Comic Book Religion: Which is your favorite?

Gxg (G²)

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Retroactive continuity can be annoying, and some fans conceive of these changes to Xavier's character as a betrayal of what he is supposed to be.
But I, for one, am happy that they abandoned the comfort zone of having an unbroken father figure for something more complex and demanding.
I forgot to share earlier on the issue - but as much as others hate changes with Xavier, what I find fascinating is that no one is against the concept of a man taking in other kids/raising them under his guidance. For many, the dynamic of pushing other with special gifts toward their natural parents to raise is something that bothers in an overwhelming manner.

And on the issue, there was actually an amazing story concept that GREATLY caught my attention when going against the idea that a special group or trained specialist has to raise others with powers. THe comic is based on the concept of a single mother seeking to raise her son who has super-powers, called Raising Dion." As another noted with the author of the comic:

In an interview with Fusion, Liu said he drew upon his own life and being an uncle to five nieces, and spoke with other single parents, to develop Nicole’s voice. He described Nicole as a mix of Martha Kent and Alfred Pennyworth, the adults who raised Superman and Batman.

“If these key parental figures did not raise these superheroes correctly, then who knows what Clark Kent or Bruce Wayne would have become?” Liu said. “Parents instill a value system.” You can get the first issue of Raising Dion for free on Liu’s site.


Created by Dennis Liu, a union director at the Director's Guild of America, both the first issue and the trailer promoting it offer plenty of clever touches. There's something of a comic book within the comic book, as Nicole creates an illustrated guide for Dion about when to use his powers. There's a joke lamenting the visibility of Dion's poop, considering the circumstances. There's even a well-timed dig at Batman-voice. Another important aspect of the comic book is that its central characters are people of color.

http://www.today.com/parents/comic-...s-superhero-diversity-women-minorities-t40911
Sure, there are lots of exciting and unrealistic aspects to the story, which is what makes it such a fun read, but it also serves a greater point by focusing on an African-American single mother — something that goes beyond turning a traditionally male superhero, like Thor, into a woman. "I did not want to play the race card, but honestly, as a member of the DGA EDSC [Directors Guild of America Eastern Diversity Steering Committee] Diversity council for several years, I felt like something had to be done about superhero diversity," said Liu. "I also felt the industry was simply answering the gender card by glorifying women as a war hero, like in "The Hunger Games", or the new Wonder Woman film coming out. I think this [approach] works, but I wanted to point out that it doesn't have to be the only solution." "I interviewed and researched a lot of single moms," said Liu. "The real heroism for them is the daily struggle of raising a kid, paying the bills, etc."

The main purpose of the project, according to Liu, is to "make a point," adding that "all of the content so far has been 100 percent free."

Liu also wanted to create a character that honestly represented a modern African-American single mother. So he did his homework.





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thecolorsblend

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Back in the Pre-Crisis days, Superman never shut up about Rao. Religion on Krypton has been refined over the years to the degree that the "religion" is (or was, who knows anymore?) is basically nothing like we'd recognize in the real world. It's been a while since I've read any of that so my memory might be fuzzy but I think DC ultimately reached a point where the Kryptonian religion was a completely demystified type of scientific philosophy. From the standpoint of universe-building, I rather liked the concept of an alien race developing different religious sensibilities during their history. It's hard at least for me to not connect the Kryptonian "religion" with the end goals of the sort of humanism you see today among the more scientifically-minded evangelical atheists.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Back in the Pre-Crisis days, Superman never shut up about Rao. Religion on Krypton has been refined over the years to the degree that the "religion" is (or was, who knows anymore?) is basically nothing like we'd recognize in the real world. It's been a while since I've read any of that so my memory might be fuzzy but I think DC ultimately reached a point where the Kryptonian religion was a completely demystified type of scientific philosophy. From the standpoint of universe-building, I rather liked the concept of an alien race developing different religious sensibilities during their history. It's hard at least for me to not connect the Kryptonian "religion" with the end goals of the sort of humanism you see today among the more scientifically-minded evangelical atheists.
Kryptonian religion in many respects really does reflect a type of humanism - hope in the power of science/the mind
 
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Gxg (G²)

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The issue of complexity goes for when you had mutants with philosophies that were dedicated to wiping out mutants/humans they felt were not strong/worth living (like Apocalypse - an extreme Social Darwinist whose belief in "survival of the fittest" is central to his worldview and goals of pitting mutants against each other) - while there were mutants wanting to protect mutants at all cost (like Magneto) and others whom you never knew where they stood...

