• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Combating false accusation.

Discussion in 'Requests for Christian Advice' started by Carl Emerson, Sep 14, 2021.

  1. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

    +6,095
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Hi there,

    There are two areas in my personality that over the years have evaded His redemptive touch.

    Firstly I react badly to false accusation unlike Jesus who could ignore it, I challenge it with some passion.

    Second area is reaction to pain - this often is an angry response.

    So I feel light years away from the example of Jesus and would like to hear from mature believers who have conquered these weaknesses.

    Repeated confession does not cut it for me... I want to be more like Him.
     
    • Prayers Prayers x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

    +7,908
    Non-Denom
    Single
    US-Republican
    Well, there's two ways to challenge false accusations. There's the worldly way, and the Christ-like way.

    One of the better examples of the worldly way, which we are to avoid, is former President Trump. He reacted with loud insults and slander of his own on multiple occasions. I'm not going to get into which of those occasions specifically here because I don't want this to be derailed into politics, but I think most reasonable Christians will agree that he 1) was accused of both true things and false things, and 2) he reacted the same way to both, in a non-Christian manner. Don't react like Trump.

    The Christ-like way to react to false accusation isn't necessarily ignoring it. Look at Luke 11:14-23, Matthew 11:19, John 8:48-49. Jesus was under full control of himself in his reactions, and in them he did not sin, and he chose those reactions because they were wise in the situations he was in. But he didn't ignore them.

    My reactions to pain are not the ultimate best, but I have improved in that I believe I am better now than I used to be at not letting that pain drive lies about God and lies about people. I think that was a product of repeated conviction about falling on the wrong side of that.
     
  3. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,204
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Confession can be good >

    "Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." (James 5:16)

    So, God our Father does use us to help one another to be "healed" in our character, I have learned . . . "healed" of whatever makes us able to give in to different sin problems. And this healing changes us more into the likeness of Jesus as the result of this, I would say. And yes we have power with God to so minister this to one another > every child of God has the ability to minister His own grace > 1 Peter 4:9-10. And a basic effect of God in His grace can be to change our character to be more like Jesus.

    So, just confessing in order to be forgiven is not enough, as I think you mean by what
    So, yes to this.

    But, Carl, after you got me lured into getting so interested in commenting . . . then was when
    OH-h-h . . . you would say this after I got interested in sharing about this. In my case, maybe we could say maturing :)

    In my case, there are times when I feel I have been misrepresented, not ministerially accepted, and/or rejected. And I can get in quite a huff.

    But doesn't Jesus say to rejoice when we are bad-mouthed for His sake??

    Um . . . er-r-r . . . ah . . . so, even if the people are saying what is wrong, this does not mean I am not wrong . . . somehow, myself . . . if I'm not rejoicing like Jesus says to do. And in case I am not reacting well to criticism, this could be because though I might be doing something that can be good, I am maybe not really doing it for Jesus. And He could have me doing something else . . . or doing it better, including with "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30).

    So-o-o-o - - - - if they are getting to my ego . . . my ego needs to go-o-o - - - - -

    If anyone can get our goat,
    we need to get that goat
    . . . . o-u-t of us,
    so nobody can get it!!
    And get the Lamb of God
    in there, instead.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
  4. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +6,973
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    When pain is constant and unending, you can adjust to it and just exist with the pain simply being part of you...

    But sudden sharp pain is different, in that it comes unexpectedly rather than a way of life your adjusting to.

    Either way, anger is just an emotional response to pain - it's you seeking a path to rise above the pain.

    When I first contracted my disease I was angry, because anger was actually a place of strength for me, where I felt a little stronger to deal with all I was facing, which I couldn't in fact deal with at all.. it's a falsehood for sure (that anger is a place of strength) but it's a reaction of the flesh, probably humans failsafe response actually.

    Therefore, if you find yourself being angry in response to pain, remind yourself that it's strength your seeking and that you can't find it in anger. Then take a moment and hand it over to Christ... and consciously allow His strength and His peace to flow through you.

