Comparison chart Covenant Theology vs. Dispensationalism

[jgr]

John 10:16 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.

LOL. Oh...........both Jew and Gentile...........sweet. Kinda shoots your garr-baaagggeee in the foot doesn't it.

Yessir. All together as one flock in one fold, with no distinctions.

That's good garbage.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Yessir. All together as one flock in one fold, with no distinctions.

That's good garbage.

Right........Jew..........Gentile..............perfect.

 

[Biblewriter]

The word "but" does not appear in John 10:16.

Galatians 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The fact that a doctrine does not appear in one scripture has zero bearing on whether or not it appears in another.

 

[jgr]

The fact that a doctrine does not appear in one scripture has zero bearing on whether or not it appears in another.

The unavoidable conclusion of which is that your "but" doctrine is in conflict with the cited Scriptures.

Otherwise, you wouldn't have to characterize it as a "but" doctrine.

So who is right; John 10:16, Galatians 3:28, et al?

Or your "but" doctrine?

 

[Biblewriter]

The unavoidable conclusion of which is that your "but" doctrine is in conflict with the cited Scriptures.

Otherwise, you wouldn't have to characterize it as a "but" doctrine.

So who is right; John 10:16, Galatians 3:28, et al?

Or your "but" doctrine?

Yuor conclusion about the effect of the scriptures you cited is in conflict with a great many other scriptures that are explicitly stated in plain words. Neither of these scriptures even implied that the those other scriptures would not indeed be literally fulfilled.

 

[jgr]

Yuor conclusion about the effect of the scriptures you cited is in conflict with a great many other scriptures that are explicitly stated in plain words. Neither of these scriptures even implied that the those other scriptures would not indeed be literally fulfilled.

Does your interpretation of your "but" doctrine agree that there is one fold and one shepherd, and that we are all one in Christ Jesus?

 

[Biblewriter]

Does your interpretation of your "but" doctrine agree that there is one fold and one shepherd, and that we are all one in Christ Jesus?

Yes, absolutely. We believe that because, and specifically because, the scriptures say so. And, with the sole exception of the timing of the rapture, that is why we also believe the rest of what we believe. But ALL positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretation, because, although the Bible explicitly says it will happen, it does not directly state its timing, in relation to other events which is says will happen.

 

[Ronald]

Here is a brief comparison showing the main differences between covenant theology and dispensational theology, nice and impartial.

Dispensationalism

1. God has two distinct people – Israel and the Church.
2. The Church age was a parenthesis in God’s dealing with Israel.
3. God’s promises to Israel were postponed till after the rapture.
4. After a Jewish tribulation revival, their ‘dispensation’ will resume.
5. Worship in the millennium includes re-instituted temple sacrifice.
6. The promised temple is an example of what must yet be fulfilled.
7. Modern Israel proves not all promises are fulfilled in the Church.

Covenant Theology

1. God has always only had but one spiritual people.
2. The Church (incl. Jew & Gentile) actually is true Israel.
3. God’s promises to Israel are fulfilled in Christ’s Church.
4. There will be a revival of Jews but it will be into the Church.
5. Redemption is in the cross and sacrifice is finished forever.
6. Even if a temple gets rebuilt it is unnecessary and irrelevant.
7. The modern restoration of the nation of Israel is coincidental.

Note on #1: When dispensationalists say God has two people, they are referring to Israel (an ethnic group) and the Church. (a spiritual group) When covenant theology says God has one people they are referring to ‘Spiritual Israel’ (a single entity consisting of saints from every tribe)

Note on #3: Covenant theology applies the geographical land promises to the Church figuratively.

Note on #5: Dispensationalists either infer or state that the entire levitical system will be repeated in the Millennium. Moderates think that it will simply serve as a ‘reminder’ of Christ’s death. Extreme dispensationalists infer that it will be the basis of millennium atonement. In either case all disps. accord an elite position to ethnic Israel in the millennium.

What do you do with Romans 11? The Jews were blinded for our sake -- that's a pronounced distinction between the Church and Israel. Of course there is only one Spiritual Church and no one gets into heaven unless they are washed with the blood of Christ. Keep in mind that all OT saints who lived by faith, have Christ's sacrifice/blood imputed to them.
So back to Romans 11. The veil will be lifted during the Great Tribulation, when every eye will see Him. They will mourn but a remnant Israel (and the Bible clearly lists at least a portion of those from the bloodlines of the twelve tribes in Revelation) will be saved and protected during that time. So how many Jews on the planet now? 15 million or so? 1/3 of them will be saved and become part of the Church. This is a special covenant with the Jews apart from the Gentiles in the New Covenant. God did not forget about them, He blinded them till this day for a purpose and He will lift their veils.