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Wondering if there's anyone here excited about the new X-Men film coming out detailing the rise of Apocalypse....


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And yes, when following the comics, it is epic to see Magneto defeat the original mutant.

The battle of ideologies will always be amazing :) But then again, Magneto will always be amazing being who He is....


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thecolorsblend

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Wondering if there's anyone here excited about the new X-Men film coming out detailing the rise of Apocalypse....
Wonder no more. I'm rather looking forward to it. I rather studiously avoided Marvel comics through the 90's and most of the 2000's for different reasons. But I've really warmed up to them in past 10 or 12 years. I'm pretty up for the game when it comes to an Apocalypse movie. It brings higher concept material into play rather than yet another showdown with Magneto. Speaking of which...

and yes, when following the comics, it is epic to see Magneto defeat the original mutant. The battle of ideologies will always be amazing :) But then again, Magneto will always be amazing being who He is....
Indeed. His worldview is one of the most interesting in all of comics. He's an antagonist but I'm not sure how accurate it is to call him a "villain". Or if such a label really applies to X-Men baddies anyway.

In fact, goings on with Magneto ultimately ruined the Ultimate universe for me. Rather than being a legitimate next step in human evolution, mutants are revealed to be basically just lab experiments by normal humans. Apart from neutering the entire conflict between Xavier and Lensherr, it diminishes his moral argument. From a rationalistic standpoint, Magneto has a leg to stand on. Advances in biology (dare I say "evolution") usually mean the superior subset of the species will destroy their inferiors given the chance. That's part of nature. To rob Magneto of a legitimate motive like that makes his methods utterly meaningless. Arbitrary, even.

What works for me about Magneto and Professor X in the 616 universe was how the reader was always left wondering who was actually the more evolved of the two. Is it Magneto for recognizing the threat posed to mutantkind and wanting to protect himself and his people? Or Professor X for recognizing the exact same thing but believing that part of their evolution necessarily means finding a better way to frame their point?

Ultimately the reader can't help at least wondering that advancement in genetic biology is somewhat worthless when it's not accompanied by advancement in morals and intellect.

Removing true advancement by reducing mutantkind to lab experiments robs the narrative of its pathos. Yes, it's a death knell to Magneto's superiority (which, very often, took the form of separatism rather than supremacism in 616verse) and it was powerful to see Magneto destroyed at his moral core in such a way but it robbed the story of way too much pathos, philosophy and drama.

Anyway, sorry to ramble like this, I just wanted to get all that off my chest. Ahhhhh, now I can go get a bowl of Cocoa Puffs.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Cool to know you grew up with the same series and appreciated it. It was truly astounding and they have always had such a great conflict that you can relate to - and ironic seeing that anyone else in the Marvel Universe could be given super-powers (i.e. Spiderman bitten by a radioactive spider, the Fantastic Four transformed by cosmic radiation, Captain America transformed into a super-soldier by a secret formula, etc.) and people love them - yet if you're born a mutant, you end up persecuted/hated and despised. Even Captain America admitted the racism and problems apparent with how mutants were treated..

I forgot to mention earlier how the ways that Cyclops has evolved have been fascinating when considering his own religious or ideological stances. To be more specific, we already know how it was intended to have Magneto and Xavier be parallels of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King.


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That said I have MAD Respect to the people adding to the parallels of historical figures by keeping Malcolm X in the form of Magneto - but then switching it to show the young radicalism now embodied in Cyclops, who's the new face of MUTANT revolution and fighting for both mutants/humans but now being EXTREMELY aggressive/willing to be militant in the sense of coming after ANY humans not respecting mutants. They are saving mutants from condemnation, albeit with extreme violence.