    As Jesus said "rebuke the devil and he will flee from you", that's a guarantee. If you keep rebuking anger in the flesh it will stop being your failsafe response. The more you hand this area over to Christ the more Christ's strength and peace will become your new failsafe response to pain, which is what we are seeking as Christians who are growing in our Christian walk - new failsafe responses to various things, making Christlike responses our center.

    I'll let others address your other concerns - although you may find this thought process will help you in other areas of life as well... :)

    God bless you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
  5. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +6,973
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    As a follow up to my post, I would direct you to a self-help book that really helped me in many ways.

    It's called "Willpower:Rediscovering the Greatest Human Strength" by John Tierney and Roy Baumeister

    I'm not really big on self help books, but I read this once and found it extremely helpful. You can pick it up used for like 4 dollars, so it's not a costly affair.

    You'll learn more about your own willpower as a whole, which is a gift God gave all of us, and learn various things about it that can make you more successful at overcoming various challenges.

    When you couple the helpfulness of this book with faith, you'll be an unstoppable Christian. :)
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • List
  6. SANTOSO

    SANTOSO Well-Known Member

    +812
    Indonesia
    Christian
    Married
    Beloved one,
    I would not consider Jesus Christ our Lord ignored false accusations.

    This is the counsel we heard :
    “who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously;”
    ‭‭I Peter‬ ‭2:23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    So apostle Peter considered that we should commit ourselves to Christ who judges righteously when we have to endure hostility like false accusations from sinners just like Christ who committed Himself to the Father who judges righteously.

    Another counsel that apostle Peter said:
    “And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?

    But even if you should suffer for righteousness’ sake, you are blessed. “And do not be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.”
    But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

    having a good conscience, that when they DEFAME you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed.

    For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.”
    ‭‭I Peter‬ ‭3:13-17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    Beloved one, when you were defamed ; you were falsely accused. So apostle Peter told us when we were falsely accused, we need to consider whether we were suffering for what is wrong or for what is right. If we suffer for what is right, we suffer for righteousness’ sake; so we should count it as our blessing.

    But are we to challenge the false accusations with passion ? This is what we have heard from apostle Paul:

    “Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

    Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ
    .

    For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

    But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

    For each one shall bear his own load.”
    ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:1-5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    So beloved one, when man made false accusations at us, man have trespassed us or offended us or wronged us. We should consider that man have been overtaken in trespass. So that man was not himself and didn’t know what he said and done. Didn’t apostle Paul said before he repented, that he made many false accusations ? This is what we have heard apostle Paul said to us:

    I thank Him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because He judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, -1 Timothy 1:12
    though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, -1 Timothy 1:13
    and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. -1 Timothy 1:14

    So beloved one, when we were falsely accused, we suffered for righteousness’ sake — we ought to bear with all the disagreements that our accusers falsely charge us. We need to humble ourselves before God, that He may give us His strength to bear all things in Christ, that we have heard:

    Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. -1 Corinthians 13:7

    Our Lord Jesus Christ who is love, bears all things including false accusations. So only through His love or His grace that He strengthen us to bear all things. For we heard:

    You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, -2 Timothy 2:1

    So beloved one, our Lord’s love strengthen us, then we can bear false accusations like Him, and further strengthen us to restore false accusers in a spirit of gentleness.

    Why at times we react with anger rather than response in a spirit of gentleness? This is what we have heard:

    For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;

    and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

    Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,

    that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.”
    ‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭5:14-19‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    So beloved one, we reacted in anger to those who false accused us because we regard anyone according to the flesh. When we regard noone according to the flesh, when we regard everyone according to the Spirit, we responded to those who falsely accused us in a spirit of gentleness.

    they who falsely accused us did sin against us but our Lord has bore that trespasses on the cross so our Lord do not impute their trespasses but we as ambassador of Christ implored them to be reconciled with God in a spirit of gentleness. But if they refused our appeals, they refused to believe Christ who sent us. We gave place to wrath to God who judges justly.

