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Comment on unpardinable sin

Discussion in 'Hamartiology' started by aforchrist33, Aug 10, 2002.

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  1. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

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    Dear LightBearer;

    In "Ouestions about Christianity" on "Unforgiveable Sins" post #14 you said ....

    1. "Some sins are unforgiveable" and then quote Jesus saying "Every sort of sin except one is forgiveable." (Matthew 12:31) Why do you say "some sins" meaning more then one when Jesus said "except one" meaning only one unforgiveable sin?

    2. Also how can you conclude an opinion on the asumption that  Paul wrote Hebrews when you can't prove it. and further imply that (Hebrews 6:4-6) means another unpardinable sin when it's refering to being unable to add to the final payment?

    3. You should never suggest (Hebrews 10:26,27) "No longer any sacrifice for sins" means another reference to an unpardonable sin when it refers to animal sacrifices as being rejected, No matter what Webster says!

    4. Would you please give me a scripture showing Jewish leaders "opposing Jesus" committing unforgiveable sin? and Judas not being forgiven for betrail as was Peter?

     
     
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  2. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

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    Thanks for pointing this out. I shall rephrase it “the sins of some” That should be more clearer now.

    As to my believing Paul is the author of Hebrews, it is based on this evidence.

    PAUL is best known as the apostle “to the nations.” But was his ministry confined to the non-Jews? Not at all! Just before Paul was baptized and commissioned for his work, the Lord Jesus said to Ananias: “This man [Paul] is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel.” (Acts 9:15; Gal. 2:8, 9) The writing of the book of Hebrews was truly in line with Paul’s commission to bear the name of Jesus to the sons of Israel.

    However, some critics doubt Paul’s writership of Hebrews. One objection is that Paul’s name does not appear in the letter. But this is really no obstacle, as many other canonical books fail to name the writer, who is often identified by internal evidence. Moreover, some feel that Paul may have deliberately omitted his name in writing to the Hebrew Christians in Judea, since his name had been made an object of hatred by the Jews there. (Acts 21:28) Neither is the change of style from his other epistles any real objection to Paul’s writership. Whether addressing pagans, Jews, or Christians, Paul always showed his ability to “become all things to people of all sorts.” Here his reasoning is presented to Jews as from a Jew, arguments that they could fully understand and appreciate.—1 Cor. 9:22.

    The internal evidence of the book is all in support of Paul’s writership. The writer was in Italy and was associated with Timothy. These facts fit Paul. (Heb. 13:23, 24) Furthermore, the doctrine is typical of Paul, though the arguments are presented from a Jewish viewpoint, designed to appeal to the strictly Hebrew congregation to which the letter was addressed. On this point Clarke’s Commentary, Volume 6, page 681, says concerning Hebrews: “That it was written to Jews, naturally such, the whole structure of the epistle proves. Had it been written to the Gentiles, not one in ten thousand of them could have comprehended the argument, because unacquainted with the Jewish system; the knowledge of which the writer of this epistle everywhere supposes.” This helps to account for the difference of style when compared with Paul’s other letters.

    The discovery in about 1930 of the Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46) has provided further evidence of Paul’s writership. Commenting on this papyrus codex, which was written only about a century and a half after Paul’s death, the eminent British textual critic Sir Frederic Kenyon said: “It is noticeable that Hebrews is placed immediately after Romans (an almost unprecedented position), which shows that at the early date when this manuscript was written no doubt was felt as to its Pauline authorship.” On this same question, McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia states pointedly: “There is no substantial evidence, external or internal, in favor of any claimant to the authorship of this epistle except Paul.”

    As to the time of writing, it has already been shown that Paul wrote the letter while in Italy. In concluding the letter, he says: “Take note that our brother Timothy has been released, with whom, if he comes quite soon, I shall see you.” (13:23) This seems to indicate that Paul was expecting an early release from prison and hoped to accompany Timothy, who had also been imprisoned but who had already been released. Thus, the final year of Paul’s first imprisonment in Rome is suggested as the date of writing, namely, 61 C.E.