Love the swtich with having Cyclops/Scott Summers become a mutant revolutionary - and in contrast to Martin Luther King as Xavier and Malcolm X as Magneto, Cyclops is essentially an extreme version of Stokely Carmichael, a rising young community organizer in the civil rights movement AND the person who marched with Martin Luther King Jr., campaigned for voting rights and against Vietnam, was a Pan-African revolutionary and coined the term "Black Power" which King later echoed when saying Black was Beautiful" in his later years/working with new generations of young adults willing to be more aggressive and similar to Malcolm X ...more in "Beyond ‘Black Power,’ recounting the under-told story of Stokely Carmichael:pBS" and "Stokely Carmichael, A Philosopher Behind The Black Power Movement" - and when seeing how Stokely evolved to feel Martin Luther King was out of date in many respects, it matches well with Cyclops. For as another noted, "most of his career, Scott Summers has had a father/son relationship with Charles Xavier. Cyclops was his top student, and deservedly so. However, during Messiah Complex, Scott literally kicked Xavier out of the X-Men, claiming that his methods were out of date and that he needed to evolve with the times if mutant kind hoped to survive..... At one time Magneto and Xavier were working together for mutant advancement, but their conflicting ideals forced Erik to walk away. Once again- The Dream is dead!"
It's cool when seeing how others are able to go through significant shifts...
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Magneto was originally the one fighting to have a stance on aggressively seeking mutant survival....

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However, after the arch of AVENGERS VS X-MEN, it seems Scott Summers has done well in evolving into the role and showing the shift in thought for his generation.....especially when considering how far he was willing to go to accomplish his goals.




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Gxg (G²)

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Magneto was originally the one fighting to have a stance on aggressively seeking mutant survival....

tumblr_njd0as5R0Q1t8vlr1o1_500.jpg

However, after the arch of AVENGERS VS X-MEN, it seems Scott Summers has done well in evolving into the role and showing the shift in thought for his generation.....especially when considering how far he was willing to go to accomplish his goals.
Continuing, as it concerns the theme of evolution in views...


As another noted wisely when it comes to seeing other figures grow in their views and how they end up contrasting with other iconic figures to be seen as Messianic figures in time just as their previous leaders were:


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Cyclops has always been the poster boy for the X-Men and Xavier's beliefs. Over the last few years he's slowly been changing his ways. During AVENGERS VS X-MEN, some would say Cyclops completely crossed the line in order to preserve the survival of mutants. Now seen as a criminal by the vast majority in the Marvel Universe, was this the best decision and is there any way for Cyclops to go back to a school setting?

== TEASER ==
Simply put, Cyclops has evolved. He is not the perfect obedient soldier following Xavier's dream. As far as he's concerned, that dream is dead. The world has changed and Xavier's methods failed to ensure the survival of mutants. Despite his slow move to become more proactive (sanctioning a killer X-squad and deciding young mutants need to be trained as soldiers), it was having the power of the Phoenix Force that really changed the game. He felt that with the power, he had to do whatever it took for mutants to survive. There were many casualties during the battles (including his killing Professor X) and destruction around the world which resulted in his incarceration. As long as the Phoenix Force could be used to spark the creation and return of mutants, he was perfectly willing to accept the cost.

While incarcerated, Cyclops was willing to be a political prisoner or even become a martyr for the cause he now believed in. Having arranged to be broken out of his prison by Magneto and Magik (In AVX: CONSEQUENCES #5), Cyclops has decided his battle for mutantkind is not over.


During his breakout, he took the time to have Magik banish some inmates that killed a mutant prisoner toLimbo and had Danger scar the face of the warden as a message to anyone that "tries to profit from mutant prejudice." In the past, Cyclops wouldn't have issued such punishment. The times definitely are changing.

Since Cyclops has become more extreme in his ways, there has been many debates on the message boards whether or not Cyclops was right. Does he have the right to take these matters into his own hands? Was it his position to cause the creation of more mutants, even if those that now become mutants never asked for it? Apart from the unintended murder of Charles Xavier, has Cyclops completely given up on the dream of the man that he came to see as his father?

The answer to that last question is 'no.' He still believes in the dream. It's that dream that is driving him. He simply understands that Xavier's methods can't work in today's world as the level of hatred and fear has risen to an all time high. Al the X-Men are aware of the possible dismal future that they could all be facing. Upon busting out of his prison, Cyclops left Wolverine a letter.





