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Featured LDS Come Unto Christ

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Phoebe Ann, Jun 19, 2019.

  1. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Mormons have this phrase all over the internet. They don't even believe in the true God, yet they're looking for converts from Orthodoxy, Catholicism and Protestant denominations.

    Please don't be deceived. This is what missionaries are told:

    "Remember you go into the field to baptize, not just to warn or make friends.Your goal is to bring people to Christ and proclaim the truth. Nothing more, nothing less."
    Elaine Cannon & Ed J. Pinegar, Called to Serve Him, Preparing Missionaries to Bring People to Christ, copyright 1997, p. 61

    "As you prepare for your mission, consider seriously the importance of baptism. This is really the purpose of missionary work --- to being people to Christ, to show them the way back to Heavenly Father's presence. What Mormons believe about baptism is quite different from what other churches believe.

    "We believe it must be done by someone having proper authority and by immersion. Baptize comes from the Greek word baptizo meaning 'immerse.' Sprinkling doesn't do it!

    "We believe it is accepting Jesus as the Christ."
    Elaine Cannon & Ed J. Pinegar, Called to Serve Him, Preparing Missionaries to Bring People to Christ, copyright 1997, p. 67

    I can't begin to tell you how eager those missionaries were to convert me, my mother and two siblings! They came to our door one day and baptized me two weeks later! I knew very little about the Bible and almost zilch about Mormonism prior to their first visit. :(
     
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  2. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I've never heard of anyone Orthodox (either EO or OO) converting to Mormonism, and if they did, I would laugh forever (well, of course, after expressing appropriate concerns that they had joined an anti-Christian parasitic movement), only because the ecclesiastical claims of the Roman Catholic Church are a huge sticking point in the relations of Orthodox and Roman Catholics (especially Eastern Orthodox; we Oriental Orthodox had "exited stage right" several hundred years before the claims of Rome in this area began to be a problem to the rest of Christianity), and the Mormon religion is like Roman Catholicism on steroids, ecclesiologically-speaking.

    I know that Mormons will protest this by saying "But we don't have a Pope! You guys (meaning me in particular, since I'm Coptic) have a Pope! We don't even have paid clergy!", blahblahblah. This is one of those things that I guess they would think would end the discussion, but as Roman Catholics will be happy to tell you (and actually, as one of them here on CF reminded me just yesterday), ecclesiologically speaking, they are not so arrogant as to say that those outside of visible union with their Pope cannot be saved. But what do the Mormons say about everyone outside of the Mormon religion? They say that 'God' told their 'prophet' that all of our Creeds are abominable, and the churches we belong to are all wrong (remember, as the LDS here often tell us, there are but two churches in the world -- that of God, and that of the Devil), and so on and so forth. Mormonism is closer to the popular depiction of the medieval Roman Church (which it didn't get for no reason) than they probably realize.
     
  3. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Do you expect me not to respond to this post, and talk about your church and its position in Christendom? You are the one that brought it up. So I am just asking if I can respond before I do. I do not want you to silence me for poking my head into what you have said here. It is interesting and you know I have a response. What do you think?
     
  4. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    That is right, that is a phrase we like to say.

    Come unto Christ. We do not modify the phrase by saying things like: our Jesus is a little different than your Jesus. There is only 1 Jesus and we do think of him a little different than mainline Christianity. But we do teach right up front that for us, God the Father and Jesus Christ, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are 3 separate and distinct personages. So they get a feel for our doctrine in the beginning.

    For a young girl, as I suspect you were, it could be fairly overwhelming, so I understand, to a certain extent what you went through. Wish it could have been different.
     
  5. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    (New Testament | John 4:34 - 37)

    34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
    35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
    36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
    37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.

    (New Testament | Matthew 25:20 - 26)

    20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
    21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
    23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
    25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
    26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

    (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 18:13 - 16)

    13 And how great is his joy in the soul that repenteth!
    14 Wherefore, you are called to cry repentance unto this people.
    15 And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!
    16 And now, if your joy will be great with one soul that you have brought unto me into the kingdom of my Father, how great will be your joy if you should bring many souls unto me!

    God does want everyone to bring to Him the lost sheep!
     