    But also should consider this, that we have heard:
    We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves. -Romans 15:1
    Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. -Romans 15:2
    For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, "The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me." -Romans 15:3
    For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. -Romans 15:4

    If the false accusers who are fellow believers in Christ, we have this obligation to bear the failings of the weak. I consider as bearing the failing of the weak is that the weak fails to do what is right. So we should look up what was written in former days for our instructions and held fast to those instructions that is faith and love that is in Christ Jesus to give us endurance
    and be encouraged in the faith, that we may hope.

    So beloved one, it is utmost importance that we abide in Christ’s love by keeping the Lord’s commandments to love God and love one another through the love of Christ. Without we abiding in the love of Christ, we are unable to strengthen to bear all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. This is what we abide in the love of Christ, that we heard:

    Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. -2 Timothy 1:13
    By the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you. -
    2 Timothy 1:14

    So when we at all moments followed the pattern of the sound words that we have heard from Christ, His holy apostles and holy prophets in the Holy Scripture—we abide in the faith and love that is in Christ Jesus. When we held fast to that good things —that the Lord, His holy apostles and prophets committed to us by the Holy Spirit who dwell in us — we will be strengthen by the Lord’s grace to bear all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things in union with Christ.

    Beloved one, we overcome our weaknesses of anger and weaknesses when we were in pain through His Holy Spirit who helps us. How? We come humbly to Holy Spirit that He may give us the grace or steadfast love of God the Father and the Son that strengthen us. That is why we heard:

    “And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.”
    ‭‭II Corinthians‬ ‭12:9‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    When we were falsely accused, when we can’t bear it, we went to find our Lord our place of refuge to cry to him in our weaknesses or infirmities, trust not our strength but His strength that enable us to speak and lead us rightly for the sake of His name, that His name be glorified. So our boast in our infirmities, that our Lord continually gives us the strength to bear the failings of the weak, to bear with all disagreements that they may have against us and believe that the power of His word rest upon us, and enables us to stand strong in His steadfast love. That despite all things, we didn’t hate or despise our accusers, as our Lord have hidden us:

    ““Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost. “What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:10-12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    Yes, we didn’t despite or hate those who falsely accused us, for they are one of these little ones who were lost and go astray, that our Lord said but love them with the love of Christ, lead them gently to the paths of righteousness for the sake of our Lord’s name, and that they may be saved.

    So beloved, finally stand strong in the Lord—that means be strengthen in the faith and love that is in Christ Jesus, that you may stand. In this manner, we stand against opposition or those who falsely accused us.

    To God be all glory and praise. May God’s grace and peace be multiplied to you. Amen
     
  7. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

    +1,917
    Christian
    Married
    As with anything related to faith, acknowledgment of a need a change, and a will to do it, are the beginning of change.

    As we push against our weaknesses, we slowly overcome them or at least reduce the severity of them.

    Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

    It is only the Holy Spirit that can empower change in us in those areas that we seem to have no power.

    Psa 37:5 Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.
     
  8. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

    +3,801
    Canada
    Baptist
    Married
    Well, I don't know if God views me as a "mature believer," but I sometimes do a good impression of one.

    I think part of enduring false accusations equitably is trusting God with your reputation, trusting that He will preserve it - or not - as He sees fit. Divine vindication of ourselves is promised, whether in eternity or before, so its not necessary to become overwrought at the accusations of those around you. In His perfect time, God will reveal the truth about you - good AND bad.

    Our failings, I think, can help us keep ourselves, our desire to be seen in a good light, in balance. Even if others have it wrong about our motives, or thinking, or behaviour, we do sometimes really stink in how we are. For me, this tempers my indignation at being falsely accused.

