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Concealing the name of God

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by CherubRam, May 25, 2017.

  1. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I hope you plan on addressing post #36.
     
  2. FrankDux

    FrankDux Active Member

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    You seem to be overlooking onoma

    :D
     
  3. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Who are you addressing and what are you referring to?
     
  4. FrankDux

    FrankDux Active Member

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    Onoma refers to nothing other than the name of Jesus Christ, according to the concordance:

    3686 ónomaname; (figuratively) the manifestation or revelation of someone's character, i.e. as distinguishing them from all others. Thus "praying in the name of Christ" means to pray as directed (authorized) by Him, bringing revelation that flows out of being in His presence. "Praying in Jesus' name" therefore is not a "religious formula" just to end prayers (or get what we want)!

    ["According to Hebrew notions, a name is inseparable from the person to whom it belongs, i.e. it is something of his essence. Therefore, in the case of the God, it is specially sacred" (

    This is according to the scholar Alexander Souter)


    " thou shalt call his name JESUS "
    " his name Emmanuel "

    etc


    And how is " Onoma " used in Revelation ?


    Revelation 6:8

    " And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth "

    Revelation 9:11

    " And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon "

    Revelation 13:1

    " And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy "

    Revelation 13:6

    " And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven "

    Revelation 13:17

    " And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name "

    Revelation 14:1

    " And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads "

    Revelation 15:2

    " And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God "

    Revelation 19:12

    " His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself "

    Revelation 19:13

    " And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God "

    Revelation 19:16

    " And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS "

    Revelation 22:4

    " And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads "
     
  5. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I still don't know why you are bringing this up or who it is directed to, CherubRam or me.
     
  6. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Waw
    Phonemic representation w, v, o, u
    Waw represents the consonant [w.] And (in Modern Hebrew also [v,]) also the vowels and [o].

    As a reminder, the Rabbi's changed the Hebrew language.

    See: Theophoric name: Theophoric name - Wikipedia
    Also: Theophory in the Bible: Theophory in the Bible - Wikipedia

    Christ name in English is Yahshua, with no vowel in the middle.

    God's name in English is Yahwah, with no vowel in the middle.

    Vowel and cantillation marks were added to the older consonantal layer of the Bible between 600 CE and the beginning of the 10th century. The scholars who preserved the pronunciation of the Bibles were known as the Masoretes.

    For more info see: Waw-consecutive: Waw-consecutive - Wikipedia
     
  7. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    He is just making conversation GP.
     
  8. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Are you saying the Rabbi's added a Waw into the Son of Nun's name, but it doesn't belong there and that is why you don't transliterate it as YahOshua? You are telling me his supposed name Yahshua does not have a vowel in the middle. I see that. I want to know why not if the Hebrew name HAS a Waw in the middle?
     
  9. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Joshua is Yahshua, the way it was pronounced long ago. It is not pronounced Yah-o-shua. The modern understanding is somewhat more nuanced, and the term waw-consecutive is now used.
     
  10. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    The Rabbi's changed the Hebrew language.
     
  11. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    You sure are being vague. Joshua is spelled Yothe He Waw Shin Ayin in the Hebrew text. You agree because you wrote, "The spelling Yahshua (יהושע) is found in Hebrew texts transliterated as Yothe He Waw Shin Ayin."

    Here is the transliteration from blueletterbible.org:

    יְהוֹשׁוּעַ Yĕhowshuwa`

    What I want to know is why you do NOT put an "o" after the first "h" in "Yahshua"? On what grounds do you not pronounce the Waw? Is it because "The Rabbi's changed the Hebrew language" and added the Waw? If so, please provide textual evidence for this accusation.
     