  6. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    No, because Mormons have put gaining converts more important than being truthful, because you don't tell people that all along you have truly believed that Trinitarians are deceived by the teachings of men (other than Joseph Smith). So you want to convert people who have already come to Christ or are seeking Him!

    “And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit” (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pg.269).

    “It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (Bernard P. Brockbank, “The Living Christ,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1977, p. 26).

    HOW DID YOUR CHRIST GAIN SALVATION?

    “Christ worked out his own salvation by worshiping the Father. After the Firstborn of the Father, while yet a spirit being, had gained power and intelligence that made him like unto God; after he had become, under the Father, the Creator of worlds without number; after he had reigned on the throne of eternal power as the Lord Omnipotent-after all this he yet had to gain a mortal and then an immortal body” (Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie, 1966, p. 61).



    “As a church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say” (Gordon Hinckley, “We look to Christ,” Ensign (Conference Edition), May 2002, p. 90).


    Please explain to me what could be overwhelming.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  7. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    [QUOTE="He is the way, post: 74051331, member: 408936]
    God does want everyone to bring to Him the lost sheep![/QUOTE]

    The trouble with this is that Mormons don't know the True God or Gospel and can't identify the True Shepherd from a stranger or a lost sheep from one who is seeking the True Shepherd. I'm glad that God leads His sheep.

    "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate," saith the Lord.
     
  8. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    The trouble with this is that Mormons don't know the True God or Gospel and can't identify the True Shepherd from a stranger or a lost sheep from one who is seeking the True Shepherd. I'm glad that God leads His sheep.

    "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate," saith the Lord. [/QUOTE]
    Only those who keep the commandments know the true God:

    (New Testament | 1 John 2:1 - 6)

    1 MY little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    (New Testament | Matthew 5:17 - 20)

    17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    You say you love the commandments, but are you teaching and preaching keeping the commandments?
     
  9. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    "He is the way" says, "Only those who keep the commandments know the true God:"

    Oh, how many Mormons obey the True God?

    “Christ worked out his own salvation by worshiping the Father. After the Firstborn of the Father, while yet a spirit being, had gained power and intelligence that made him like unto God; after he had become, under the Father, the Creator of worlds without number; after he had reigned on the throne of eternal power as the Lord Omnipotent-after all this he yet had to gain a mortal and then an immortal body.”
    Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie, 1966, p. 61
     
  10. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I think it'd be a pretty silly idea that shows you don't read very carefully, Peter, since the point is that you are less likely to attract Orthodox believers due to your even stronger eccelsiology than that of the RCC, which Orthodox already don't like/don't agree with, so it'd be pretty funny to find any Orthodox who convert to Mormonism. Not going to say it's impossible or anything, just pretty dang unlikely given that Mormonism exhibits and even more absolutist ecclesiastical outlook than the RCC itself does, and hence is an even bigger turn-off in this area.

    Now notice how I could write that entire paragraph just now ^ without once appealing to my particular Church? If you have something to say, I'd suggest you try mirroring that, because anything that brings up how I'm Coptic, and the Coptic Orthodox Church XYZ or whatever is just going to be irrelevant and stupid. (As I already mentioned in the other post, though not in so many words.)

    Don't argue in a way that is irrelevant and stupid, Peter. For the sake of the thread and the board.

    @Phoebe Ann: Were Bruce R. McConkie's sermons and writings on the topic of "Christ working out his own salvation" :sick: ever been censured/recalled/disavowed by the LDS, or is this teaching still "on the books", so to speak? I honestly don't see how a leader of this religion can say or write such things while the Mormons attempt to tell us that they worship the same God as Christians do. It is absolute madness.

    I'd like to hear from one of you Mormons, if you still believe this, how it is that the One Who was incarnate, crucified, died, and risen again for our salvation somehow has His own salvation to work out...? That makes zero sense. If Christ is God -- and He is -- then how the heck does He need salvation? From what? Why?

    And they claim that the comparison between them and the Arians is somehow inapt! :doh:
     
  11. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    I agree with you.

    One of the MOST shocking teachings I've run across in that religion!

