is Gods consummation of salvation in us ..it is his acknowledgement and down payment to us .
but such a person would not then seek to have such a union of holiness in relationship with the heavenly father a secret ..upon learning of the purpose of water baptism, being the outer declaration of will and intent to cast off this life and live in Christ Jesus ..they would HURRY to be baptized in water with the utmost Joy at the privilege to openly declare and share their faith in him ..

 

[phydaux]

This is awesome!!!!

Someone is getting freed up from American "Pastorianity/Priestianity"

Praise God!

Finally, man.

Hey Stef, start a thread on Watchman Nee. I only know a little about him & Witnness Lee, and as it turns out most of it is pure slander with no basis in truth.

 

[Stefos]

Hey Stef, start a thread on Watchman Nee. I only know a little about him & Witnness Lee, and as it turns out most of it is pure slander with no basis in truth.

Hi Phy,

Sorry but pass brother!
If you'd like to you can.

I'm not looking after promoting nor defending people alive or dead whom believers have propped up on pedestals.
If a brother or sister had a particular gift...Praise God not the person.

It's about Jesus and him in us..As Paul said "I boast in the cross of Christ."
Stefos

 

[phydaux]

OK, the Alter Call and the Sinner's Prayer are American inventions, specifically Charles Finney.

This is awesome!!!!

Someone is getting freed up from American "Pastorianity/Priestianity"

Praise God!

Finally, man.

Back in the '90s there was a guy on the internet who was a stalwart apologist for the Reformed view. He went by the handle "Date Rat," and occasionally "The Geneva Rat" or "The Reformed Rodent."

The guy worked 3rd shift in a data center somewhere in Europe as a network engineer. He had a lot of downtime, so he studied the reformers as well as a lot of the older church fathers. And he wrote articles, and posted then to his web site. Always in English, although English clearly wasn't his native language.

At the time I considered myself "a dispensationalist with TULIP envy." With the understanding I had of grace, I just couldn't wrap my brain around Limited Atonement. I found a bunch of articles Data Rat had written and plowed through them.

He would sometimes mention, in passing, "the American religion." You had to read a LOT of his articles to infer from context exactly what he thought "the American religion" was. Eventually you could figure it out - dispensationalism, alter calls, the sinner's prayer, over-the-top pentacostalism, the prosperity gospel, basically everything that started with John Wesley and "finished" with Benny Hinn.

That was hard, because I ALSO considered myself a charismatic, still do, and I nearly went to Rhema in Broken Arrow, OK. (Or a SHOULD say, I nearly followed a girl there. But that's another story...) But I had to admit Data Rat had a lot of good points.

Not sure this story has a point, other than it's amazing what God will use in your life. And how he course of your life can turn on the littlest of things.

Not sure where I'd be today if I had followed that girl to Oklahoma. Man, I gotta fire up Facebook and see if I can track her down....