    Presently, I am held in a pretty dim view by some of the leadership at my church. There isn't outright antagonism, overt enmity, from my fellow leaders (I'm an Elder), but they sure don't like me calling out their spiritual passivity, compromise, and confusion. I have been very frank about how superficial and awry the teaching at the church is, and how this is in no small part reflective of a state-of-affairs spiritually in the leadership. I've been, I think, gracious, patient, and extremely scriptural in my criticisms, but I've also been very direct. And so, I'm not much liked among my fellow Elders, which is clear in how they speak about me publicly to one another (while I'm right there listening, sometimes) and dismissive and mocking in response to my criticisms. I'm "interesting," "unusual," but never have they shown me to be in error biblically.

    I could make their passive-aggressive unpleasantness all about me, I suppose, but, really, I'm merely God's ambassador to them and, like many of His agents, being derided and dismissed - and much worse - is pretty common. I'm also constrained by 2 Timothy 2:24-26. My "job," then, is to speak the truth and to honor God with my life; it's solely God's domain to cause people to acknowledge His truth and live by it. And so, when fellow believers get snarky and derisive, insinuating I have evil motives and false beliefs, I don't get in a flap, straining to defend myself. I just submit myself to God's control, and trust Him to be my Ultimate Vindicator when He sees fit.

    Now, this doesn't mean I'm passive in the face of criticism and antagonism, offering no rationale or biblical defense of myself or my beliefs. Not at all. But my goal is not to defend myself, to protect my reputation, but to preserve God's truth and His people from error, which helps alleviate a sense of personal affront when I'm maligned that would provoke me to go overboard, becoming angry and nastily self-justifying. The wrath of man doesn't work the righteousness of God, right? (James 1:20)

    At bottom, self-justification ends up, many times, being about pride. And pride is just a symptom of Self in control. The only useful answer to this situation is to submit oneself to God, to His will and way, and remain so throughout each day. As we are, God's Spirit works to transform us, enabling us to live "dead to sin but alive unto God". (Romans 6:1-22)

    About getting angry when in pain, well, I would suggest extra-strength Tylenol. Seriously, though, as in all things, giving God control, yielding to Him in the midst of pain, is always the best way to go.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
  9. Jesus is my Superhero

    Jesus is my Superhero Zealot

    916
    +841
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    I believe it's part of the human condition to be maligned or slandered. Before my conversion I slandered and was slandered nearly continuously. Violence was always just below the surface. As a Christian there is always hope that such a sin as this will be far from us, but sadly, often, this is not the way.

    Some verses come to mind:

    Matt. 5:10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,

    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.11Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets before you.

    Heb. 12:4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
     
  10. BeyondET

    BeyondET Well-Known Member Supporter

    +263
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Luke 23:34
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
  11. SANTOSO

    SANTOSO Well-Known Member

    +812
    Indonesia
    Christian
    Married
    Beloved one, when we were falsely accused or prosecuted, we also need to consider what apostle Paul have said:

    “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

    But, as he who was born according to the flesh then PERSECUTED him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

    Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”

    So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.”
    ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:28-31‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    So beloved ones, when we were falsely accused or persecuted, let us held fast who we are — we as brethren as children of promise as Isaac was.

    Let us perceive and understand that there are still those who were born according to the flesh who will persecute us who were born according to the Spirit; let us perceive and understand even so it is now as what apostle Paul said.

    For we are children of the free, we are children of the Jerusalem above. Let us hold us fast to the covenant above.

    Let us trust our Lord Jesus Christ mediates us. For we heard:

    "As for you, my flock, thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and male goats. -Ezekiel 34:17
    Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the rest of your pasture; and to drink of clear water, that you must muddy the rest of the water with your feet? -Ezekiel 34:18
    And must my sheep eat what you have trodden with your feet, and drink what you have muddied with your feet? -Ezekiel 34:19

    "Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD to them: Behold, I, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. -Ezekiel 34:20
    Because you push with side and shoulder, and thrust at all the weak with your horns, till you have scattered them abroad, -Ezekiel 34:21
    I will rescue my flock; they shall no longer be a prey. And I will judge between sheep and sheep. -Ezekiel 34:22
    And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd. -Ezekiel 34:23
    And I, the LORD, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them. I am the LORD; I have spoken. -Ezekiel 34:24

    Yes, our Lord Jesus Christ, the son of David, shall shepherd us.
    For we also heard:

    Moses spoke to the LORD, saying,
    "Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation who shall go out before them and come in before them, who shall lead them out and bring them in, that the congregation of the LORD may not be as sheep that have no shepherd." -Numbers 27:15-17

    Yes, the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man who is Christ Jesus our Lord over the congregation who shall go out before us and come in before us, who shall lead us out and bring us in, that the congregation of the LORD may not be as sheep that have no shepherd.