  12. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    יְהוֺשׁוּעַ, יְהוֺשֻׁעַ and (later) יֵשׁוּעַ,
    proper name, masculine (& location, see

    9 below) (׳י is salvation, or ׳י is opulence, compare אֱלִישָׁע, אֱלִישׁוּעַ, אֲבִישׁוּעַ & NesSK 1892, 573 f.; in any case it came to be associated with ישׁע, compare Matthew 1:21; on יֵשׁוּעַ see especially FräVOJ iv. 1890, 332 f. MüllSK 1892, 177 f. who cite analogue for change of וֹ to later ֵ֯, & Nesl.c.) —

    1 Moses' successor, son of Nun, (ᵐ5 Ἰησοῦς) יְהוֺשׁוּעַ Deuteronomy 3:21; Judges 2:7; = יְהוֺשֻׁעַ Exodus 17:9,10,13,14; Exodus 24:13; Exodus 32:17; Exodus 33:11; Numbers 11:28; Numbers 13:16; Numbers 14:6,30,38; Numbers 26:65; Numbers 27:18,22; Numbers 32:12,28; Numbers 34:17; Deuteronomy 1:38; Deuteronomy 3:28; Deuteronomy 31:3,7,14 (twice in verse); Deuteronomy 31:23; Deuteronomy 34:9; Joshua 1:1 167t. Joshua; Judges 1:1; Judges 2:6,7,8,21,23; 1 Kings 16:34; 1 Chronicles 7:27; = יֵשׁוּעַ Nehemiah 8:17 (ᵐ5 Ἰησοῦς); according to P, name changed by Moses from הוֺשֵׁעַ q. v. Numbers 13:8,16 (ᵐ5 Αὑση) Deuteronomy 32:44 (ᵐ5 Ἰησοῦς).

    2 יְהוֺשֻׁעַ a Bethshemite 1 Samuel 6:14,18 (ᵐ5 'Wshe, A Ἰησοῦς, ᵐ5L Ἰωσηε).

    3 high priest after the restoration, son of Jehozadak יְהוֺשֻׁעַ (ᵐ5 Ἰησοῦς) Haggai 1:1,12,14; Haggai 2:2,4; Zechariah 3:1,3,6,8,9; Zechariah 6:11; = יְשׁוּעַ (ᵐ5 Ἰησοῦς) Ezra 2:2; Ezra 3:2,8; Ezra 4:3; Ezra 5:2; Ezra 10:18; Nehemiah 7:7; Nehemiah 12:1,7,10,26.

    4 יְהוֺשֻׁעַ governor of Jerusalem under Josiah 2 Kings 23:8 (ᵐ5 Ἰησοῦς, ᵐ5L Ἰωσηε).

    5 יֵשׁוּעַ (ᵐ5 Ἰησοῦς). head of one of the classes of priests 1 Chronicles 24:11, possibly also Ezra 2:36 = Nehemiah 7:39.

    6 יֵשׁוּעַ (ᵐ5 Ἰησοῦς etc.), a Levitical family-name of frequent occurrence:

    a. Ezra 2:40; Ezra 3:9 = Nehemiah 7:43; Nehemiah 8:7; Nehemiah 9:4,5; Nehemiah 10:10; Nehemiah 12:8.

    b.2Chronicles 31:15; Ezra 8:33; Nehemiah 12:24.

    7 יֵשׁוּעַ (ᵐ5 id.), father of a builder at the wall Nehemiah 3:19, perhaps =

    8 a Judaite family-name (ᵐ5 id.), Ezra 2:6 = Nehemiah 7:11 (compare SmListen 12).

    9. proper name, of a location in south of Judah Nehemiah 11:26 בְּיֵשׁוּעַ (ᵐ5 ἐν Ἰησού, ᵐ5L ἐν Σουα).

    יְהוֺשֻׁעַ, יֵשׁוּעַ proper name.
     
  13. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Since you refuse to answer my questions and choose to be evasive, we have nothing more to discuss. The Hebrew name for Joshua has a Waw in it that you refuse to put in your man-made variation "Yahshua" so that it is correctly pronounced "Yahoshua". You have no linguistic basis to omit it and have offered no historical or textual evidence to prove the Rabbis altered the text concerning Joshua's Hebrew name. Therefore, I totally dismiss your claims and your false accusations against the Rabbis. When you answer the questions posed in post #51, then I will resume this conversation. Shalom.
     
  14. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Very funny. If you are not joking, then your reading comprehension is lacking. I am done discussing things with you. Bye.
     
  15. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Here are the variant spellings for Yahshua in the Old Testament. Some say that it is a custom to add the middle vowel, others say that it is not. Take your pick.

    יְהוֺשׁוּעַ, יְהוֺשֻׁעַ and יֵשׁוּעַ,
     
  16. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 14:1
    Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
     
  17. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    post #1 was too long.
     
  18. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps a little, but nothing awful.
     
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