He told Wolverine to continue with the school and the teaching of Xavier's ways. He believes he will be able to give the young mutants of today a better tomorrow. He knows he will have to give up a lot in order to push the world to accept mutants and to ensure their safety and survival. He will fight the battles so that Wolverine won't' have to and can concentrate on the teaching of those young mutants. He is willing to do things that others might perceive as wrong or even criminal in order to ensure the safety of the students and other new mutants that may arise.


Cyclops mission now is be more of a strike force in the protection of his species. He will take on the name "X-Men" as well and pick up any mutants he comes across. Whether he has those mutants fight by his side or sends them off to the Jean Grey School for Higher Learning remains to be seen.

There's also the question of what Cyclops' younger self will think of his future counterparts extreme ways. That will be a big part in the pages of ALL-NEW X-MEN when the original X-Men are brought to the present.....




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Gxg (G²)

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It's cool when seeing how others are able to go through significant shifts...
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Seeing the ways that one generation is able to shift mentors and have those mentors learn from the new generation is a very big deal and it is interesting to see the ways that the worldviews have shifted when extinction has been a prominent theme....with Xavier being the one who was later rebuked by Cyclops (after his own inconsistencies were exposed) and Magneto (also checked by Xavier originally before being checked by Cyclops as well) now falling into support with Cyclops new worldview...


 
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I forgot to mention earlier how the ways that Cyclops has evolved have been fascinating when considering his own religious or ideological stances. To be more specific, we already know how it was intended to have Magneto and Xavier be parallels of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King.


B-Z1eLHCMAAZQ8C.jpg

That said I have MAD Respect to the people adding to the parallels of historical figures by keeping Malcolm X in the form of Magneto - but then switching it to show the young radicalism now embodied in Cyclops, who's the new face of MUTANT revolution and fighting for both mutants/humans but now being EXTREMELY aggressive/willing to be militant in the sense of coming after ANY humans not respecting mutants. They are saving mutants from condemnation, albeit with extreme violence.

Love the swtich with having Cyclops/Scott Summers become a mutant revolutionary - and in contrast to Martin Luther King as Xavier and Malcolm X as Magneto, Cyclops is essentially an extreme version of Stokely Carmichael, a rising young community organizer in the civil rights movement AND the person who marched with Martin Luther King Jr., campaigned for voting rights and against Vietnam, was a Pan-African revolutionary and coined the term "Black Power" which King later echoed when saying Black was Beautiful" in his later years/working with new generations of young adults willing to be more aggressive and similar to Malcolm X ...more in "Beyond ‘Black Power,’ recounting the under-told story of Stokely Carmichael:pBS" and "Stokely Carmichael, A Philosopher Behind The Black Power Movement" - and when seeing how Stokely evolved to feel Martin Luther King was out of date in many respects, it matches well with Cyclops. For as another noted, "most of his career, Scott Summers has had a father/son relationship with Charles Xavier. Cyclops was his top student, and deservedly so. However, during Messiah Complex, Scott literally kicked Xavier out of the X-Men, claiming that his methods were out of date and that he needed to evolve with the times if mutant kind hoped to survive..... At one time Magneto and Xavier were working together for mutant advancement, but their conflicting ideals forced Erik to walk away. Once again- The Dream is dead!"
It's cool when seeing how others are able to go through significant shifts...
5.jpg


What's fascinating to see with the evolution of Cyclops worldview/ideology is the fact that he's able to do self-reflection on how he used to be - and realize how much the previous ideologies he was raised to accept were never as solid as he was led to believe....he essentially allows himself to evolve in his views but to establish his own paths and forge a new path just as other revolutionary leaders in the Civil Rights era (Stokley, Fred Hampton, etc.) all did the same..

I especially liked the time-travel aspect that happened recently when the X-Men traveled back in time to try and convince themselves of things to come - similar to others wishing they could go back/warn themselves of the religious views they needed to discard and new views to adopt in order to survive.


