Communion/ Eucharist/Lord's Table

[Episaw]

Many abortions save the life of a mother when the fetus has no chance of surviving outside of the womb.

BTW, your source was two different abortionists who were interviewed on TV? As someone who has a PhD you should know better. What verification do you have that these people were who they said they were?

One. The tag line is not discussing the life of the mother. It is stating the inescapable fact that every abortion kills a baby which it does.

Two. They were both introduced by name on chat shows. As I had a file on both of them, I did not need verification.

 

[Tangible]

In case you haven't noticed the subject of the thread is communion-eucharist-lords-table. You're discussing everything but...

May the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, guard your heart and your mind in Christ Jesus.

 

[Episaw]

That is a totally different scenario from his having dinner with his disciples and creating a ritual to remind them of him and the New Covenant when he would no longer be with him.

Depends on what you mean by ritual. if you mean the weekly Lord's table with a sip of wine and a piece of bread, or as some Catholics do every day, then the answer is no.

Jesus was a Jew as were his followers. They were meeting for the Passover meal which was once a year. They would have no concept of a weekly sip and a piece of bread and they certainly would not have read that was what Jesus was meaning when he said what he said.

So whatever you read it to mean, it cannot mean anything other than an annual Passover meal and to be quite frank, I don't need a weekly ritual to remember Jesus because I remember him every day in my daily fellowship with him.

 

[Ron Gurley]

1. Ordinance:
"Do this in remembrance of me."

Method: unimportant

 

[Episaw]

1. Ordinance:
"Do this in remembrance of me."

Method: unimportant

That suggests to me that we can take anything in scripture and make it mean what we want it to be.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Luke 22:19
And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

1 Corinthians 11:24
and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Luke 22:19
And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

1 Corinthians 11:24
and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

Why highlight only part of our Lord's words? Are the others somehow less important? Eating His body and blood doe not preclude doing so in remembrance of Him; and you omitted the "for the forgiveness of sins". The Eucharist is a means of Grace. God's Word is all or nothing.

 

[Ron Gurley]

FORGIVENESS / REMISSION ...Greek 859 - "aphesis'...release from bondage or imprisonment; forgiveness or pardon, of sins
(letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Forgiveness of Sin / Sin(s) is ONE of the spiritual benefits of salvation!...(all NASB)

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the (new) covenant,
which is poured out for many FOR forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14:24
And He said to them, “This is My blood of the (new) covenant, which is poured out FOR many.

Luke 22:20
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying,
“This cup which is poured out FOR you is the NEW covenant IN My blood.

Luke 1:77
To give to His people the knowledge of salvation,
By (knowing) the forgiveness of their sins,

Act 5:31
“He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior,
to grant repentance to Israel, and (to grant) forgiveness of sins.

Act 10:43
“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that
through His name everyone who BELIEVES in Him
receives forgiveness of sins.”

Ephesians 1:7
IN Him, we have redemption THROUGH His blood,
the forgiveness of our trespasses,
according to the riches of His GRACE

Colosians 1:14
in whom we have redemption,
the forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 12: ...Jesus: The ONLY Unpardonable/Unforgivable Sin
30 He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
31 “Therefore I say to you,
any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people,
but blasphemy against (God) the (Holy) Spirit shall not be forgiven.
32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him;
but whoever speaks against (God) the Holy Spirit,
it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

[Ron Gurley]

An RCC "sacrament" is not a necessary means to receive God's Grace.

Grace is Love and Mercy, unearned and unmerited, a spiritual Gift from God

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
For by grace you have been saved through faith;
and that (faith/belief) not of yourselves,
it is the gift of God;
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Proverbs 3:34....Yet He gives grace to the afflicted.

Acts 14:3
Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord,
who was testifying to the word of His grace,
granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands.

Romans 3:24
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression.
For if by the transgression of the one the many died,
much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

2 Corinthians 4:15
For all things are for your sakes,
so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (who accept Him)

 

[prodromos]

An RCC "sacrament" is not a necessary means to receive God's Grace.

