Columbus Day or Indigenous Peoples' Day

grafted branch

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Indigenous 1. Occurring or living naturally in a particular area or environment; native. 2. Intrinsic; innate.

Native 1. Existing in or belonging to one by nature; innate 2. Being such by birth or origin 3. Being one’s own because of the place or circumstances of one’s birth: our native land.

Native Americans are widely considered to be the tribes that were present before Columbus set foot on America. However based on the definition of “native” any person born in America could be considered a native.

Columbus could be considered the person who made it possible for immigration to America, due to his discovery of America. Once these immigrants from Europe took hold many atrocities took place.

Currently there is much debate about USA’s border along the Mexico side. Many of my acquaintances that are for a more open border policy also suggest that we shouldn’t be celebrating Columbus Day. My question is should we celebrate Columbus Day which led to immigration into the USA, or should we celebrate Indigenous Peoples’ Day and mourn all the problems immigration brings?
 

A_Thinker

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Columbus could be considered the person who made it possible for immigration to America, due to his discovery of America. Once these immigrants from Europe took hold many atrocities took place.

...

My question is should we celebrate Columbus Day which led to immigration into the USA, or should we celebrate Indigenous Peoples’ Day and mourn all the problems immigration brings?
Why not celebrate both ?

This recognizes the truth inherent on both sides (the good and the bad).

In any case, it is how we got to where we are today ... a part of a multi-cultural society which is quite unique in the world.

As such, we represent as a example of humanity's ability to integrate and combines our cultures for the greater good, ... but it came/comes at great sacrifice and expense.

And the work is not yet over.
 
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Silverback

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Native 1. Existing in or belonging to one by nature; innate 2. Being such by birth or origin 3. Being one’s own because of the place or circumstances of one’s birth: our native land.

Native Americans are widely considered to be the tribes that were present before Columbus set foot on America. However based on the definition of “native” any person born in America could be considered a native.

Columbus could be considered the person who made it possible for immigration to America, due to his discovery of America. Once these immigrants from Europe took hold many atrocities took place.

Currently there is much debate about U
Indigenous 1. Occurring or living naturally in a particular area or environment; native. 2. Intrinsic; innate.

Native 1. Existing in or belonging to one by nature; innate 2. Being such by birth or origin 3. Being one’s own because of the place or circumstances of one’s birth: our native land.

Native Americans are widely considered to be the tribes that were present before Columbus set foot on America. However based on the definition of “native” any person born in America could be considered a native.

Columbus could be considered the person who made it possible for immigration to America, due to his discovery of America. Once these immigrants from Europe took hold many atrocities took place.

Currently there is much debate about USA’s border along the Mexico side. Many of my acquaintances that are for a more open border policy also suggest that we shouldn’t be celebrating Columbus Day. My question is should we celebrate Columbus Day which led to immigration into the USA, or should we celebrate Indigenous Peoples’ Day and mourn all the problems immigration brings?

Good question

You do know that Columbus never set foot in any land that would later become the United States. That honor belongs to Ponce De Leon in 1513.

The Vikings settled on the east coast of Canada, it is debated if they made it as far south as the today United States.

There were Atrocities committed against the indigenous peoples, not only by Europeans, but by other tribes as well.

There were Atrocities committed by indigenous peoples, not only toward Europeans, but to other tribes as well.

Within 100 - 150 years after Columbus landed in Hispaniola, 85 - 90% of all Native Americans, North and South, were dead from disease. Deaths attributed to warfare, and atrocities were miniscule in number compared to deaths from disease. That however does not excuse what happened, but it is what it is.

The Spanish established St Augustine in 1565, the English established Jamestown in 1607. There were earlier attempts at colonization that failed for a variety of reasons.

Hernando De Soto, landed on the gulf coast of Florida, just South of Tampa Bay in 1539. His exposition was a disaster for the Native American Populations in what would become the United States. His expedition traveled through what would become the States of Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and probably Arkansas.

The diseases that were brought by members of his expedition, and the swine that escaped along the way so decimated local populations that by the time St. Augustine, and later Jamestown were established most Native Americans in the East of the Mississippi River were long dead.

Desoto Landed with 600 men, most of them died as well. There was some fighting, that caused casualties on both sides, but those 600 Men did not slaughter the Native American Populations with crossbows, lances, and matchlock firearms, they killed some, and were themselves killed, but it was disease brought by members of the expedition, and their escaped swine that did the real killing.