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Gxg (G²)

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Wonder no more. I'm rather looking forward to it. I rather studiously avoided Marvel comics through the 90's and most of the 2000's for different reasons. But I've really warmed up to them in past 10 or 12 years. I'm pretty up for the game when it comes to an Apocalypse movie. It brings higher concept material into play rather than yet another showdown with Magneto.
Glad to know there's mutual anticipation for the film :) I was completely opposite of the Marvel comics in the 90s and I am always amazed at how complex they are with material - with them just now in recent times starting to catch up with the epic nature of how the stories were...
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Indeed. His worldview is one of the most interesting in all of comics. He's an antagonist but I'm not sure how accurate it is to call him a "villain". Or if such a label really applies to X-Men baddies anyway.
He's really an anti-hero and the times he has been called a "villain" are more so within the realm of when he has succumbed to self-righteousness in doing the same thing he is upset at others for.

But his worldview is truly intriguing ...
In fact, goings on with Magneto ultimately ruined the Ultimate universe for me. Rather than being a legitimate next step in human evolution, mutants are revealed to be basically just lab experiments by normal humans. Apart from neutering the entire conflict between Xavier and Lensherr, it diminishes his moral argument. From a rationalistic standpoint, Magneto has a leg to stand on. Advances in biology (dare I say "evolution") usually mean the superior subset of the species will destroy their inferiors given the chance. That's part of nature. To rob Magneto of a legitimate motive like that makes his methods utterly meaningless. Arbitrary, even.
I never really liked the Ultimate Version of Magneto - although I did think his move to use Thor's hammer was radical and showed how even mutants were not to be taken lightly when it came to the superhero community facing against enemies. Magneto has never been one to be played with.

But his being an experiment was rather pointless - and his death by Cyclops was necessary.
What works for me about Magneto and Professor X in the 616 universe was how the reader was always left wondering who was actually the more evolved of the two. Is it Magneto for recognizing the threat posed to mutantkind and wanting to protect himself and his people? Or Professor X for recognizing the exact same thing but believing that part of their evolution necessarily means finding a better way to frame their point?

Ultimately the reader can't help at least wondering that advancement in genetic biology is somewhat worthless when it's not accompanied by advancement in morals and intellect.
Both Magneto and Xavier have had to reshape their views at multiple points and the writers have done a good job of showing their convergences at many points over the years....including the light side and the good sides of both. But focusing on genetics alone as a means of establishing moral superiority is an issue discussed in Eugenics often - with this being something best demonstrated in the negative with mutants such as Apocalypse (best realized in the Age of Apocalypse saga, http://www.popoptiq.com/age-apocalypse-event-comic-biblical-proportion/ ).




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Removing true advancement by reducing mutantkind to lab experiments robs the narrative of its pathos. Yes, it's a death knell to Magneto's superiority (which, very often, took the form of separatism rather than supremacism in 616verse) and it was powerful to see Magneto destroyed at his moral core in such a way but it robbed the story of way too much pathos, philosophy and drama.

Anyway, sorry to ramble like this, I just wanted to get all that off my chest. Ahhhhh, now I can go get a bowl of Cocoa Puffs.
I understand the sentiments...and again, therere reasons wy that version of Magneto is not the favorite.
 
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What works for me about Magneto and Professor X in the 616 universe was how the reader was always left wondering who was actually the more evolved of the two. Is it Magneto for recognizing the threat posed to mutantkind and wanting to protect himself and his people? Or Professor X for recognizing the exact same thing but believing that part of their evolution necessarily means finding a better way to frame their point?
Do you feel one of them is greater than the other - or that there are others you're aware of who are greater than them both?

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I forgot to mention earlier how the ways that Cyclops has evolved have been fascinating when considering his own religious or ideological stances. To be more specific, we already know how it was intended to have Magneto and Xavier be parallels of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King.


B-Z1eLHCMAAZQ8C.jpg

That said I have MAD Respect to the people adding to the parallels of historical figures by keeping Malcolm X in the form of Magneto - but then switching it to show the young radicalism now embodied in Cyclops, who's the new face of MUTANT revolution and fighting for both mutants/humans but now being EXTREMELY aggressive/willing to be militant in the sense of coming after ANY humans not respecting mutants. They are saving mutants from condemnation, albeit with extreme violence.