    Beloved ones, let us trust whom God has appointed a man who is Christ Jesus our Shepherd. Let us behold that our Shepherd, who also the judge of the living and dead, who will also judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and male goats.

    So when we were falsely accused, let us commit ourselves to Christ our Shepherd who judge righteously.

    To God be all glory. Amen
     
  12. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

    +6,095
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Thanks for the responses -

    I am mindful that at one point in my journey I saw the great chasm between my righteousness and His, basically the depth of darkness in my heart was enormous. Covered by His blood - yes - but still depthless.

    So it was clear that there was lightyears of difference between what holiness to which I might attain and the purity of Jesus.

    Yet we want to be like Him and this desire is given and motivated by His love.

    So He puts His finger on some issues and has a plan for us to be adequately prepared to honour Him in what we face in His purpose in His name.

    Pauls words come to mind... "I dont even judge myself but wait till the Lord comes who will both reveal the motives of hearts - then each mans praise will come from God" (my paraphrase)

    So I am caught between my own lack of righteousness and His overarching grace - open to conviction but not fishing within myself for matters that to me seem pressing (like Pauls messenger from Satan) that are not yet on His redemptive agenda.

    In all this I have His peace - knowing I am accepted through His work on the Cross and offering my open heart for His examination.

    So I am confident that He has matters in hand and will reveal what I need to know either directly or via the Body of which you are a part.
     
  13. mama2one

    mama2one Well-Known Member

    +8,742
    United States
    Christian
    Married

    maybe before & after getting angry, try to calm yourself with deep breathing


    close fist & hold up thumb
    breathe in slowly to count of 4
    then blow out "candle" to count of 4
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
  14. SANTOSO

    SANTOSO Well-Known Member

    +812
    Indonesia
    Christian
    Married
    Beloved one,
    I believe you misperceived your journey where you said to us,”I am mindful that at one point in my journey I saw the great chasm between my righteousness and His, basically the depth of darkness in my heart was enormous. Covered by His blood - yes - but still depthless.”

    I perceived you are tact and humble when you have said above. But I considered you misperceive your condition. If you were under your own righteousness, you were under the law. For we heard:

    and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith' -Philippians 3:9

    Beloved one, if you were already covered by the blood of Christ, you were already under grace. You were made right not because of your own works. For we heard:

    who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, -2 Timothy 1:9

    So the one who made you think in your mind about your own righteousness is not the wisdom of God. Just bear with me, brethen.


    For this is the counsel that we heard :
    1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.-Romans 10:1-4

    Beloved one, consider apostle whose desire and prayer to God that the Jews be saved.
    For apostle Paul bore witness that there are those who have zeal for God but not according to the knowledge of truth in Christ Jesus. They were those who were ignorant of God’s righteousness and seek to establish their own righteousness and have not submitted to God’s righteousness.

    But you, beloved one, on the other hand, already believe that you were already covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. What you need is just to continuously submit to God’s righteousness that comes through faith in Christ Jesus. For Christ is the end of the law or self righteousness for everyone who believe.

    So I perceived beloved one, that your thoughts just drift away.

    This is also what we have heard:
    “Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away.”
    ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    But why we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard ? This is what we have heard:

    “Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,”
    ‭‭Titus‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    Beloved one, we obtained godliness by acknowledging the truth with more earnest heed that we heard, so that the Holy Spirit empowered us with our godliness with divine power. By acknowledging the truth daily, we held fast to the pattern of sound words that we heard from holy apostles and Christ — we will not drift away from God’s righteousness and Savior Jesus Christ.