Dispensations are just periods of time / stages if you will, by which God orders things throughout history.
1. Creation/ the Garden until Sin
2. Mankind and the Earth cursed until the Flood
3. Flood to Abraham
4. Abraham to Christ and the Church
5. Christ/Church to the present. I guess you can divide the Church into different stages: Apostolic Church > Catholicism > Martin Luther and Protestantism.
But that's how I view dispensations as stages.
Then we will see a yet two more dispensations:
6. The Millennial Kingdom
7. The New Jerusalem/New Earth and Heaven

You can also group these into two dispensations, the Law and Grace. But God clearly ordered things that were not coincidental. Nothing is a coincidence. Things and conditions changed drastically. You could even further separate The Great Tribulation period which will be like no other period of time, as a Judgment dispensed by God, quite different than any other time in history.

 

[jgr]

Yes, absolutely. We believe that because, and specifically because, the scriptures say so. And, with the sole exception of the timing of the rapture, that is why we also believe the rest of what we believe. But ALL positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretation, because, although the Bible explicitly says it will happen, it does not directly state its timing, in relation to other events which is says will happen.

So we really are all one together in Christ until the rapture?

Then why do you never cease to insist that there are two peoples of God even at the present?

 

[Biblewriter]

So we really are all one together in Christ until the rapture?

Then why do you never cease to insist that there are two peoples of God even at the present?

The Bible very clearly says that, even though they are currently in rebellion, the are still beloved. And the promises still pertain to them. These promises include promises that, after a time of severe purging, all of them that survive will repent and turn back to the Lord with their whole hearts. And these promises will most assuredly be kept in a future day. But any of them who repent and turn to Christ at the present time become part of the one body of Christ.

 

[jgr]

The Bible very clearly says that, even though they are currently in rebellion, the are still beloved. And the promises still pertain to them. These promises include promises that, after a time of severe purging, all of them that survive will repent and turn back to the Lord with their whole hearts. And these promises will most assuredly be kept in a future day. But any of them who repent and turn to Christ at the present time become part of the one body of Christ.

It appears to be high time to be reminded once again of who "they" and "them" are.

To wit, the entire human race.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

 

[Biblewriter]

The Bible very clearly says that, even though they are currently in rebellion, the are still beloved. And the promises still pertain to them. These promises include promises that, after a time of severe purging, all of them that survive will repent and turn back to the Lord with their whole hearts. And these promises will most assuredly be kept in a future day. But any of them who repent and turn to Christ at the present time become part of the one body of Christ.

It appears to be high time to be reminded once again of who "they" and "them" are.

To wit, the entire human race.

Your answer could not be further from being correct. The "they" in my statement that "even though they are currently in rebellion, the are still beloved." Was an obvious reference to Romans 11:26-28, where the word "they" in verse 28 is a clear reference to the word "Israel" in verse 26, which same word had been repeatedly used in this discussion in verses 1, 7, and 25 before its use in verse 26, which is the clear antecedent of the word "they" which occurs twice in verse 28.

And the word "them" in my statement "And the promises still pertain to them." was an obvious reference to Romans 9:4, where it is a clear reference to Paul's "brethren," his "countrymen according to the flesh, Who are Israelites" in verses 3 and 4.

As to the rest of what you posted, I am simply not interested in the imagined "facts" presented by unbelievers in the clear and unmistakable promises of God.

Romans 9:3-4 very clearly and explicitly says that "the promises" "pertain" to Paul's "brethren," his "countrymen according to the flesh, Who are Israelites." There is simply no way to escape this, for it is undeniable. And this was said long after the cross, long after the Lord ascended to heaven, and long after the people made their final rejection of Him in refusing to heed the announcement of Stephen that he saw "the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God." Yet "the promises" still pertained to these rebellious people.

And Romans 11:26 clearly says both "Israel" and "Jacob" as the "they" of the statement "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers." in Romans 11:28. And the explicitly stated reason for this statement is "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:29)

When you deny that this is a clear teaching of scripture, you are denying what God clearly and explicitly said. And your attempts to show "scientific" evidence that what God so explicitly stated cannot be correct are nothing short of unbelief.