Love the swtich with having Cyclops/Scott Summers become a mutant revolutionary - and in contrast to Martin Luther King as Xavier and Malcolm X as Magneto, Cyclops is essentially an extreme version of Stokely Carmichael, a rising young community organizer in the civil rights movement AND the person who marched with Martin Luther King Jr., campaigned for voting rights and against Vietnam, was a Pan-African revolutionary and coined the term "Black Power" which King later echoed when saying Black was Beautiful" in his later years/working with new generations of young adults willing to be more aggressive and similar to Malcolm X ...more in "Beyond ‘Black Power,’ recounting the under-told story of Stokely Carmichael:pBS" and "Stokely Carmichael, A Philosopher Behind The Black Power Movement" - and when seeing how Stokely evolved to feel Martin Luther King was out of date in many respects, it matches well with Cyclops. For as another noted, "most of his career, Scott Summers has had a father/son relationship with Charles Xavier. Cyclops was his top student, and deservedly so. However, during Messiah Complex, Scott literally kicked Xavier out of the X-Men, claiming that his methods were out of date and that he needed to evolve with the times if mutant kind hoped to survive..... At one time Magneto and Xavier were working together for mutant advancement, but their conflicting ideals forced Erik to walk away. Once again- The Dream is dead!"
It's cool when seeing how others are able to go through significant shifts...
5.jpg


Magneto was originally the one fighting to have a stance on aggressively seeking mutant survival....

tumblr_njd0as5R0Q1t8vlr1o1_500.jpg

However, after the arch of AVENGERS VS X-MEN, it seems Scott Summers has done well in evolving into the role and showing the shift in thought for his generation.....especially when considering how far he was willing to go to accomplish his goals.




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Forgot to add, for anyone that would be interested, that Cyclops has a very fascinating background when it comes to his theological stances and his stances being based heavily in Xavier. As said elsewhere:

Despite the general lack of overt references to Cyclops' religious affiliation, the character has been consistently portrayed as a Protestant who is nearly always morally upstanding and heroic. Scott Summers has, more than most any major Marvel superhero aside from Captain America, been portrayed as so straight-laced that he is even regarded as "stiff" or a "square." He is regarded as the ultimate "Boy Scout" among the X-Men.

Cyclops has also been one of the most ardent supporters of Professor Charles Xavier's dream of harmony of between mutants and the rest of humanity. In many regards, Xavier's "dream" can be considered Cyclops' "religion," as it is this dream that has been the primary motivational philosophy for Cyclops during most of his adult life.

After many year of courtship, Scott Summers married his longtime girlfriend and teammate Jean Grey in X-Men (volume 2) #30. Their marriage lasted many years, but was eventually ended after repeated deaths, disappearances and Phoenix transformations by Jean and Scott's psychic affair with Emma Frost (a.k.a. the "White Queen", a former enemy of the X-Men who had reformed and joined the team). Scott Summers is currently living with Emma, although they are not married.

Although the Protestant background and beliefs of Scott Summers have been manifest in many ways throughout the years, compliance with Biblical standards of sexual morality is not among them. Cyclops can probably be best described as merely a nominal Protestant. Although known for his strong moral values and his strong belief in Xavier's teachings, Cyclops has never been portrayed as particularly religious. Certainly many teammates among the X-Men, including Nightcrawler, Shadowcat, Storm and even Archangel and Jean Grey, have been portrayed as consistently religious more than Cyclops has been. In Infinity Crusade #1, a powerful being known as the Goddess abducted the individuals that she identified as the most religious super-heroes in the Marvel Universe. Jean Grey and Archangel were among those taken, but Cyclops was not.

That said, it is fascinating to see the way that Cyclop's willingness to go to extremes in the midst of survival has impacted the way that he has treated other species with other religions. As for one prominent example, I'm reminded of what happened to the Skrulls when he was on mission during the Secret Invasion (similar to Holy War):

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Shocked me, to say the least (Even though the Skrulls have been enemies of the X-Men and not trusted at many points). But to see the aggression with taking life when necessary seems to point out an "The End Justify the Means" ideology with Cyclops...

