Colossians 1: Preexistence or Preeminence?

[gadar perets]

I'm sorry but useing the technical name Yeshua is confusing me. You're saying Jesus is what ....?

Yeshua is not a technical name. It is the name given to him from his Father through an angel.

tstor gave a good reply above of what I was saying.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

From The Bible, no other book, we are told that Adam was the first man. Genesis speaks to creation "and God said"...by THE WORD spoke by GOD. That Adam was from the earth/dirt realm. Didn't come down from Heaven. He was made in the image of God, but was not God. God breathed His spirit into that Adam through his nostrils, and he became a living being. He did not contain the SEED of God. We know from scripture that The Word of God is also the SEED of God. The first Adam was created by but NOT born of God.

The first Adam became a living being, the last Adam became a life giving spirit. The last Adam is the first born of the NEW CREATION. A man born with/by the SEED/Word of God. Not created, but born. The Word of God has always been with God...in Jesus, it came into the flesh...came down from heaven and implanted in Mary by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 15:45-49

The first Adam, after the fall, did not love God, but served self. All that God had made for the first creation, the beauty of Eden was closed off to that Adam. He was weak to do any thing to be reconciled back to what was before the fall in the garden. God came up with a new and better plan to have a people that would truly love HIM with all their heart, mind, body and strength. That could only be achieved by the New and Better Way, through Jesus the Christ. Christ is not Jesus surname, but means anointed.

Because Jesus was born by the action of the Spirit of God - God's Word that has always existed, always been with God was not spoken into being like the first Adam, but implanted into a human, Mary, as John Chapter 1 clearly states. This firstborn of the NEW Creation - "and in Him was no guile", unlike the first Adam.

When Jesus the Christ was crucified as the spotless lamb of God and placed in the grave, the Spirit of God raised his body from the grave. He walked around on earth for 40 more days after being resurrected. The Apostles and many others saw him. He invited them to even touch HIM to see that he was still in a body of flesh. It was this New Creation that was taken up to heaven and seated at the right hand of the Father. The Word of God in the flesh. Born of incorruptible seed.

First is the natural man (first Adam with fallen nature) and then the spiritual Adam...Scripture tells us we must be born again by receiving the seed/word of God. Jesus was the first fruits of many brethren Romans 8:29 We are born like the first Adam, but by receiving The Word of God (all the things Jesus spoke), the seed of The Word, implanted in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, we become a New Creation...though the flesh we were born with is the vessel, it is the Spirit alive within (the same spirit that rose Jesus Christ from the grave, that makes us sons/daughters of The Father in Heaven.

Many scriptures tell us that the first born of the new creation came down from heaven, then ascended again. We have the same offer available to us, if we accept Jesus as King and obey HIM (the Word of God who came in the flesh). The Old Testament was not sufficient to change a person on the inward parts...powerless to impart The Word of God in the heart to transform from the fallen Adam nature...though God spoke even then, it could not truly penetrate until Jesus died and was raised again on the third day.

So, could it not be said - the Father, The Word, and the Holy Spirit are ONE? Jesus son of God, the first born of the new creation was truly The Word of God...

 

[gadar perets]

So, could it not be said - the Father, The Word, and the Holy Spirit are ONE? Jesus son of God, the first born of the new creation was truly The Word of God...

Yes, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are one, but not co-equal and/or co-eternal. Yeshua (Jesus) became "the Word". He was not always the word. The logos/word was made flesh when the Father spoke the Son into existence. The Son was created/made when he was conceived in Miriam's (Mary's) womb.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

Yes, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit are one, but not co-equal and/or co-eternal. Yeshua (Jesus) became "the Word". He was not always the word. The logos/word was made flesh when the Father spoke the Son into existence. The Son was created/made when he was conceived in Miriam's (Mary's) womb.

"He was not always the word." So, he was something else prior to being the word?

And the word became flesh. The Father, the son, and the Holy Spirit are one.