    For we heard our beloved Heavenly Father said:
    My son, keep your father's commandment, and forsake not your mother's teaching. -Proverbs 6:20
    Bind them on your heart always; tie them around your neck. -Proverbs 6:21
    When you walk, they will lead you; when you lie down, they will watch over you; and when you awake, they will talk with you. -Proverbs 6:22

    Beloved one, who is our father through the gospel ; this is what we have heard:
    “For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
    ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. -1 Corinthians 4:15

    Then who is our mother ? This is what we have heard:
    But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. -Galatians 4:26
    How we perceive this ? This is what we have heard:
    Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. -Galatians 4:24

    So beloved one, we keep our father’s commandment, who is Christ. And we don’t forsake our mother’s teaching, that is, we don’t forsake the covenant of Christ’s teachings. So the Christ’s commandment and teachings are what we should bind our hearts always; When we walk, they will lead us; when we lie down, they will watch over us; and when we awake, they will talk with us.

    The next verse we heard:
    For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life, -Proverbs 6:23

    So beloved one, we already received the commandment of Christ, so His word guide our feet. And you, I, and other brethren already have the teachings of Christ, that light guide our paths.

    Beloved one, what I am trying to say so that you may perceive. When you said,”basically the depth of darkness in my heart was enormous,” — you have not perceived that you have the teachings of Christ in your heart, which light your heart. For we heard:

    For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. -2 Corinthians 4:6

    When God said that let light shine out of darkness — that is a commandment, the lamp. Beloved one, where is this darkness that He spoke — is it not in our hearts? It is but how light has shone in our hearts?— that is when we received Christ’s teachings. For Christ’s teachings or gospel is the light of the knowledge of the glory of God.

    True, we do heard:
    “And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.”
    ‭‭John‬ ‭1:5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    Did that mean that our hearts did not comprehend the light or the teachings of Christ?

    What heart did not comprehend the teachings of Christ ? Were they not the hearts of stone? So the hearts of flesh that Holy Spirit gave us, that hearts do comprehend the teachings of Christ. How we can be sure that our hearts have the teachings of Christ? This is what we have heard:

    3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

    4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. -2 Corinthians 3:3-6

    So beloved one, Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency ( of God’s righteousness) is from God.

    So beloved one, when you said,”So I am caught between my own lack of righteousness and His overarching grace - open to conviction but not fishing within myself for matters that to me seem pressing (like Pauls messenger from Satan) that are not yet on His redemptive agenda.”

    Beloved one, you perceived lack of God’s righteousness because you have not considered your hearts already written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of your heart; you have not built not enough trust you have through Christ toward God; you have not considered yourself that God made you sufficient of His righteousness as minister of the new covenant of the Spirit.

    So beloved one, there is no chasm for you to cross ; Christ has done that for us already. Beloved one, don’t be deceived by the adversary. We just need to submit ourselves to God’s righteousness daily. When we acknowledge who Christ said who we are in Him, not our hearts and or minds say who we are— we will not be deceived.
    For this is what we have heard:

    for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
    -1 John 3:20 ESV

    So whenever our hearts condemn us, beloved one, trust that God is greater than our hearts and He knows everything so just submit ourselves to God who said who we are in Christ, that is written in the gospel, He will lead us aright. Since heart and mind closely knitted, trust God that He is able to guide both our minds and hearts aright.

    How we should perceive ourselves then? This is what I paraphrase from Romans 6:16-23:

    Romans 6:16
    I offer myself to God to obey Him as slaves,
    I am slave to God to obedience, which leads to righteousness.

    Romans 6:17
    But thanks be to God that,
    I wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which I am entrusted.

    Romans 6:18
    I have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

    Romans 6:19
    so now I offer ( parts of my body) in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.

    Romans 6:20
    When I am slaves to righteousness ,
    I am free from the control of sin.

    Romans 6:22
    But now that I have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God,
    the benefit ( fruit of righteousness ) I reap leads to holiness,
    and the result is eternal life.