Personally, I don't have a feeling one way, or, another about Columbus day, except I did like the day off each year. If the Government wants to rename it, that's fine, or keep it as is, that's fine also.

But it was disease...not warfare that killed 99.9% of Native Americans.

And this was not limited to the Americas either, Europeans did the same thing in New Zealand with the Maori, and in Australia, the Europeans tried to deliberately exterminate the Aboriginal people. As late as 1970's Canada, Native American children were still being forcibly removed from their parents for "Re-Education" some never saw home again, and don't get me started on British treatment of the Irish, Scotts, and Welsh.

Is you go back in history, everyone was invaded, everyone was enslaved at some point, and we still kill each other over petty greed, and envy. We never (all people's everywhere) never take responsibility for the things they have done, and we teach all our sins to our children.

What does this mean...I don't care about Columbus Day, one way, or another. Don't forget though, that the Europeans brought the gospel with them, and that's as good as it gets.
 
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grafted branch

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Native 1. Existing in or belonging to one by nature; innate 2. Being such by birth or origin 3. Being one’s own because of the place or circumstances of one’s birth: our native land.

Native Americans are widely considered to be the tribes that were present before Columbus set foot on America. However based on the definition of “native” any person born in America could be considered a native.

Columbus could be considered the person who made it possible for immigration to America, due to his discovery of America. Once these immigrants from Europe took hold many atrocities took place.

Currently there is much debate about U


Good question

You do know that Columbus never set foot in any land that would later become the United States. That honor belongs to Ponce De Leon in 1513.

The Vikings settled on the east coast of Canada, it is debated if they made it as far south as the today United States.

There were Atrocities committed against the indigenous peoples, not only by Europeans, but by other tribes as well.

There were Atrocities committed by indigenous peoples, not only toward Europeans, but to other tribes as well.

Within 100 - 150 years after Columbus landed in Hispaniola, 85 - 90% of all Native Americans, North and South, were dead from disease. Deaths attributed to warfare, and atrocities were miniscule in number compared to deaths from disease. That however does not excuse what happened, but it is what it is.

The Spanish established St Augustine in 1565, the English established Jamestown in 1607. There were earlier attempts at colonization that failed for a variety of reasons.

Hernando De Soto, landed on the gulf coast of Florida, just South of Tampa Bay in 1539. His exposition was a disaster for the Native American Populations in what would become the United States. His expedition traveled through what would become the States of Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and probably Arkansas.

The diseases that were brought by members of his expedition, and the swine that escaped along the way so decimated local populations that by the time St. Augustine, and later Jamestown were established most Native Americans in the East of the Mississippi River were long dead.

Desoto Landed with 600 men, most of them died as well. There was some fighting, that caused casualties on both sides, but those 600 Men did not slaughter the Native American Populations with crossbows, lances, and matchlock firearms, they killed some, and were themselves killed, but it was disease brought by members of the expedition, and their escaped swine that did the real killing.

Personally, I don't have a feeling one way, or, another about Columbus day, except I did like the day off each year. If the Government wants to rename it, that's fine, or keep it as is, that's fine also.

But it was disease...not warfare that killed 99.9% of Native Americans.

And this was not limited to the Americas either, Europeans did the same thing in New Zealand with the Maori, and in Australia, the Europeans tried to deliberately exterminate the Aboriginal people. As late as 1970's Canada, Native American children were still being forcibly removed from their parents for "Re-Education" some never saw home again, and don't get me started on British treatment of the Irish, Scotts, and Welsh.

Is you go back in history, everyone was invaded, everyone was enslaved at some point, and we still kill each other over petty greed, and envy. We never (all people's everywhere) never take responsibility for the things they have done, and we teach all our sins to our children.

What does this mean...I don't care about Columbus Day, one way, or another. Don't forget though, that the Europeans brought the gospel with them, and that's as good as it gets.

Thanks for the informative post, my wife is part Native American and she gets upset every year when she sees on the news the same people who want open borders for America also trying to somehow show support for Native Americans by changing Columbus Day. She would just rather not celebrate anything, and I am also of that persuasions. I just wanted to find out what others thought about this topic. Thanks for all those who have posted.
 
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Silverback

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Thanks for the informative post, my wife is part Native American and she gets upset every year when she sees on the news the same people who want open borders for America also trying to somehow show support for Native Americans by changing Columbus Day. She would just rather not celebrate anything, and I am also of that persuasions. I just wanted to find out what others thought about this topic. Thanks for all those who have posted.