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Wonder no more. I'm rather looking forward to it. I rather studiously avoided Marvel comics through the 90's and most of the 2000's for different reasons. But I've really warmed up to them in past 10 or 12 years. I'm pretty up for the game when it comes to an Apocalypse movie. It brings higher concept material into play rather than yet another showdown with Magneto.
Just to be clear, what exactly was it that you felt was a higher concept material that comes into play?
 
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What works for me about Magneto and Professor X in the 616 universe was how the reader was always left wondering who was actually the more evolved of the two. Is it Magneto for recognizing the threat posed to mutantkind and wanting to protect himself and his people? Or Professor X for recognizing the exact same thing but believing that part of their evolution necessarily means finding a better way to frame their point?

Ultimately the reader can't help at least wondering that advancement in genetic biology is somewhat worthless when it's not accompanied by advancement in morals and intellect.
Others in the world of comics have actually pushed the ideology that advancement in genetic biology is essentially a moral responsibility. Have you ever, by chance, heard of a man known as Mr.Sinister?


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Interesting character if you ever study someone like him.....If they ever made an X-Men movie with him as a central character, I'd definitely watch it since his story arc was always interesting when it came to him pushing the limits with genetic mutation and being the first to discover mutation. It is interesting to consider how he’s a fanatic believer of Darwin’s theories, in that he lives by the survival of the fittest theorem; he, for example, ’culled out‘ the weakest mutants by attacking the Morlock society when using his group known as the Marauders...

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Those that survived were generally worthy of survival and won’t be attacked again…. that is, until next time they cross his plan


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Oh, I agree completely! "Without any further motivation" was the operating term there.

I LOVE the X-Men, and I learned to love them during the "Age of Apocalypse"-arc, remaining an avid reader for several years - for exactly the reasons you stated: morally complex characters, internal conflict and external conflict going hand in hand, etc.
Coming across this recently, I had to say that I like the dialogue that took place with Xavier and Sabertooth when it came to evaluating the morality of what should be done with power....and which one of them was either "free" or "lost"...

As said there (artwork by Scott Lobdell and Joe Madureira):



Xavier and the X-Crew have been trying to help Victor Creed, he even helped out on a couple missions and emergencies but it appears to been pointless.

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Ah, the old "Where does it stop?" argument. I'm not a fan of that argument, I think most people would see the difference between killing a mugger or even a minor costumed criminal and killing Sabretooth or the Joker.

Creed has his say.

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Well, Victor hasn't exactly had an easy life either. Tortured as a child, violence in hundreds of conflicts, brain picked apart by multiple governments and factions and a seriously extended lifespan. (What would that do a mind?)

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Artwork by Chris Bachalo

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I was just talking about Dr. Doom and how in his mind he is THE HERO!
He really thinks he is the best thing for this planet
I said that he was even able to get through a gate guarded by a national god so he could steal magic metal because the pagan god knew that he believed he was right
DC has other versions of the same concept which I highly respect. In example, one that always comes to my mind is Ra's Al Ghul...as he didn't play at all when it came to the environment...with his religious views behind such thinking being very fascinating when it came to seeing what mankind was doing to the world (and itself) and his goal of saving the world at any costs. The episode "The Demon's Quest" will always be a classic when it comes to showing eco-fanaticism and the extent of how far others will go...

As another noted:

JLA: Tower of Babel (JLA #43-46)

For a sense of just how destructive Ra’s al Ghul can be with access to the right kind of information, this JLA arc by Mark Waid depicts the villain taking down the entire Justice League by exploiting each member’s individual weaknesses. Ra’s learns about how and where to strike the Justice League after he steals files that Batman was secretly keeping on his teammates. Each JLA member eventually recovers from their individual injuries and crises to defeat Ra’s, but they view Batman’s hidden dossier on their attributes and weaknesses to be a significant betrayal and a demonstration of the Dark Knight’s paranoia run amok. The group then votes to expel Batman from the League (though he leaves before they can tell him he’s out because – of course – he knows how each member will vote based on how he’s studied them over the years).

Still, even with Batman’s book on the League, it takes an incredible criminal mind to successfully carry out a strike against each individual member of the group, making “Tower of Babel” Ra’s al Ghul’s masterstroke.