John 14:9 Yeshua replied to him, “Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? (CJB)

John 17:20 “I pray not only for these, but also for those who will trust in me because of their word, 21 that they may all be one. Just as you, Father, are united with me and I with you, I pray that they may be united with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 The glory which you have given to me, I have given to them; so that they may be one, just as we are one — 23 I united with them and you with me, so that they may be completely one, and the world thus realize that you sent me, and that you have loved them just as you have loved me. (CJB)

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.

3 All things came to be through him,
and without him nothing made had being.

4 In him was life,
and the life was the light of mankind. (CJB)

John 1:9 This was the true light,
which gives light to everyone entering the world.

10 He was in the world — the world came to be through him —
yet the world did not know him. (CJB)
Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.

 

[klutedavid]

Do you limit that interpretation to just this passage? As in do you believe that Jesus was begotten in the womb and not preexistent at all (other than in the foreknowledge and foreordination of the Father)?

Hello Tstor.

The name Jesus referred to the child born in Bethlehem to Mary.

Before the incarnation, Jesus was the Word, the Word was God.

People in the Old Testament said they saw God.

These people in the Old Testament saw the Word (YHWH).

 

[tstor]

Hello Tstor.

The name Jesus referred to the child born in Bethlehem to Mary.

Before the incarnation, Jesus was the Word, the Word was God.

People in the Old Testament said they saw God.

These people in the Old Testament saw the Word (YHWH).

Yes, I am familiar with this as I am a trinitarian. However, I am trying to understand the Socinian perspective. I gather that they believe the word existed with God prior to the incarnation. They simply reject that it was a person prior to the incarnation.

 

[gadar perets]

"He was not always the word." So, he was something else prior to being the word?

Non-existent, except in the mind/plan of YHWH (the Father).

John 14:9 Yeshua replied to him, “Have I been with you so long without your knowing me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? (CJB)

Philip was not literally seeing the Father. He was seeing His express image and character in His Son Yeshua. No man can look upon the Father and live and no man has ever seen the Father.

John 17:20 “I pray not only for these, but also for those who will trust in me because of their word, 21 that they may all be one. Just as you, Father, are united with me and I with you, I pray that they may be united with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 The glory which you have given to me, I have given to them; so that they may be one, just as we are one — 23 I united with them and you with me, so that they may be completely one, and the world thus realize that you sent me, and that you have loved them just as you have loved me. (CJB)

That is a oneness of purpose, goals, etc., not a oneness of being. It is the kind of oneness Yeshua wants in us (highlighted in red).

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.

3 All things came to be through him,
and without him nothing made had being.

4 In him was life,
and the life was the light of mankind. (CJB)

See tstor's new thread about John 1:1.

John 1:9 This was the true light,
which gives light to everyone entering the world.

10 He was in the world — the world came to be through him —
yet the world did not know him. (CJB)
Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.

Exactly. The world was made "through him", not "by him" as other versions read. Yeshua was the reason the world was created. YHWH needed to create a stage for the "lamb slain before the foundation of the world" to live, die and live again.

 

[gadar perets]

People in the Old Testament said they saw God.

These people in the Old Testament saw the Word (YHWH).

They saw the Angel of YHWH or other angels, but not YHWH. YHWH is Yeshua's Father (Psalm 2). No man has even seen Him.

 

[klutedavid]

They saw the Angel of YHWH or other angels, but not YHWH. YHWH is Yeshua's Father (Psalm 2). No man has even seen Him.

Hello Gadar.

The Hebrew does not say, 'Angel', the Hebrew states they saw a messenger (i.e., one sent). No one has seen the Father, no one has heard the Father, and no one knows the Father.

YHWH in the Old Testament was the creator, we were created through the Word and for the Word. The Word was the creator, YHWH was the creator, therefore the Word is YHWH.

People in the Old Testament saw YHWH, but no one has seen the Father!

 

[klutedavid]

Yes, I am familiar with this as I am a trinitarian. However, I am trying to understand the Socinian perspective. I gather that they believe the word existed with God prior to the incarnation. They simply reject that it was a person prior to the incarnation.

