Comment on 'The Star of Bethlehem' by Duncan Steel...

[Carl Emerson]

This is a segment of a longer read here...

Great conjunctions and the star/comet of Bethlehem

The Comet of Bethlehem?
The biblical story (in the Gospel of St Matthew) has a star appearing in the east and leading the Magi westwards to Bethlehem.

It happens that ancient Chinese records have a comet appearing early in March in 5 BCE in Capricornus, which was then in the east. The comet was visible for at least 70 days (consistent with the timescale for the travel of the Magi) and it moved from the east to the south, again consistent with the biblical story.

While this is only mentioned briefly here, the identification of the Star of Bethlehem with this comet has been widely written about, analysed, and criticised. This formed the substance of a chapter of a book I wrote two decades ago about the history and astronomy of the calendar, but there have been many other discussions of the facts and their interpretations published elsewhere.

Does 5 BCE fit?
Just to finish off this short discussion of the birth of Jesus, I might anticipate that some readers might imagine that a comet appearing in 5 BCE cannot fit. That is a false impression.

It is well-known to chronologists that the dating of our era (AD/BC, or CE/BCE) is ‘wrong’ in that Jesus was born some years earlier than the zero mark in that dating scale (about which, more below). This error is apparently due to the Scythian monk Dionysius Exiguus (Dennis the Little!), who was charged by the Pope in the early sixth century with deriving a set of tables for future dates of Easter, having made a simple error: he interpreted a record of Jesus having been born in a certain year of the reign of Augustus Caesar as counting from when that first emperor assumed that name (in 27 BCE) rather than from when that person actually took control of the Roman Empire (in 31 BCE), at which time he was still known as Octavian. Thus a four-year slip-up occurred.

A date for the birth of Jesus shortly before the middle of April in 5 BCE is consistent with the biblical and other records, such as the reign or Herod, and the date of Passover.

 

[Carl Emerson]

D Taylor might like to explain why he considers the OP 'funny'

Duncan Steel is one the the worlds leading Astrophysicists.

 

[dqhall]

This is a segment of a longer read here...

Great conjunctions and the star/comet of Bethlehem

The Comet of Bethlehem?
The biblical story (in the Gospel of St Matthew) has a star appearing in the east and leading the Magi westwards to Bethlehem.

It happens that ancient Chinese records have a comet appearing early in March in 5 BCE in Capricornus, which was then in the east. The comet was visible for at least 70 days (consistent with the timescale for the travel of the Magi) and it moved from the east to the south, again consistent with the biblical story.

While this is only mentioned briefly here, the identification of the Star of Bethlehem with this comet has been widely written about, analysed, and criticised. This formed the substance of a chapter of a book I wrote two decades ago about the history and astronomy of the calendar, but there have been many other discussions of the facts and their interpretations published elsewhere.

Does 5 BCE fit?
Just to finish off this short discussion of the birth of Jesus, I might anticipate that some readers might imagine that a comet appearing in 5 BCE cannot fit. That is a false impression.

It is well-known to chronologists that the dating of our era (AD/BC, or CE/BCE) is ‘wrong’ in that Jesus was born some years earlier than the zero mark in that dating scale (about which, more below). This error is apparently due to the Scythian monk Dionysius Exiguus (Dennis the Little!), who was charged by the Pope in the early sixth century with deriving a set of tables for future dates of Easter, having made a simple error: he interpreted a record of Jesus having been born in a certain year of the reign of Augustus Caesar as counting from when that first emperor assumed that name (in 27 BCE) rather than from when that person actually took control of the Roman Empire (in 31 BCE), at which time he was still known as Octavian. Thus a four-year slip-up occurred.

A date for the birth of Jesus shortly before the middle of April in 5 BCE is consistent with the biblical and other records, such as the reign or Herod, and the date of Passover.

Learning the words and acts of Jesus after nearly 2021 years ago is better than looking for ways to harmonize nativity traditions with historical records.

Finding a census taken in 5 BC is difficult. According to historians the census taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria as described in Luke 2:2 may have been taken in 6 AD.
Quirinius - Wikipedia

Luke provided a date for John the Baptist’s ministry as the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar — AD 26:
Luke 3:1 (NIV) In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar—when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene— 2 during the high-priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the wilderness.

Jesus may

 

[d taylor]

D Taylor might like to explain why he considers the OP 'funny'

Duncan Steel is one the the worlds leading Astrophysicists.

Funny but in actuality really sad, that christianity has stooped so low, as to look outside of The Bible for answers that are plainly stated in The Bible.

The Bible plainly states that this is a star that led the wise men and not only did the star lead the wise men to The Messiah. After guiding them there, the star stood over the place where The Messiah was.