 

[jgr]

Your answer could not be further from being correct. The "they" in my statement that "even though they are currently in rebellion, the are still beloved." Was an obvious reference to Romans 11:26-28, where the word "they" in verse 28 is a clear reference to the word "Israel" in verse 26, which same word had been repeatedly used in this discussion in verses 1, 7, and 25 before its use in verse 26, which is the clear antecedent of the word "they" which occurs twice in verse 28.

And the word "them" in my statement "And the promises still pertain to them." was an obvious reference to Romans 9:4, where it is a clear reference to Paul's "brethren," his "countrymen according to the flesh, Who are Israelites" in verses 3 and 4.

As to the rest of what you posted, I am simply not interested in the imagined "facts" presented by unbelievers in the clear and unmistakable promises of God.

Romans 9:3-4 very clearly and explicitly says that "the promises" "pertain" to Paul's "brethren," his "countrymen according to the flesh, Who are Israelites." There is simply no way to escape this, for it is undeniable. And this was said long after the cross, long after the Lord ascended to heaven, and long after the people made their final rejection of Him in refusing to heed the announcement of Stephen that he saw "the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God." Yet "the promises" still pertained to these rebellious people.

And Romans 11:26 clearly says both "Israel" and "Jacob" as the "they" of the statement "Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers." in Romans 11:28. And the explicitly stated reason for this statement is "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:29)

When you deny that this is a clear teaching of scripture, you are denying what God clearly and explicitly said. And your attempts to show "scientific" evidence that what God so explicitly stated cannot be correct are nothing short of unbelief.

Israel is genetically in the entire human race.

They are no longer a genetic subset of the human race.

The mathematics and empirics confirm this.

And they confirm what has always been true: The only DNA about which God is concerned is spiritual DNA.

Genesis 17
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


Deposit your racialized pseudogospel in the only receptacle in which it belongs.
The round file.

 

[Choose Wisely]

2 Timothy 3:7
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Biblewriter]

Israel is genetically in the entire human race.

They are no longer a genetic subset of the human race.

The mathematics and empirics confirm this.

And they confirm what has always been true: The only DNA about which God is concerned is spiritual DNA.

Genesis 17
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


Deposit your racialized pseudogospel in the only receptacle in which it belongs.
The round file.

Your alleged scientific facts say exactly the opposite of what scripture clearly and explicitly says, in plain language. End of discussion.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Your alleged scientific facts say exactly the opposite of what scripture clearly and explicitly says, in plain language. End of discussion.

BINGO

 

[jgr]

Your alleged scientific facts say exactly the opposite of what scripture clearly and explicitly says, in plain language. End of discussion.

Romans 9
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

I'm one of the children of the promise.

Galatians 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I'm Abraham's seed.

Galatians 6
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

I'm an Israelite of God.

End of discussion.

 

[Choose Wisely]

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

How much more their fullness..............And God is faithful to do what he says. A wise man would be watching and waiting for the soon coming of the Master.

 

[DeaconDean]

Actually, a careful comparison of the last third of Ezekiel with Leviticus through Deuteronomy shows that the law of Ezekiel is distinctly different from the law of Moses. Both the laws and the sacrifices are distinctly different.

I'm not arguing against that.

But, Ezekiel has the distinct quality of a re-institution of the "Torah". (Somewhat)

For one, the Priesthood of Aaron is replaced in spite of what God said in Lev.

Two, no longer would the Priests sacrifice, the "Prince of the People" will.

Three, a tax will be levied on sacrifices.

Four, ritual circumcision will become the standard.

All this, goes against the New Testament.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Biblewriter]

I'm not arguing against that.

But, Ezekiel has the distinct quality of a re-institution of the "Torah". (Somewhat)

For one, the Priesthood of Aaron is replaced in spite of what God said in Lev.

Two, no longer would the Priests sacrifice, the "Prince of the People" will.

Three, a tax will be levied on sacrifices.

Four, ritual circumcision will become the standard.

All this, goes against the New Testament.

God Bless

Till all are one.

This is most certainly not a return to the Torah, for both the sacrifices and the laws are distinctly different. And under the Torah, no changes of any kind were permissible. The big difference, which you noticed in passing, is that the Prince will then be appointed to act as priest. This is not only different from Torah law, but under that law, any ruler that presumed to offer sacrifices was severely punished by God himself.

Whey you imagine that one part of the Bible "goes against" another part of it, you reveal only that you do not understand what it is saying.

But nor accepting dispensationalism, you have blocked yourself from being able to understand this.

A God that could "change the rules," as He clearly did when Jesus died, can change them again after Jesus returns.

What is suitable at one time is not suitable at another. But a third system is entirely within God's prerogative.