MarkRohfrietsch is not RCC, so I have to wonder at your strawman argument. It is usually the recourse of those who are unable to address the points raised.

 

[Episaw]

Luke 22:19
And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

1 Corinthians 11:24
and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

Yeah, so what? Quoting scripture is about as useful as saying my car is red.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

An RCC "sacrament" is not a necessary means to receive God's Grace.

Grace is Love and Mercy, unearned and unmerited, a spiritual Gift from God

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
For by grace you have been saved through faith;
and that (faith/belief) not of yourselves,
it is the gift of God;
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Proverbs 3:34....Yet He gives grace to the afflicted.

Acts 14:3
Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord,
who was testifying to the word of His grace,
granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands.

Romans 3:24
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

Romans 5:15
But the free gift is not like the transgression.
For if by the transgression of the one the many died,
much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

2 Corinthians 4:15
For all things are for your sakes,
so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.

Galatians 2:21
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (who accept Him)

Your personal bias against Catholics, and your tendency to paint with a wide brush is coming through loud and clear.

This Sacrament celebrated in the literal words of our Lord, in a Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Orthodox, or Moravian Church, is a means of grace! Necessary? no, but neither is it to be rejected when our Lord so freely offers and gives it to His Church.

To employ the same kind of logic that you do for rejecting all things "catholic" (large or small "c"), one could put forth an argument, maybe even with more substantial argumentation that since the Sacraments of the Eucharist, Baptism and Confession and Absolution are not only freely offered but commanded by our Lord; the reject them would put one outside of God's Church.

Based on the above argument; the verse you quoted above could well be speaking to this very discussion:

Matthew 12: ...Jesus: The ONLY Unpardonable/Unforgivable Sin
30 He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
31 “Therefore I say to you,
any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people,
but blasphemy against (God) the (Holy) Spirit shall not be forgiven.
32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him;
but whoever speaks against (God) the Holy Spirit,
it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

[Ron Gurley]

I do not reject all things RCC.

I reject all RCC dogma and doctrine that is not supported by and contrary to the Bible, the living untwisted "word of God".

The Bible's production was spiritually miraculous...accomplished by spirit-led men.

RELIABILITY of the 4 Gospels and "Dr." Luke's investigations in at least Acts 1-12:

John 14:26 (Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse)
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
...(And DID!...spirit-led PERFECT RECALL)

What the Bible says about itself:

2 Timothy 3: 14-17...All Scripture is God-breathed
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of,because you know those from whom you learned it,
15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

John 20:30-31 (NIV); 21:25...that you may BELIEVE...the historical BOOKS!
30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples,
which are not recorded in this book.
31 But these are written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that by believing you may have life in his name.
21:25 Jesus did many other things as well.
If every one of them were written down,
I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

2 Peter 1: 19-21...Men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
So we have the prophetic WORD (Scripture) made more sure,
to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Luke 24:27, 32, 44-45...the post resurrection super BIBLE study...He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures
he (Jesus) explained to them (2 Emmaus followers) what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.
They said to one another,
“Were not our hearts burning within us (Holy Spirit?) while He was speaking to us on the road,
while He (Jesus) was explaining the Scriptures to us?”
(...at the "fish fry" to His followers)
Now He said to them,
“These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Here are a few of the TRUE attributes of the "WORD of GOD".

Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written,
‘Man shall not live on bread alone,
but on every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’”

Revelation 19:13 ...The Rider on the White Horse
He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood,
and His name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 1:2 ...To John the Elder
who testified to the Word of God and
to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

1 Peter 1:23
for you have been" born again"
not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring Word of God.

Hebrews 4:12
For the WORD of GOD is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow,
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

1 John 2:14
I have written to you, fathers,
because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the Word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.(satan / followers)

Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and
the sword of the Spirit,
which is the Word of God.

Luke 8:11
“Now the parable is this: the seed is the Word of God

 

[Episaw]

I do not reject all things RCC.