    Mormonism and Arianism: a nontrinitarian Christological doctrine which asserts the belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who was begotten by God the Father at a point in time, a creature distinct from the Father and is therefore subordinate to him, but the Son is also God....
     
  12. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    The Prophet Joseph Smith said:
    “...It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth”
    (Teachings, pp. 345-346 italics in original)
    Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 152
    (Bold mine)

    Also in the same page:
    Our Father Advanced and Progressed Until He Became God
     
  13. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Mormonism is closer to the popular depiction of the First-century church. Our organization is quite close to the First-century church that the apostles set up, than to the medieval Roman Church.


    The OO people and the RC people may continue to scoff at The Church of Jesus Chrsit, but there will come a time that the Book of Mormon will be an even more viable religious book, that will be such a good witness of Jesus Christ and such a good companion to the Bible that it will compel people to think twice that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that he died for the sins of all mankind, etc.

    It may be the very book that cracks the armour of the muslim nations, because here is a second book that is of an ancient origin from ancient prophets that testify that Jesus is the Christ even though they lived 10,000 miles away from Jerusalem on the other side of the world, with no communications
    between them.

    The testimony of JS will just grow louder as the years go on, and we will continue to get the world ready for the second coming of Christ. We are not concerned with the OO converting in force at this time, so do not get worried, yet.
     
  14. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    God's son did, and Jesus did nothing except what he saw his Father do, so it is not such a wide leap of faith to know that the Father did also.
     
  15. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Mormons consider all non-Mormons lost sheep.
     
  16. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    God's Only Begotten Son did not get saved ---He was God before the world was created! He was ALWAYS God.The true GOD was always God!
     
  17. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    This is one of those things that you just say because you believe it, without presenting any evidence. Please present some evidence that anyone in early Christianity taught this insanity about Christ "working out His own salvation" like your leader Bruce R. McConkie claimed was the case.

    Please present any evidence that anyone in early Christianity taught about the council of the gods, the pre-existence, or any other uniquely Mormon teaching.

    Please present evidence if you are going to claim something about the early Church. We have some of their writings (e.g., Ignatius, Polycarp, etc.), so we know they don't say that.

    I don't believe in the medieval Roman Church to begin with, but even I have to ask how you know this to be so. Again, what are you basing this on beyond your desire that it be so?

    :|

    Yeah, because the Bible doesn't do that by itself...? :scratch::doh:

    Hahahahahahahaha. You can't be serious. The Arab pagan proto-BOM, the Qur'an (and even more so the various collections of hadith) says many horrible things about Christian belief for our "taking Jesus as God" besides Allah, but you expect a book from a religion that openly preaches polytheism to be the one that "cracks the armour of the muslim nations"?

    That's naive at best, suicidal at worst. Do yourself a favor, Peter, and never go to the Middle East or North Africa. Again: :doh:

    No. Objectively speaking, there's a book that Joseph Smith either made up, or he and his friends made up, or he/they cribbed from various preexisting resources and mixed together with some fanciful stuff from their imaginations, that Mormons such as yourself believe "is of ancient origin from ancient prophets" and so on. Nobody else believes that, and not only can it not be shown to be so, insofar as it is testable (given that we don't have access to the "Golden Plates", because the angel Moroni hasn't flown over from his home in the Comoros to tell us to go get them), it is shown to be a 19th century piece of Bible fan-fiction, and nothing more.

    How that's supposed to convince Muslims in particular of anything is not known. Care to explain that? Muslims already endorsed their preferred piece of trashy, sub-literate Bible fan-fiction back when Uthman codified their Qur'an, many centuries before Joseph Smith was even born.

    Peter, the day I get worried about Mormons converting Orthodox people is the day that Joseph Smith returns in his glory to judge the living and the dead. :rolleyes:
     
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  18. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    You consider us lost sheep. We are striving to LOVE Jesus Christ by keeping His commandments.
     
  19. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    (New Testament | 1 John 2:4)

    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    Jesus Christ kept the commandments. He said:
    (New Testament | John 16:33)

    33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
     
  20. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    So you criticize the Book of Mormon. I will give you six months to write a book of scripture of equal length (273,725 words 258,198 of them original and not from the Bible or any other text). If you can't do it you have no right to your criticism of the Book of Mormon.
     
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