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Maren

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The Constitution actually says "...to promote the general welfare", and it doesn't mean what you apparently think it means.

Quoting the Tenth Amendment, Jefferson wrote: “I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That ‘all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people.’ To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition.”

The authority of the goverment to "promote the general welfare" is limited to the enumerated powers, and nothing else.

Funny how many people here (and I believe this includes you) that quote a writing of Jefferson's and want it accepted as gospel truth when it fits their beliefs, but completely want to ignore what Jefferson wrote about the separation of church and state. It is even more interesting when you consider that Jefferson was not involved in the writing of the Constitution (he was in France at the time), though his ideas (according to Madison, specifically the law Jefferson wrote to give religious freedom in Virginia) were the basis for the religion clause of the first amendment.
 
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MachZer0

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The Constitution actually says "...to promote the general welfare", and it doesn't mean what you apparently think it means.
To be completely accurate, the Constitution says:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"

As Jefferson and Madison both explained, the enumerated power in that clause is the collection of taxes, while providing for the common defense and general welfare is the purpose, not the power. The clause should be understood to mean the common defense of the union and the general welfare of the union, not of individual persons



Quoting the Tenth Amendment, Jefferson wrote: “I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That ‘all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people.’ To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition.”

The authority of the goverment to "promote the general welfare" is limited to the enumerated powers, and nothing else.
Indeed. If providing for the general welfare was to be interpreted as our liberal friends wish, most of the rest Constitution could be eliminated.
 
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Umaro

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Funny how many people here (and I believe this includes you) that quote a writing of Jefferson's and want it accepted as gospel truth when it fits their beliefs, but completely want to ignore what Jefferson wrote about the separation of church and state. It is even more interesting when you consider that Jefferson was not involved in the writing of the Constitution (he was in France at the time), though his ideas (according to Madison, specifically the law Jefferson wrote to give religious freedom in Virginia) were the basis for the religion clause of the first amendment.

Not to mention how Jefferson was an adamant supporter of public education, yet people decry it as "against the founding fathers intended role of government." Very pick and choosy when it comes to what the founding fathers believed.
 
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okafor

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Funny how many people here (and I believe this includes you) that quote a writing of Jefferson's and want it accepted as gospel truth when it fits their beliefs, but completely want to ignore what Jefferson wrote about the separation of church and state. It is even more interesting when you consider that Jefferson was not involved in the writing of the Constitution (he was in France at the time), though his ideas (according to Madison, specifically the law Jefferson wrote to give religious freedom in Virginia) were the basis for the religion clause of the first amendment.

I quote Jefferson because it fits HIS beliefs. I could as easily quote Madison on the subject of the comment I responded to, which is "general welfare" and not freedom of religion.

“I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.” -- James Madison

And who, BTW, do you think should be quoted for "gospel truth" concerning the constitution? Obama, or Pelosi, or Reid, or someone posting on this forum?
 
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okafor

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The Constitution actually says "...to promote the general welfare", and it doesn't mean what you apparently think it means.
To be completely accurate, the Constitution says:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States"

As Jefferson and Madison both explained, the enumerated power in that clause is the collection of taxes, while providing for the common defense and general welfare is the purpose, not the power. The clause should be understood to mean the common defense of the union and the general welfare of the union, not of individual persons



Indeed. If providing for the general welfare was to be interpreted as our liberal friends wish, most of the rest Constitution could be eliminated.

You notice that when these guys have no good points to make on an issue, they go off on their "Yeh, but..." wild goose chases: "Yeh, but...education,blah blah, blah..."
 
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MachZer0

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You notice that when these guys have no good points to make on an issue, they go off on their "Yeh, but..." wild goose chases: "Yeh, but...education,blah blah, blah..."
They also seem to think that a letter Jefferson is part of the constitution itself.
 
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szechuan

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okafor

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okafor

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okafor

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szechuan

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Really? Isn't this what you actually said:

"...lives in America and claims it is a Socialist state."

Even so, I'm pretty certain the OP commented in that thread about California being "Democrat and liberal", not socialist.

Wrong, you have stated especially with your viewpoints with links that claim CA is a socialist state.

STATE = CA
U.S.A. = COUNTRY
That was what I was originally referring to.
 
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Maren

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I quote Jefferson because it fits HIS beliefs. I could as easily quote Madison on the subject of the comment I responded to, which is "general welfare" and not freedom of religion.

“I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.” -- James Madison

And who, BTW, do you think should be quoted for "gospel truth" concerning the constitution? Obama, or Pelosi, or Reid, or someone posting on this forum?

For the most part, rather than quote a single source I think we need to look at the variety of beliefs of various founding fathers. Though Madison did a good job with the Federalist Papers. But it is a mistake to talk about the "Founding Fathers as if they all had the same ideas -- they were about as fractured politically as we are today. Difference being, while they disagreed (sometimes to the point of pistols being drawn) they typically didn't demonize the other side and realized that, at least sometimes, compromise was the best thing for the country.

I think it is also important to realize that the Founding Fathers weren't infallible, and things that made sense for the country then do not necessarily make sense today. Skipping the slavery example, there is also the idea that many Founders (such as Washington and Jefferson) believed that the United States should never have a standing army -- which if we followed would drastically help the federal budget today.
 
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okafor

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For the most part, rather than quote a single source I think we need to look at the variety of beliefs of various founding fathers. Though Madison did a good job with the Federalist Papers. But it is a mistake to talk about the "Founding Fathers as if they all had the same ideas -- they were about as fractured politically as we are today. Difference being, while they disagreed (sometimes to the point of pistols being drawn) they typically didn't demonize the other side and realized that, at least sometimes, compromise was the best thing for the country.

I think it is also important to realize that the Founding Fathers weren't infallible, and things that made sense for the country then do not necessarily make sense today. Skipping the slavery example, there is also the idea that many Founders (such as Washington and Jefferson) believed that the United States should never have a standing army -- which if we followed would drastically help the federal budget today.

You know, it's really a lot more honest when liberals say they don't give a cr** about the Consitutition, that the government can do anything it wants. Why bother with all the convoluted justification?
 
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Maren

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You know, it's really a lot more honest when liberals say they don't give a cr** about the Consitutition, that the government can do anything it wants. Why bother with all the convoluted justification?

1) I'm not liberal (nor would the liberals on this board want to claim my politics)
2) Just because I don't agree with your ideas about the Constitution doesn't mean that I don't care about the Constitution. Personally, I believe in following the Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court (which is actually the Constitution the US Government follows), despite the fact that I disagree with some Supreme Court rulings.
 
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