Column: The rotten science behind Trump’s chloroquine obsession

[redleghunter]

No, they most certainly are not. Some both practice medicine and conduct research, and some institutions have a heavier-than-normal focus on research so their staff tend to skew that way, but there is nothing inherent in practicing medicine that qualifies it as science. A doctor is much more analogous to an engineer or even a technician in some cases or specialties.

It is called medical science.

 

[redleghunter]

...and some people might die because they treated a virus with the wrong drug.
tulc(which is why Presidents shouldn't use press briefings to tout drugs they don't understand)

But that has not happened and who is best to advise a patient on treatment regimens for COVID? Yes that doctor treating the patient. The drug has been around since 1954 and the known side effects are minimal. And once again who would know a patient’s condition better and whether the drug would put them at further risk? Again the doctor.

Doctors are prescribing the meds and getting results. All Trump did was help provide doctors the ability to prescribe the drug and provide ample supply through FEMA and other avenues.

The stuff I’m seeing on TV is ridiculous calling hydroxychloroquine and the Zpack combo “dangerous” can “kill people!” They are both proven drugs and both come in generic labels.

Whenever we trained near the DMZ in Korea we took two weeks regular dosage of hydroxychloroquine. The only side effects among my troops were some had a rash and one guy his skin yellowed a bit and his dosage was reduced.

Doctors are using these drugs and people are getting better. The ones who died in the French small study were patients already on a respirator. The ones who needed oxygen but not a ventilator all got significantly better. Same is happening here as well.

There is only one reason there is resistance. Trump likes it. And the media will always go the other way. Which has caused some governors to forbid the drug allowing people to die. And now they are all asking for the drugs.

 

[iluvatar5150]

It is called medical science.

No, it isn’t. You’re just wrong. A doctor practicing medicine is no more a scientist than an engineer building a bridge. It’s not that there’s never any overlap between those jobs or that nobody does both, but by and large, they are not the same thing at all.

 

[redleghunter]

No, it isn’t. You’re just wrong. A doctor practicing medicine is no more a scientist than an engineer building a bridge. It’s not that there’s never any overlap between those jobs or that nobody does both, but by and large, they are not the same thing at all.

So biology is not a science?

 

[iluvatar5150]

So biology is not a science?

You don’t even know what science is, do you?

Of course Biology is a science, but that doesn’t mean doctors are conducting science just because they use knowledge of biology in their work. Again, they’re typically more analogous to an engineer who applies scientific principles developed by others.

 

[redleghunter]

You don’t even know what science is, do you?

Of course Biology is a science, but that doesn’t mean doctors are conducting science just because they use knowledge of biology in their work. Again, they’re typically more analogous to an engineer who applies scientific principles developed by others.

Talk about straining the gnat. Lol.

It is medical science and last I checked they had their own schools.

In order for a Doctor in Medical Science to actually be a doctor they must earn a PhD in what? Medical science. This includes being involved in medical studies and publishing study findings.

Do you know what a medical student who fails medical school is called? A Dentist.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Talk about straining the gnat. Lol.

It is medical science and last I checked they had their own schools.

In order for a Doctor in Medical Science to actually be a doctor they must earn a PhD in what? Medical science. This includes being involved in medical studies and publishing study findings.

Holy cow, no. Literally everything you said in there is wrong.

A “Doctor of Medical Science” or DMSc is a professional degree for PA’s.
Doctor of Medical Science | Rocky Mountain University

An MD or a DO (i.e. what we typically think of as “a doctor”) is a professional degree for medical doctors or doctors of otheopathic medicine.

A PhD is a research degree and is typically what’s held by what we think of as “scientists”.

Doctor of Medicine - Wikipedia
Even though the M.D. is a professional degree and not a research doctorate (i.e., a Ph.D.), many holders of the M.D. degree conduct clinical and basic scientific research and publish in peer-reviewed journals during training and after graduation; an academic physician whose work emphasizes basic research is called a physician-scientist. Combined medical and research training is offered through programs granting an MD-PhD. The National Institutes of Health (NIH), through its Medical Scientist Training Program, funds M.D.-Ph.D. training programs at many universities. Some M.D.s choose a research career and receive funding from the NIH as well as other sources such as the Howard Hughes Medical Institute.[46] The United States Department of Education and the National Science Foundation do not include the M.D. or other professional doctorates among the degrees that are equivalent to research doctorates.[47][48]

 

[Richard T]

If you want to talk science, then all you need to do is ask yourself, is a single case study scientific? A good scientist will know this answer. The case study: should it be dismissed as anecdotal and valueless, or be retained as a time-honored method of bedside teaching? See also https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1304/1304.1186.pdf One might consider Tulc's posts as an example. A quick glance shows he is opposed to Trump. It is not a scientific observation, but I think it is pretty safe to generalize those conclusions. Or consider how many believe that Smoot Hawley tariffs contributed to the Great Depression. IT WAS A SINGLE CASE. What good researchers desire is anything that is better than chance. Chloriquine, I believe has that. There are few side effects for taking it, and even if it gives only a slight advantage, it is preferred over nothing. Cloriquine is one of the best options available right now, along with plasma from recovered victims and some of the other anti-virals out there. Doctors obviously like Chloriquine too as many are reported that they are hoarding it for themselves and their families.

 

[redleghunter]

Holy cow, no. Literally everything you said in there is wrong.

A “Doctor of Medical Science” or DMSc is a professional degree for PA’s.
Doctor of Medical Science | Rocky Mountain University

An MD or a DO (i.e. what we typically think of as “a doctor”) is a professional degree for medical doctors or doctors of otheopathic medicine.

A PhD is a research degree and is typically what’s held by what we think of as “scientists”.