    The course that Judas chose was a deliberate one, involving malice, greed, pride, hypocrisy, and scheming. He afterward felt remorse under the burden of guilt, as a willful murderer might at the result of his crime. Yet Judas had of his own volition made a bargain with those who Jesus said made proselytes that were subjects of Gehenna twice as much as themselves, who were also liable to “the judgment of Gehenna.” (Mt 23:15, 33) On the final night of his earthly life, Jesus himself said, actually about Judas: “It would have been finer for that man if he had not been born.” Later Christ called him “the son of destruction.”—Mr 14:21; Joh 17:12; Heb 10:26-29.



    Consider how that was the case when Jesus was on earth. God had empowered Jesus to perform thrilling miracles as a way to establish that he was the Messiah. For example, on a Sabbath day, he restored the sight of a man born blind. What a wonderful act of mercy! How appreciative the man was! He could see for the very first time! What, though, was the reaction of the religious leaders? John 9:16 relates: “Some of the Pharisees began to say [about Jesus]: ‘This is not a man from God, because he does not observe the Sabbath.’” How perverted their hearts were! Here a marvelous healing had taken place, but instead of expressing joy for the formerly blind man and appreciation for the healer, they condemned Jesus! By doing so, they doubtless sinned or blasphemed against the manifestation of God’s holy spirit, an unforgivable sin.—Matthew 12:31, 32.

    Consequently, Jesus warns these satanic opposers that “the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.” He explains: “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.” Those scribes and Pharisees have committed that unforgivable sin by maliciously attributing to Satan what is plainly a miraculous operation of God’s holy spirit. Matthew 12:22-32; Mark 3:19-30; John 7:5. 
     
  3. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

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  4. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

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    As for Heb 6: 4-6.

    Paul speaks of those who have known the truth, have been partakers of holy spirit, and then have fallen away, (meaning in Apostacy) as falling into a condition in which it is impossible “to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.” The apostle goes on to liken such ones to a field that produces only thorns and thistles and is therefore rejected and ends up being burned. This illustrates the future before them: complete annihilation.—Heb 6:4-8.

    Again, Paul says of those who “practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, [that] there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and there is a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.” He then illustrates: “Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. Of how much more severe a punishment, do you think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? . . . It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” The judgment is more severe in that such ones are not merely killed and buried in Sheol, as were violators of the Law of Moses. These go into Gehenna, from which there is no resurrection.—Heb 10:26-31
     
  5. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

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    Interesting question you raise, to compare Peters sin with that of Judas.

    Jesus new that both men would fall into sin, yet Jesus clearely indicated that Peters sin would not fall into the catagory of seriousness as judas sin, when he told Peter “Simon, Simon, look! Satan has demanded to have YOU men to sift YOU as wheat. But I have made supplication for you that your faith may not give out; and you, when once you have returned, strengthen your brothers.” Then he said to him: “Lord, I am ready to go with you both into prison and into death.” But he said: “I tell you, Peter, A cock will not crow today until you have three times denied knowing me. This indicated that Jesus new that Peters sin would be a temporary laps into "fear of man" it would be a sin from which he would recover.  Luke 22: 31-33.

    Yet of judas sin Jesus said, True, the Son of man is going away, just as it is written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been finer for that man if he had not been born. What a contrast. This really implied the seriosness of his sin as beyond forgivness. If judas had never been born he would have had more chance of a future existence than he had after his sin, which was none.  Mark 14: 21.

    No wonder jesus said of Judas, "when I was with them I used to watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me; and I have kept them, and not one of them is destroyed except the Son of destruction, in order that the scripture may be fulfilled".  John 17: 12.  Yes judas went the way of destruction reseved for all Apostates and enemies of God.
     
  6. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

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    Dear LightBearer;

    Your welcome, and thank's for your response. As to your rephraseal my response is this, in post #2,4,5 you said .....

    Subject #1. "The book of Hebrews was truly in line with Pauls commission" Not so,

    A. In addition to having signed all his letters "Romans to Philemon" (2 Thessalonians 3:17) Paul never called Jesus "A priest" or refered to "The priesthood" as did the Hebrews author.

    B. In (Galatians 1:11,12) Paul says Christ gave him the gospel "Directly by revelation" but (Hebrews 2:3) says salvation was "Confirmed unto them by those who heard Jesus.