When they heard the king, they departed; and behold, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Funny but in actuality really sad, that christianity has stooped so low, as to look outside of The Bible for answers that are plainly stated in The Bible.

The Bible plainly states that this is a star that led the wise men and not only did the star lead the wise men to The Messiah. After guiding them there, the star stood over the place where The Messiah was.

When they heard the king, they departed; and behold, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was.

This is not Christianity looking for answers - it is a comment from a contemporary scientist with no theological axe to grind.

When the text says 'star' I imagine it means a light in the sky of unknown origin.

For it to hover over a building raised issues about it's nature.

 

[d taylor]

This is not Christianity looking for answers - it is a comment from a contemporary scientist with no theological axe to grind.

When the text says 'star' I imagine it means a light in the sky of unknown origin.

For it to hover over a building raised issues about it's nature.

So why can you not take the use of star used in this verse just as it is written.

From a Biblical stand point, the only other possible use of star in The Bible. Could be a reference to an angel, as the two words have been used for each other in The Bible.

 

[SkyWriting]

Funny but in actuality really sad, that Christianity has stooped so low, as to look outside of The Bible for answers that are plainly stated in The Bible.

Because the Bible favors looking at nature rather than reading anything, anywhere.


Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Romans 1:19
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

Isaiah 40:26
Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.

Psalm 19:1-6
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.

Psalm 33:6-9
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. He gathers the waters of the sea as a heap; he puts the deeps in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him! For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

Psalm 8:3
When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,

Romans 2:15
They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

Psalm 119:90
Your faithfulness endures to all generations; you have established the earth, and it stands fast.

Psalm 104:5
He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.

Deuteronomy 4:19
And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.

Psalm 148:8-12
fire and hail, snow and mist, stormy wind fulfilling his word! Mountains and all hills, fruit trees and all cedars! Beasts and all livestock, creeping things and flying birds! Kings of the earth and all peoples, princes and all rulers of the earth! Young men and maidens together, old men and children!

Psalm 104:31
May the glory of the Lord endure forever; may the Lord rejoice in his works,

Job 31:26-28
if I have looked at the sun when it shone, or the moon moving in splendor, and my heart has been secretly enticed, and my mouth has kissed my hand, this also would be an iniquity to be punished by the judges, for I would have been false to God above.

 

[Bobber]

When the Wise Men heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. For something to be so clearly defined as to be OVER A HOUSE in a small town like Bethlehem that'd have to mean it was in the lower atmosphere of Earth. To be over a house that means you could triangulate it's position. If you're south of Bethlehem it'd be in the north....north of B it would be in the south....that could never be the case IF it was a star STAR in the sky in outer space. So what was the star? Star, also means shining object or radiance. My opinion....a manifestation of the glory of God that yes looked star like and bright and moving when it needed to be. It says the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. I have no reason to doubt when it came down over the place where Jesus was it probably did look like the picture below.

 

[Bobber]

When the text says 'star' I imagine it means a light in the sky of unknown origin.

For it to hover over a building raised issues about it's nature.

In the bigger picture of things it probably wasn't considered too significant of a thing in the minds of men that occurred as it's only found recorded in Matthews's gospel . I've always found the subject interesting though for I know it just couldn't have been a real star, STAR from space for it never could define itself as over a house where Jesus was. Now UFO enthusiasts would jump on the bandwagon saying that it would have to be a UFO but it wasn't. IMO it was a manifestation of God's glory manifesting similar to on the Mt of Transfiguration when the light, energy, glory of God came forth from Jesus except this glory manifested in the sky.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So why can you not take the use of star used in this verse just as it is written.

From a Biblical stand point, the only other possible use of star in The Bible. Could be a reference to an angel, as the two words have been used for each other in The Bible.

What makes you think I cant ???

Sadly you have jumped to conclusions about me without cause.

 

[d taylor]

What makes you think I cant ???

Sadly you have jumped to conclusions about me without cause.

If you believe the account as given in The Bible why post something that is in a direct contrast. That are sourced from outside of The Bible.

Like i stated going by The Bible it was either a star or an angle The Bible leaves on other option. Other options are man created and are flawed.

 

[d taylor]

Because the Bible favors looking at nature rather than reading anything, anywhere.


Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Romans 1:19
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

Isaiah 40:26
Lift up your eyes on high and see: who created these? He who brings out their host by number, calling them all by name, by the greatness of his might, and because he is strong in power not one is missing.

Psalm 19:1-6
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.

Psalm 33:6-9
By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of his mouth all their host. He gathers the waters of the sea as a heap; he puts the deeps in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him! For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.