I agree...I still would like the day off
 
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Rubiks

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For all intents and purposes, Columbus discovered the New World. Commemorating that monumental event in world history seems worth a day.

..he was beaten by the Vikings and some east Asians hundreds/thousands of years earlier.
 
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grasping the after wind

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For all intents and purposes, Columbus discovered the New World. Commemorating that monumental event in world history seems worth a day.

No he didn't. You cannot discover something millions of people already are quite well aware of but you personally do not recognize. Columbus denied discovering any New World and insisted he had found the shortcut to India.
 
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grasping the after wind

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..he was beaten by the Vikings and some east Asians hundreds/thousands of years earlier.

And those earlier inhabitants that preceded those east Asians who may well have received the exact same treatment from those east Asians as the west Europeans subsequently treated those transplanted east Asians . And the same story can be told just about everywhere as one group of new comers moves in and replaces those that were there and becomes the indigenous people who later are replaced by another group of new comers who then become the indigenous people replaced by the next group of new comers. Columbus just happened to be the first western European to find a good route to the Americas during a time when the western Europeans had enough time, talent, fire power and financial resources to take advantage of the situation.
 
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No he didn't. You cannot discover something millions of people already are quite well aware of but you personally do not recognize. Columbus denied discovering any New World and insisted he had found the shortcut to India.

Columbus discovered America for the people where he lived. Sure, the indiginous people here already knew America existed, but those on the other side of the world didn't. At the same time, the Native Americans didn't know about places on the other side of the world either. If they had set out on a voyage to someplace like Spain, and then came back and told the people in their tribe about it, then they would be celebrated as having discovered Spain for their people.
 
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..he was beaten by the Vikings and some east Asians hundreds/thousands of years earlier.
That's why I said "for all intents and purposes." Perhaps you were reading fast and simply passed over that part.

History is not a pile of inconsequential events. It is the events that affect developments that matter the most--by far.

If it is true that half of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were wearing wigs at the time, that may be interesting but not much more. When Columbus discovered the New World, the whole world changed. Not so with St. Brendan whom some people think got here first, or some Chinese explorers who are forgotten to history, or even the Vikings who apparently were here briefly but gave it up and whose presence here was not noticed by the rest of civilization in the West.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Columbus discovered America for the people where he lived. Sure, the indiginous people here already knew America existed, but those on the other side of the world didn't. At the same time, the Native Americans didn't know about places on the other side of the world either. If they had set out on a voyage to someplace like Spain, and then came back and told the people in their tribe about it, then they would be celebrated as having discovered Spain for their people.

On what day do the Spanish celebrate the indigenous person who discovered Spain? Or the Islamic person that discovered Spain or the Roman that discovered it or the Celtic tribal leader that discovered it or the Neanderthal that did? If being the first leader of an expedition of one's tribe to find( discover is really a misnomer) a place is worth a day in your name, then they all deserve one. One time I thought I was trying to get to Kansas City and I am positive I was in Kansas City but I later was told I only got as far as St. Louis. I don't believe that but for some reason St Louis has never acknowledged being discovered by me by naming a day after me? I don't see why one needs to believe they discovered a thing in order to actually have discovered it.
 
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On what day do the Spanish celebrate the indigenous person who discovered Spain? Or the Islamic person that discovered Spain or the Roman that discovered it or the Celtic tribal leader that discovered it or the Neanderthal that did? If being the first leader of an expedition of one's tribe to find( discover is really a misnomer) a place is worth a day in your name, then they all deserve one. One time I thought I was trying to get to Kansas City and I am positive I was in Kansas City but I later was told I only got as far as St. Louis. I don't believe that but for some reason St Louis has never acknowledged being discovered by me by naming a day after me? I don't see why one needs to believe they discovered a thing in order to actually have discovered it.

It's simply a commemoration of an event that led to the eventual founding of our country. Thanksgiving has its roots in that too. The strange things is that there are so many people who take offense to it, but would have no issue to someone else, such as Martin Luther King having a day named after them.

To be fair though, there seems to be way too many "names" on days and even months that starts to make it all rather meaningless. Tornado awareness month, fire safety awareness month, etc. So even months have names. Most go unnoticed until they're mentioned on the news.
 
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On what day do the Spanish celebrate the indigenous person who discovered Spain? Or the Islamic person that discovered Spain or the Roman that discovered it or the Celtic tribal leader that discovered it or the Neanderthal that did?