Actually an MD is a PhD. That is why they are called doctors.
There are nurses who have PhDs in nursing. There are philosophers and theologians with PhDs.

You are creating a false dichotomy. A doctor of medicine is a scientist. In order to enter medical school you must have previous education and testing in Biology, Chemical biology, and Physics. Some go to practice and some to research. All have to do a residency in each specific area to include research. All medical students before getting their doctorate in medicine must do three years of residency where they get experience in all medical fields including research.

 

[Richard T]

The problem with M.D.'s versus most Ph.D.'s is that the former does not require that much quantitative analysis or courses in research methods. Furthermore, an MD does not need to produce any original research. There is no dissertation. Some M.D.'s that do complete research and write journal articles have these skills, but they are an exception to the field. Peter Navarro, (A Trump economist) has great skills in being able to read and interpret data. I would argue that economics as a field is perhaps the most rigorous in math at the graduate level. If you doubt this, take a look at their journals.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Actually an MD is a PhD. That is why they are called doctors.

No, it isn’t. They’re different degrees.

There are nurses who have PhDs in nursing. There are philosophers and theologians with PhDs.

So what?

You are creating a false dichotomy.

No, I’m not. You just have no idea what you’re talking about.

A doctor of medicine is a scientist.

Not necessarily, no.

In order to enter medical school you must have previous education and testing in Biology, Chemical biology, and Physics. Some go to practice and some to research. All have to do a residency in each specific area to include research. All medical students before getting their doctorate in medicine must do three years of residency where they get experience in all medical fields including research.

Again, so what? I had to do most of that, including lab work, in order to get a BS in Computer Science. That doesn’t mean I worked as a scientist or that any of my subsequent work as a software developer constituted “science”.

 

[Need answers]

When other politicians use a daily press briefing to push a drug they don't know will do what they claim then we can talk about them, until then how about we concentrate on the one guy that is doing that?
tulc(just a thought)

The FDA has the responsibility to ensure safety and effectiveness for drugs. Trump's hope is irrelevant, doctors dont listen to Trump because he's is not a doctor...

 

[redleghunter]

No, it isn’t. They’re different degrees.



So what?



No, I’m not. You just have no idea what you’re talking about.



Not necessarily, no.



Again, so what? I had to do most of that, including lab work, in order to get a BS in Computer Science. That doesn’t mean I worked as a scientist or that any of my subsequent work as a software developer constituted “science”.

Once again establishing the false dichotomy. Or perhaps it’s an unnecessary dichotomy.

 

[Need answers]

.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Once again establishing the false dichotomy. Or perhaps it’s an unnecessary dichotomy.

Go find somebody with an MD or a PhD and ask them if they’re the same degree.

Also, you’re not even using the term “false dichotomy” correctly.
False dilemma - Wikipedia

 

[Need answers]

Go find somebody with an MD or a PhD and ask them if they’re the same degree.

Also, you’re not even using the term “false dichotomy” correctly.
False dilemma - Wikipedia

I feel like a lab rat when i'm talking to my doctor about medication. If i had Covid-19 with the worst symptoms, i would gladly try chloroquine.

 

[alan650]

Why does it matter?

Why does it matter?? Trump has obsessively been mentioning this drug at every conference and pushing it hardcore. You don't find a problem with your president advertising a drug that he has financial stake in?

 

[cow451]

I feel like a lab rat when i'm talking to my doctor about medication. If i had Covid-19 with the worst symptoms, i would gladly try chloroquine.

Why wait? Why not go for it now?

 

[alan650]

Yes. The liberals oppose it because Trump advocates it.

If Trump opposed it, the liberals would advocate it.

I really can't understand what it takes to be so blindly and completely devoted to a man. No wonder people call Trump fanatics cult members! They literally can't handle any form of criticism made towards Trump. Heck, they can watch live footage of him being a fool and they still hold dear everything he says! It's disturbing. Everything he does is perfect and he walks side by side next to Jesus Christ.

 

[mindlight]

But that has not happened and who is best to advise a patient on treatment regimens for COVID? Yes that doctor treating the patient. The drug has been around since 1954 and the known side effects are minimal. And once again who would know a patient’s condition better and whether the drug would put them at further risk? Again the doctor.

Doctors are prescribing the meds and getting results. All Trump did was help provide doctors the ability to prescribe the drug and provide ample supply through FEMA and other avenues.

The stuff I’m seeing on TV is ridiculous calling hydroxychloroquine and the Zpack combo “dangerous” can “kill people!” They are both proven drugs and both come in generic labels.

Whenever we trained near the DMZ in Korea we took two weeks regular dosage of hydroxychloroquine. The only side effects among my troops were some had a rash and one guy his skin yellowed a bit and his dosage was reduced.

Doctors are using these drugs and people are getting better. The ones who died in the French small study were patients already on a respirator. The ones who needed oxygen but not a ventilator all got significantly better. Same is happening here as well.

There is only one reason there is resistance. Trump likes it. And the media will always go the other way. Which has caused some governors to forbid the drug allowing people to die. And now they are all asking for the drugs.

Not being American the whole Trump hating agenda seems quite self serving for Democrats. I doubt if his investments are a factor in drug selection and I suspect his businesses need government money to sustain them right now since hospitality is a major casualty of this Pandemic.

That said the use of any drug in the treatment of covid-19 is speculative as none are proven to make much difference. 95% people survive infection so you will find more examples of success than failure whatever drug you use. But the key factor in survival is a strong immune system and the presence of ventilators for the serious sick. The rest is only evidence of an unhealthy vulnerability to Big Pharma marketing and control on the medical system. The unproven drugs are mainly irrelevant and could sometimes be harmful.