    C. In (Romans 8:15/ 1 Corinthians 3:22/ Colossians 1:12) Paul tells us we have "Allready been made partakers of Christ by the Father" but (Hebrews 3:14) is subject to the big "If"

    D. In (Colossians 2:13) Paul says "We are already forgiven" but (Hebrews 8:8) says the new covenant is ready to be put in place "When Christ returns to forgive."

    E. In (Ephesians 1:13/ 4:30) Paul ashures us "We are sealed with the Holy Spirit eternally) but (Hebrews 10:36) says "We can loose our salvation."

    Keep in mind these are not contradictions but contrasts due to the dispensation of grace given to Paul. (Ephesians 3:1-5)

    Subject #2. As to Judas salvation I believe we should not use an aperant devil to justify humanity's unforgiveness. Jesus died for the sins of the world not unrepentive demons.



    I appreciate your lengthly efforts in study. But in respect to the Christian Forum rules I believe one subject at a time shorter to the point responce to avoid confusion would be appropriate.
     
  7. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

    +47
    Jehovahs Witness
    AforChrist33. Again thank you for your comments.

    I hope these replies are short enough this time

    B In (Galatians 1:11,12) Paul says Christ gave him the gospel "Directly by revelation" but (Hebrews 2:3) says salvation was "Confirmed unto them by those who heard Jesus.

    I don’t see a problem here. Paul is simply saying that the revealed truth that he received directly from Jesus Christ was also verified by other means. For example signs.

    In the first century miraculous gifts attended the baptism with holy spirit. These served as signs that God was no longer using the Jewish congregation in his service but that his approval rested on the Christian congregation established by his Son. (Heb 2:2-4)


    D. In (Colossians 2:13) Paul says "We are already forgiven" but (Hebrews 8:8) says the new covenant is ready to be put in place "When Christ returns to forgive."

    Previously in verse 6 the writer confirms that the new covenant is already in operation and not waiting for Christ to return. (“But now [Jesus] has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established upon better promises”.) In the next few verses he confirms how was foretold and necessary.

    God foretold the new covenant by the prophet Jeremiah in the seventh century B.C.E., stating that it would not be like the Law covenant, which Israel broke. (Jer 31:31-34) On the night before his death, Nisan 14, 33 C.E., when he established the celebration of the Lord’s Evening Meal, Jesus Christ announced the new covenant, to be validated by his sacrifice. (Lu 22:20) On the 50th day from his resurrection and 10 days after he had ascended to his Father, he poured out the holy spirit, which he had received from Jehovah, on his disciples gathered in an upper room in Jerusalem.—Ac 2:1-4, 17, 33; 2Co 3:6, 8, 9; Heb 2:3, 4.

    E. In (Ephesians 1:13/ 4:30) Paul ashures us "We are sealed with the Holy Spirit eternally) but (Hebrews 10:36) says "We can loose our salvation."

    I see nowhere in these scriptures where the sealing is Eternally. It does however warn in Chpt 4:30 “not to greive the Holy Spirit. Christians are entreated not to “accept the undeserved kindness of God and miss its purpose.” (2Co 6:1) They are counseled: “Do not be grieving [saddening] God’s holy spirit.” (Eph 4:30, Int) Also, “Do not put out the fire of the spirit.” (1Th 5:19) Otherwise they may continue to the point of sin and blasphemy against God’s spirit, in effect outraging it, in which case there is no repentance or forgiveness, only destruction. Mt 12:31, 32; Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-31.


    Subject #2. As to Judas salvation I believe we should not use an aperant devil to justify humanity's unforgiveness. Jesus died for the sins of the world not unrepentive demons.

    You are sadley mistaken. Did you not ever read in the Law of God.
    Deut. 19:11-13) No sanctuary was to be made for the willful murderer, neither could a ransom be paid for his soul. (Num. 35:31)

    While it is true that Christ’s ransom sacrifice was given for mankind in general, Jesus indicated that its actual application nevertheless would be limited when he said: “Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many. (Mt 20:28) God has the right to refuse to accept a ransom for anyone he deems unworthy. Christ’s ransom covers the sins an individual has because of being a child of sinful Adam, but a person can add to that by his own deliberate, willful course of sin, and he can thus die for such sin that is beyond coverage by the ransom.
     