    Romans 6:23
    the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Amen

    Beloved one, cross check what I paraphrased Romans 6:16-23, whether they match what apostle Paul intended to say to us.
    This is what the gospel apostle Paul preached to us that we should hold onto as apostle Paul said to Timothy:

    “For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

    Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.

    That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.
    ‭‭II Timothy‬ ‭1:12-14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    So beloved one, when we keep acknowledging the truth of the gospel, we believed and persuaded that He is able to keep what we have committed to Him until that Day.

    What we have committed to Him are faith and love that we speak and act on that accords with His words. That good things we kept by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. Thus, we won’t drift away to our own righteousness but we are constantly made sufficient of God’s righteousness that is from God.
    May God’s grace and peace be multiplied to you. To God be all glory and thanksgiving. Amen
     
  15. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

    +3,801
    Canada
    Baptist
    Married
    Yup. Amen.

    The "plan to be adequately prepared to honor Him" begins, I believe, with constant surrender to Him as the Lord God Almighty that He is. How can I move forward into deep, rich fellowship with God when I am not dealing with Him as God, as my Ruler, Lord, and King? I tried - for decades, in fact - to do just this, to be in relationship with God as my Father but not as my Ruler. I was very keen to have His joy, His peace, His power, His love, but there were many things in the World I wanted, too. I didn't want God to interrupt my commerce with the World, to open the doors of the rooms of my life I wanted to keep under my control that were full of the things of the World.

    Of course, I wanted bits and pieces of the World because Self - because I - was in control, not God. Until this changed, until I yielded myself wholesale to my Maker's will and way, I remained stumbling and straining in my walk with Him, constantly trying to push myself down, to make myself better, succeeding in the short term, but failing again and again in the long term - sometimes quite spectacularly. Only when I began to do what His word told me to do (Romans 6:13; Romans 8:14; Romans 12:1; James 4:7; 1 Peter 5:6), all throughout each day yielding myself to His control, waiting in faith upon His Spirit to move me more and more into a holy, Christ-centered life (2 Corinthians 3:18; Ephesians 3:16; Romans 8:13; Galatians 5:22-23, etc.), have I experienced freedom from the sorts of selfish, worldly things that bound me tightly, even as God's child.

    The Holy Spirit works in us, I'm seeing now, like "the tide that raises all boats." When the Spirit is manufacturing our transformation, he doesn't do so piecemeal, fixing one thing here in my life and another one later on over there, but instead produces a wholesale, across-the-board conformation of my life to himself, to Christ. This is how I distinguish my efforts of self-transformation from his. I tend to magnify those traits within myself that are easiest to magnify, often ignoring those fruit of the Spirit that don't mesh with my natural disposition. I pat myself on the back for the great changes I've produced in these easier areas, obscuring lack of growth in the more difficult ones in the process.

    The Spirit isn't confined as I am by my personality and preferences. When he transforms me, I change even in the areas that I would naturally neglect. As I've pointed out, He does this, though, as I remain in the lower place before him, submitted, dependent and by faith trusting he is working in me, even if I don't recognize that he is.

    Amen. Our acceptance by God is never contingent upon our performance. Christ is our Justifier, our Redeemer, our Saviour, the One Mediator between God and Man, not we ourselves.

    He won't, though, force you to change, Carl. He acts to change you only as you open your life in daily surrender to Him. This is what it means to walk in love with God, willingly choosing His way, His control, all throughout each day.

    Joshua 24:14-15
    14 “Now therefore fear the LORD and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.
    15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve...


    Romans 12:1
    1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  16. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

    +6,095
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Maybe my choice of words was not the best...

    I meant nothing more than what Paul expressed in Romans 7

    21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully agree with the law of God in the inner person, 23 but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, the law which is in my body’s parts. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

    To put some context on it I was in deep repentance before being Baptised in the Spirit.

    I didn't mean this thread to become a theological bun fight but rather comment from those who have wrestled with similar challenges and prevailed.
     