I reject all RCC dogma and doctrine that is not supported by and contrary to the Bible, the living untwisted "word of God".

The Bible's production was spiritually miraculous...accomplished by spirit-led men.

RELIABILITY of the 4 Gospels and "Dr." Luke's investigations in at least Acts 1-12:

John 14:26 (Jesus to his followers: Upper Room Discourse)
"But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."
...(And DID!...spirit-led PERFECT RECALL)

What the Bible says about itself:

2 Timothy 3: 14-17...All Scripture is God-breathed
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of,because you know those from whom you learned it,
15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

John 20:30-31 (NIV); 21:25...that you may BELIEVE...the historical BOOKS!
30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples,
which are not recorded in this book.
31 But these are written that you may BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
and that by believing you may have life in his name.
21:25 Jesus did many other things as well.
If every one of them were written down,
I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

2 Peter 1: 19-21...Men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
So we have the prophetic WORD (Scripture) made more sure,
to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Luke 24:27, 32, 44-45...the post resurrection super BIBLE study...He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures
he (Jesus) explained to them (2 Emmaus followers) what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself.
They said to one another,
“Were not our hearts burning within us (Holy Spirit?) while He was speaking to us on the road,
while He (Jesus) was explaining the Scriptures to us?”
(...at the "fish fry" to His followers)
Now He said to them,
“These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Here are a few of the TRUE attributes of the "WORD of GOD".

Matthew 4:4
But He answered and said, “It is written,
‘Man shall not live on bread alone,
but on every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’”

Revelation 19:13 ...The Rider on the White Horse
He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood,
and His name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 1:2 ...To John the Elder
who testified to the Word of God and
to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

1 Peter 1:23
for you have been" born again"
not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring Word of God.

Hebrews 4:12
For the WORD of GOD is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,
and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow,
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

1 John 2:14
I have written to you, fathers,
because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the Word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.(satan / followers)

Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and
the sword of the Spirit,
which is the Word of God.

Luke 8:11
“Now the parable is this: the seed is the Word of God

I am always suspect of anyone who throws out verses ad infinitum without exegesis.

I could copy and paste swathes of scripture but without exegesis they are useless.

 

[Episaw]

Your personal bias against Catholics, and your tendency to paint with a wide brush is coming through loud and clear.

This Sacrament celebrated in the literal words of our Lord, in a Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Orthodox, or Moravian Church, is a means of grace! Necessary? no, but neither is it to be rejected when our Lord so freely offers and gives it to His Church.

To employ the same kind of logic that you do for rejecting all things "catholic" (large or small "c"), one could put forth an argument, maybe even with more substantial argumentation that since the Sacraments of the Eucharist, Baptism and Confession and Absolution are not only freely offered but commanded by our Lord; the reject them would put one outside of God's Church.

Based on the above argument; the verse you quoted above could well be speaking to this very discussion:

So glad I am not a member of any of the churches you listed because that would deprive me of the grace of God without having to go through rituals.

 

[prodromos]

So glad I am not a member of any of the churches you listed because that would deprive me of the grace of God without having to go through rituals.

Where did he say that God's grace was ONLY available through the sacraments?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

So glad I am not a member of any of the churches you listed because that would deprive me of the grace of God without having to go through rituals.

I guess you did not read this part:

Necessary? no,

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I do not reject all things RCC.

I reject all RCC dogma and doctrine that is not supported by and contrary to the Bible, the living untwisted "word of God".

<snip>

Your rejection of the Sacraments and the grace which is available through them says otherwise. While there are still some things that preclude unity between the list of Churches that I mentioned above; the sacramental nature of Baptism, the Eucharist and Confession and Absolution are not among them.

 

[ubicaritas]

Where did he say that God's grace was ONLY available through the sacraments?

The idea of something not being a matter of either/or does not fit into some peoples minds.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The idea of something not being a matter of either/or does not fit into some peoples minds.

Unfortunately, so it would seem.