  8. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

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    Dear LightBearer;

    Again your welcome! and thank's for shortning our threads, I find it makes our chats less confusing. I believe if we can begine with Subject #1 line A. and come to a conclusion it would benifit us both to proceed to line B.

    Subject #1. Line A.

    In addition to having signed all his letters "Romans to Philemon" (2 Thessalonisns 3:17) Paul never called Jesus "A priest" or reffered to "The priesthood" as did the Hebrews author.

    True or False?
     
  9. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Hate to be a stick in the mud, but this is not a place of debate you can take it up in PM if you would like or in the approprate theological section. If you want this thread moved please Pm me or any staff. Thanks. :)

    *mod hat off*
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    Per request this thread has been moved and openned

    *mod hat off*
     
  11. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

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    You seem to want me to prove that Paul wrote the book, I cant, since as you say he did,nt sign it as is other letters.  All I,ve been trying to do is offer evidence that he did, such as that below. It,s good enouth for me. By the way, who do you say wrote it? I'd be most interested to know.

    It was in Caesarea that Paul, at his trial before Festus, appealed his case to Caesar. He was then taken by boat to Myra, where, together with other prisoners, he was transferred to a grain boat from Alexandria that was headed for Italy. (Ac 25:6, 11, 12; 27:1, 5, 6) Shipwrecked on the voyage, they had to winter on the island of Malta. Then probably in the spring of 59 C.E., Paul first touched Italian soil at Rhegium on the “toe” of Italy, and shortly thereafter he disembarked at Puteoli on the Bay of Pozzuoli (Naples). Here, more than 160 km (100 mi) S of Rome, Paul stayed for a week with the local congregation before going on up to Rome via the Appian Way, along which, at “the Marketplace of Appius and Three Taverns,” he was met by the brothers from Rome. (Ac 28:11-16) Likely, toward the end of Paul’s first Roman imprisonment, or shortly after his release in about 61 C.E., (EVIDENTLY) he wrote the book of Hebrews while still in Italy.—Heb 13:24.

    The Greek and Asiatic Christians from earliest times held that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. Perhaps among the most conclusive evidences is the Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46), discovered in 1931. It is part of a codex and consists of eighty-six leaves, beginning with Romans, followed by Hebrews and then seven more of Paul’s letters. It makes clear that around the year 200 C.E. the book of Hebrews was recognized as one of Paul’s letters.

    I accept the objection that you raised that in Paul’s thirteen other letters he repeatedly gives his name, yet not once does he do this in the book of Hebrews. Why would he want to remain anonymous? No doubt because of the prejudice of the Jews against him personally, and because of his being known as the apostle to the nations or Gentiles. And although Paul was sent forth as the apostle to the Gentiles, Ananias was told that Paul would also preach to “the sons of Israel.”—Acts 9:15.

    That Paul would write such a letter is in keeping with his deep concern for his Jewish countrymen. He suffered great anguish because of their unbelief. (Rom. 9:1-5; 10:1-4) And he labored in behalf of relief for the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. (2 Cor. chaps. 8 and 9) So it would be just like Paul, noting the persecution and religious pressure that these Christianized Jews had to contend with, to write them such a letter, filled as it is with exhortation, admonition, illuminating exposition, encouragement and stern warnings.
     
  12. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

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    Dear LightBearer;

    It's not my intention to have you prove Paul did or didn't write Hebrews, due to a missing signature. My concern is that I find too many who are willing to justify their doctrine based on an unknown author. I believe further attributing a circumcisional gospel to an uncircumcisional messenger is not rightly dividing Law from Grace which leads to confusion and strife in the body of Christ.

    Therefore I will asume by your speculations that your unwilling to consider the posibility of Hebrews being addressed dispensationally to a Jewish National priesthood?
     
  13. LightBearer

    LightBearer Veteran

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    You assume wrongly.

    In addition to having signed all his letters "Romans to Philemon" (2 Thessalonisns 3:17) Paul never called Jesus "A priest" or reffered to "The priesthood" as did the Hebrews author.

    True or False?

    Answer: True.