  17. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

    +6,095
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    I find He puts His finger on specific issues that need to yield to His touch as well as generally increasing my overall sanctification.
     
  18. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

    +3,801
    Canada
    Baptist
    Married
    I've gotta ask: What do you mean by a "bun fight"? I have in my mind an image of two angry bakers hurling baked goods at each other. Am I on the right track? Your description above made me chuckle.
     
  19. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

    +3,801
    Canada
    Baptist
    Married
    My wife has suggested your "bun fight" wasn't a NZ colloquialism, but just a typo. She's right, isn't she? You meant to type gun fight, not bun fight. Ah, well. The thought of a theological bun fight, of, say, John Calvin throwing the kaiser roll of determinism at Armenius who hurled back the cinnamon bun of free will, made my wife and I laugh loudly together. So, thanks for the typo!
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
  20. SANTOSO

    SANTOSO Well-Known Member

    +812
    Indonesia
    Christian
    Married
    Beloved one, as one who have experienced the same sufferings as you have, I shared forth with you words of God that delivered me. That is why I quoted many verses that you may see how I applied in my life. Beloved one, consider again what I have written before, and you will see that I am truly on your side, not fighting against you but to build you up. I always considered to speak less and let the words of God speak more to His people so that the Lord be magnified.

    Beloved one, would you consider David, the son of Jeese, king of Israel as one who have faced similar challenges like you and prevailed?

    This is what we have heard:
    “For innumerable evils have surrounded me; My iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not able to look up; They are more than the hairs of my head; Therefore my heart fails me. Be pleased, O Lord, to deliver me; O Lord, make haste to help me!”
    ‭‭Psalms‬ ‭40:12-13‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    Would you say this verse similar to what you were going through and intend to say when you said :

    “I am mindful that at one point in my journey I saw the great chasm between my righteousness and His, basically the depth of darkness in my heart was enormous. Covered by His blood - yes - but still depthless.

    So it was clear that there was lightyears of difference between what holiness to which I might attain and the purity of Jesus.

    Yet we want to be like Him and this desire is given and motivated by His love.

    So He puts His finger on some issues and has a plan for us to be adequately prepared to honour Him in what we face in His purpose in His name.”

    Beloved one, what David considered before he said before Psalms 40:12-13?

    “Do not withhold Your tender mercies from me, O Lord; Let Your lovingkindness and Your truth continually preserve me.”
    ‭‭Psalms‬ ‭40:11‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    Beloved one, the answer David provided for us when we suffered when innumerable evil surrounded us or when we perceived darkness surround our hearts, that the Lord’s loving kindness and truth preserve us.

    Beloved one, how we hear of His loving kindness and truth ? Are not His loving kindness and truth in His words?

    For this is what we have heard:
    “You who are named the house of Jacob:
    “Is the Spirit of the Lord restricted?
    Are these His doings?
    Do not My words do good
    To him who walks uprightly?”

    ‭‭Micah‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    Beloved one, seek the presence of the Lord — seek the presence of the Spirit of God in His words. In the presence of His Spirit, there are loving kindness and truth. When our hearts and minds are filled with His words, when our hearts and minds are filled with the presence of His Spirit, when our hearts and minds are filled with the Lord’s loving kindness and truth — His love protects our hearts and minds from all evil or darkness. And His truth set us free from our own self righteousness and self love or the law of sin and death.

    Is it not Roman 8, came after Roman 7? This is what we have heard:

    “For those who identify with their old nature set their minds on the things of the old nature, but those who identify with the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. Having one’s mind controlled by the old nature is death, but having one’s mind controlled by the Spirit is life and shalom.
    ‭‭Romans (Rom)‬ ‭8:5-6‬ ‭CJB‬‬

    Beloved one, let your mind be ruled by the Spirit of God, that is life and shalom. And you will find the life you are looking for and the shalom that you are looking for.

    To God be thanksgiving through Christ Jesus. Amen.
     
Loading...