Psalm 8:3
When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place,

Romans 2:15
They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

Psalm 119:90
Your faithfulness endures to all generations; you have established the earth, and it stands fast.

Psalm 104:5
He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.

Deuteronomy 4:19
And beware lest you raise your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, you be drawn away and bow down to them and serve them, things that the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven.

Psalm 148:8-12
fire and hail, snow and mist, stormy wind fulfilling his word! Mountains and all hills, fruit trees and all cedars! Beasts and all livestock, creeping things and flying birds! Kings of the earth and all peoples, princes and all rulers of the earth! Young men and maidens together, old men and children!

Psalm 104:31
May the glory of the Lord endure forever; may the Lord rejoice in his works,

Job 31:26-28
if I have looked at the sun when it shone, or the moon moving in splendor, and my heart has been secretly enticed, and my mouth has kissed my hand, this also would be an iniquity to be punished by the judges, for I would have been false to God above.

So how does looking at nature inform you about an event that happened some 2000 years ago.

Does looking at nature tell someone about how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life or that Jesus walked on water or was crucified and was resurrected.

Looking at nature can give a person the idea that there is a creator.

 

[Carl Emerson]

If you believe the account as given in The Bible why post something that is in a direct contrast. That are sourced from outside of The Bible.

Like i stated going by The Bible it was either a star or an angle The Bible leaves on other option. Other options are man created and are flawed.

The account as given in the Bible is not specific in regard to the nature of the 'star' that was followed.

That leaves us to ponder on possibilities.

Science is given to man to discover the Glories of God and is a legitimate tool in the process of determining what has happened in the past.

 

[d taylor]

The account as given in the Bible is not specific in regard to the nature of the 'star' that was followed.

That leaves us to ponder on possibilities.

Science is given to man to discover the Glories of God and is a legitimate tool in the process of determining what has happened in the past.

I have not seen any evidence from science concerning God's creation, of any discovering any glories of God.

All i know and trust about God's creation comes from The Bible. Sicking with the accounts given in The Bible, a person (believer) can not be deceived by satan.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I have not seen any evidence from science concerning God's creation, of any discovering any glories of God.

All i know and trust about God's creation comes from The Bible. Sicking with the accounts given in The Bible, a person (believer) can not be deceived by satan.

Take a look at theses images from the Hubble telescope...

https://www.shutterstock.com/search/hubble+telescope+images

Do they not present the Glory of our Creator God and the miracle of His Saving Grace on the tiny dot we inhabit?

Does not post #7 acknowledge many references in scripture to appreciating God's Glory through nature?

 

[d taylor]

Take a look at theses images from the Hubble telescope...

https://www.shutterstock.com/search/hubble+telescope+images

Do they not present the Glory of our Creator God and the miracle of His Saving Grace on the tiny dot we inhabit?

Does not post #7 acknowledge many references in scripture to appreciating God's Glory through nature?

I will shorten this discussion, because i really have grown tired (over the last year or so) of these back and forths about science and creation.

I do not believe science's or scientist creation accounts, images, etc... I believe what God has spoken to us from The Tanakh and the little information given in The New Testament.

For believers at the Judgment seat of The Messiah all can explain their beliefs and why they held them. That is where what a believer believed, will matter, not to determine salvation but loss or gain of rewards.

 

[SkyWriting]

So how does looking at nature inform you about an event that happened some 2000 years ago.Does looking at nature tell someone about how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life or that Jesus walked on water or was crucified and was resurrected.Looking at nature can give a person the idea that there is a creator.

You're correct. The Bible does not claim salvation for reading anything.
It says that the Holy Sprit speaks to people direct to their heart.

2 Corinthians 3:3
And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us,
written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God,
not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 10:16
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”

Proverbs 3:3
Let not steadfast love and faithfulness forsake you; bind them around your neck; write them on the tablet of your heart.

Jeremiah 17:1
“The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron; with a point of diamond it is engraved on the tablet of their heart, and on the horns of their altars,

 

[HARK!]

Here is a 2009 article on this subject:

Professor Grant Mathews is director of Notre Dame’s Center for Astrophysics.

Finding the Christmas Star | Notre Dame Magazine | University of Notre Dame

 

[d taylor]

You're correct. The Bible does not claim salvation for reading anything.

Why are you speaking for me and saying something i never said.

 

[SkyWriting]

Why are you speaking for me and saying something i never said.

It's polite to be agreeable in posts. Especially to start out with agreement. Though I understand that you don't agree with my claim of agreement between us.

If you begin a post with with something like "Dear Twittering Dimble..." then people don't read the rest of a post, so I avoid that whenever possible.