Are they known? If not, you cannot very well honor them with a day on the calendar or a festival or anything of that sort.
 
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It's simply a commemoration of an event that led to the eventual founding of our country. Thanksgiving has its roots in that too. The strange things is that there are so many people who take offense to it, but would have no issue to someone else, such as Martin Luther King having a day named after them.

To be fair though, there seems to be way too many "names" on days and even months that starts to make it all rather meaningless. Tornado awareness month, fire safety awareness month, etc. So even months have names. Most go unnoticed until they're mentioned on the news.

I certainly agree with there being too many days and months commemorating things. I blame that on the Catholic Church making every day some saint's special day. I doubt the saints in question get a party or something in heaven because it is their day. There are so many events that led to the founding to the US that were so much more important to that founding of the United States than Columbus' incompetence in finding a passage to India that I cannot find it in me to take Columbus Day seriously as a commemoration of one of the important ones. A European finding the Americas was inevitable given the technology of the 15th century. Columbus only got here a bit earlier than someone else would have and maybe the next one that would have arrived might have had the sense or lack of stubbornness to understand where he was not.
 
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grasping the after wind

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Are they known? If not, you cannot very well honor them with a day on the calendar or a festival or anything of that sort.

And do you think if they were known they would get their day from the Spanish government?
 
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I certainly agree with there being too many days and months commemorating things. I blame that on the Catholic Church making every day some saint's special day. I doubt the saints in question get a party or something in heaven because it is their day. There are so many events that led to the founding to the US that were so much more important to that founding of the United States than Columbus' incompetence in finding a passage to India that I cannot find it in me to take Columbus Day seriously as a commemoration of one of the important ones. A European finding the Americas was inevitable given the technology of the 15th century. Columbus only got here a bit earlier than someone else would have and maybe the next one that would have arrived might have had the sense or lack of stubbornness to understand where he was not.

That's like saying Neil Armstrong shouldn't be recognized as the first man who stepped foot on the moon because the technology of the time made it inevitable that someone would eventually do it. Besides, he didn't build the rocket that got him there anyway.
 
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Today is thanksgiving day in Canada:

How Canadian Thanksgiving Began
The origins of Canadian Thanksgiving are more closely connected to the traditions of Europe than of the United States. Long before Europeans settled in North America, festivals of thanks and celebrations of harvest took place in Europe in the month of October. The very first Thanksgiving celebration in North America took place in 1578 in Canada when Martin Frobisher, an explorer from England. in search of the Northwest Passage. He wanted to give thanks for his safe arrival to the New World. That means the first Thanksgiving in Canada was celebrated 43 years before the pilgrims landed in Plymouth, Massachusetts!


For a few hundred years, Thanksgiving was celebrated in either late October or early November, before it was declared a national holiday in 1879. It was then, that November 6th was set aside as the official Thanksgiving holiday. But then on January 31st, 1957, Canadian Parliament announced that on the second Monday in October, Thanksgiving would be "a day of general thanksgiving to almighty God for the bountiful harvest with which Canada has been blessed." Thanksgiving was moved to the second Monday in October because after the World Wars, Remembrance Day (November 11th) and Thanksgiving kept falling in the same week. This year Canadian Thanksgiving is October 14th, 2019!


Another reason for Canadian Thanksgiving arriving earlier than its American counterpart is that Canada is geographically further north than the United States, causing the Canadian harvest season to arrive earlier than the American harvest season. And since Thanksgiving for Canadians is more about giving thanks for the harvest season than the arrival of pilgrims, it makes sense to celebrate the holiday in October. So what are the differences between Canadian and American Thanksgiving, other than the date? Not much! Both Canadians and Americans celebrate Thanksgiving with parades, family gatherings, pumpkin pie and a whole lot of turkey!
 
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That's like saying Neil Armstrong shouldn't be recognized as the first man who stepped foot on the moon because the technology of the time made it inevitable that someone would eventually do it. Besides, he didn't build the rocket that got him there anyway.

No it is not like that though it is a little similar. Neil Armstrong actually was the first man to set foot on the moon. Columbus was just the first guy from his part of the world that came to a place people already had set foot on. But I do agree that Armstrong stepping foot on the moon was not his accomplishment alone and more of a lucky break on his part for being chosen among several others equally as qualified who could have done the job just as efficiently and perhaps with less of a melodramatic line. And of course he never claimed to have discovered the moon. In that he was indeed like Columbus who never claimed to have discovered the new world. .
 
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