    As i have said, that Paul’s name does not appear in the letter is not an obstacle to me accepting his Authorship, as many other canonical books fail to name the writer, these are identified by the  internal evidence. It's probable, that Paul deliberately omitted his name in writing to the Hebrew Christians in Judea, because his name had been made an object of hatred by the Jews there. (Acts 21:28) As for the change of style from his other epistles being a reason for objecting to Paul’s writership. Paul in Hebrew gives an example of how he, whether he was addressing pagans, Jews, or Christians, Paul always showed his ability to “become all things to people of all sorts.” Here in the book of hebrews his reasoning is presented to Jews as from a Jew, arguments that they could fully understand and appreciate.—1 Cor. 9:22.

    And so we find Paul refering to Jesus as a Preist and to the Preisthood because, Hebrews is a legal argument in support of Christ, with proof from the Hebrew Scriptures. It takes the various features of the Mosaic Law—the covenant, the blood, the mediator, the tent of worship, the priesthood, the offerings—and shows them to have been nothing more than a pattern made by God pointing forward to far greater things to come, all culminating in Christ Jesus and his sacrifice, the fulfillment of the Law. The Law “which is made obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away,” said Paul. But “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever.” (8:13; 13:8; 10:1)

    A question for you.

    Do you accept that the Book of Hebrews is part of the Inspired Word of God and is Truth?
     
  14. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

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    Dear LightBearer;

    1. Jesus word may remain the same always but His method of dealing with Law and grace did change, which is the reason for rightly dividing His word! I find it so discusting when people try to use that scripture to discredit a dispensational change in time took place. (Ephesians 3:2)

    Another sneaky way to discredit grace are those who try to use "Devil's believing in God also" to try to suggest that our faith alone in believing Jesus died to pay for all our sins and rising for our justification is not enough to save us. How deceitful to compare humanity to demons that refuse salvation.

    2. I most certainly do "accept that the book of Hebrews is a part of the inspired word of God." All scripture is given for our learning, ( 2 Timothy 3:16) but not all for our doing. The bible says to build an ark, keep the law, stone adulteres, but that's not my mail dispensationally!

    But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor HANDLING THE WORD OF GOD DECEITFULLY; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. (2 Corinthians 4:2)
     
  15. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

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    There is only one sin that is unpardinable today in the Church age and that is rejecting The Lord Jesus Christ as your Saviour.

     

    1 John 5
    10   He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
    11   And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    12   He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life
    .
     
  16. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

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    Dear Julie;

    Great answer! I'm often amazed at the lack of God given common sence in people. If there is only "ONE" unpardenable sin, and we know after death rejection of Jesus will never be forgiven! Where do Christians get ""TWO" by naming another unpardenable action?????????
     
  17. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    *mod hat on*

    Aforchrist..remember rules okay ;) Be kind to your fellow posters. People have different views just remember that.

    *mod hat off*
     
  18. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
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    May I intrude with a couple of comments? (Just skip if the answer is "no"). ;)
    Hebrews 3:14 is identical to the "perseverance" admonished in Col1:21-23 (especially vs23)---both are warning, "IF YOU CONTINUE". Further, vs 23's, "not be moved away from the hope of the Gospel" is undeniably challenging the reader to "not be moved away from JESUS"---precisely the same warning as in Heb10:35.
    I concur with your "take" on Heb10:36; but I do not think Eph1 & 4 guarantee salvation eternally.

    Consider Eph1:4 as endorsing, "that HE was predestined from the beginning, that we are chosen IN HIM by our own FAITH"---word for word from 2Thess2:13 ("chosen from the beginning for salvation through Spirit-sanctification AND THROUGH OUR OWN FAITH")---reflecting Matt22:2-14's proposition that "the CHOSEN are those who RECEIVED & REPENTED" (especially vs 14).

    Eph1:11 says "we ...having been predestined according to His purpose" (His PURPOSE was CHRIST-ON-THE-CROSS---that whosoever believes is saved); Verse 13: "In Him, after listening to the message, ...having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, given as a pledge..." The whole thing is conditioned upon belief.

    Eph4:30 says, "...by which you were sealed FOR the day of redemption"---this uses "EIS", which is "UNTO"---not "UNTIL". Not guarantee, but conditioned upon our faith (our not-grieving-the-Holy-Spirit)...

    Just my 2&#162.

    :)
     
  19. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    Unpardonable sin? That of rejecting Christ.

    Luke 12:
    8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
    9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
    10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

    Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

    Mt 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
     
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