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Also,​
One of my favorite storylines was the Wheel of Plagues where he stumbled upon ancient knowledge:


This relic was created by an ancient people that once inhabited the world who were old when the likes of Ra's al Ghul were young. This civilization had somehow stumbled on the mysteries of DNA and recombinant genetics. Once learnt, they relegated this to a secret kept among their scientific priesthood who codified this art onto the Wheel which was used as a record for their experiments. This allowed the users of the relic to make use of it as a table needed to configure the structures of micro-organisms, viruses or even plagues. The fate of this society was unknown except that they seemingly disappeared from the world but not before securing the Wheel in an ancient chamber beneath the sands in Sudan. Thus, the large artifact became long lost to the world and became a famed relic for the knowledge written on its surface. At some point, Ra's al Ghul learnt of its existence and spent a hundred lifetimes in search of the Wheel of Plagues in order to create an apocalyptic virus which he could use to cleanse the world of corruption.

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Supervillain Origins: Ra's Al Ghul - YouTube
The great quotes of: Ra's al Ghul - YouTube

 
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The fight from the animated series was classic. However, they did another fight scene between Green Arrow and Ra's Al Ghul. It was fascinating to see the fact that this version of Ra's seemed to actually pray a prayer similar to a Muslim one when praying for his enemies. As someone pointed out,

As a Muslim I don't know whether to be pleased or insulted by the fact that Ra's al Ghul utters what seems to be a modified version of a Muslim funeral prayer, when he kills Oliver. The full text of the actual prayer taught by the Holy Prophet Muhammad is: "O Allah, forgive and have mercy upon him, excuse him and pardon him, and make honourable his reception. Expand his entry, and cleanse him with water, snow, and ice, and purify him of sin as a white robe is purified of filth. Exchange his home for a better home, and his family for a better family, and his spouse for a better spouse. Admit him into the Garden, protect him from the punishment of the grave and the torment of the Fire."

The responses to the show have been intriguing....


As said best elsewhere:

In the recent “Arrow” episode, an assassin takes a moment to pray before drinking poison and dying. That moment was meant to deny information to heroes Oliver Queen and Sara Lance, while simultaneously showing commitment to the League of Assassins.

But did this moment mean more? Is “Arrow” guilty of cultural or religious prejudice because a Muslim prayer was spoken before the suicide? The answer is more complicated than you might expect.

What would Ra’s al Ghul do?

It’s probably safe to say that, whether or not the “Arrow” scene did give offense, this was not the intent. Members of the League have previously shown devotion to the point of death. Captured as he was, the unnamed henchman would have little choice but to commit suicide, according to the rules set out by his organization. And even a hardened killer might utter a short prayer before death.

Why was it a Muslim prayer then? Again, there’s a straightforward, good-intentioned reason for this. The League of Assassins headquarters is said to be in a place called Nanga Parbat. I’m no expert on DC Universe geography, but the name and all descriptions of this place put it somewhere in Central Asia. Residents of this part of the world are most often either Buddhist or Muslim. With a name that seems to derive from a language in the Persian family, a predominantly Muslim region is a safe bet.

If the League recruited locally for their assassins, of course many of them would be Muslims. They wouldn’t likely be devout Muslims, not with the killing and all, but cultural and religious roots still exist in the worst of humanity. An additional reason why the writers and producers of “Arrow” might have chosen a Muslim prayer is the overtly Arabic name of the League’s head assassin, Ra’s al Ghul. The name has come to “Arrow” from DC Comics but has a long history even before that.

Traditionally, Ra’s al Ghul is the name of a bright star in the constellation, Perseus. Depicted in Greek astronomy as a heroic figure clutching the severed head of Medusa, Arabic-speaking astronomers of the Muslim world substituted “the demon” for the snake-headed woman. The star representing that severed head in the constellation was named simply “the head of the demon” — in Arabic, “ra’s al ghul.”

This famous star name traveled across time and translations, providing the origin of the current name of that star, Algol. Where did a comic-book writer pick up on the name? That may remain a mystery, but the fact remains that the villainous Ra’s al Ghul has always had an Arabic-language name.


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None of this keeps it from being offensive

The origins of Ra’s al Ghul and simple facts about geography don’t take into account viewer responses and they definitely don’t take into account cultural prejudices.

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