Hello Tstor.

Then I have no issue with you, the word shared the glory with the Father before the creation.

 

[gadar perets]

The Hebrew does not say, 'Angel', the Hebrew states they saw a messenger (i.e., one sent). No one has seen the Father, no one has heard the Father, and no one knows the Father.

Messengers from heaven are angels.

Yes, no one has seen the Father. Who is the Father?

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.​

The Father of Yeshua is YHWH. Yeshua is the Son of YHWH, not YHWH Himself.

YHWH in the Old Testament was the creator, we were created through the Word and for the Word. The Word was the creator, YHWH was the creator, therefore the Word is YHWH.

The Word was NOT the Creator. Everything was created through the word/logos which was made flesh. A thing became a person. There is only one Creator, Father YHWH and He spoke everything into existence through and for His Son.

Revelation 4 & 5 prove the Son is not the Creator.

Revelation 4:10,11 reads, "The four and twenty elders fall down before Him that sat on the throne [YHWH], and worship Him that lives for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O [YHWH], to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

Then, Revelation 5:6-7 says, "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of [YHWH] sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."

Notice that the Lamb, Yeshua, takes the book from YHWH who sits on the throne. We just saw, in Revelation 4:10-11, that the one who sits on the throne is the Creator. Therefore, the one who takes the book from the Creator cannot also be the Creator.

People in the Old Testament saw YHWH, but no one has seen the Father!

No one saw YHWH with their eyes. Some saw Him in a vision. Moses only saw His fleeting glory.

Do you believe the Son is the Father?

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Gadar Perets.

Thanks for your reply.

Messengers from heaven are angels.

Jesus was not an angel, Jesus was sent by the Father.

Joshua 5:13-15 (RSV)
Once when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing before him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went to him and said to him, ‘Are you one of us, or one of our adversaries?’ He replied, ‘Neither; but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.’ And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and he said to him, ‘What do you command your servant, my Lord?’ The commander of the army of the Lord said to Joshua, ‘Remove the sandals from your feet, for the place where you stand is holy.’

This man was not an angel, why do you say, 'messengers are angels'?

Yes, no one has seen the Father. Who is the Father?

No one has any idea who the Father is, only by looking at the Son can you see the Father.

​

The Word becomes the Son, that is the begetting of the Son by the Father. The Word is coequal with the Father.

The Word was NOT the Creator.

The Word was the creator of all things.

1 Colossians
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him.

You will bow down to Jesus, everyone will honor the Son as they honor the Father.

Everything was created through the word/logos which was made flesh. A thing became a person. There is only one Creator, Father YHWH and He spoke everything into existence through and for His Son.

The Word has always existed, the Word was God.

Revelation 4 & 5 prove the Son is not the Creator.

Revelation 4:10,11 reads, "The four and twenty elders fall down before Him that sat on the throne [YHWH], and worship Him that lives for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O [YHWH], to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

Jesus sits on the throne, Jesus is the Word, the Word is YHWH.

Then, Revelation 5:6-7 says, "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of [YHWH] sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne."

Yes correct, the Lamb stood in the middle of the throne!

Notice that the Lamb, Yeshua, takes the book from YHWH who sits on the throne. We just saw, in Revelation 4:10-11, that the one who sits on the throne is the Creator. Therefore, the one who takes the book from the Creator cannot also be the Creator.

I saw that they both sat on the throne.

No one saw YHWH with their eyes. Some saw Him in a vision. Moses only saw His fleeting glory.

The text does not say that, the text says they saw YHWH, yet they did not see the Father. No one has seen the Father, there is only one who is seen in the visions of the prophets, and that one is the Word.

Do you believe the Son is the Father?

The Word has always existed, the Word humbled Himself and became flesh.
The Word is God, the Father is God.

 

[gadar perets]

Jesus was not an angel, Jesus was sent by the Father.

Correct, he was not an angel, but when he was sent, he was not a preexistent being living in heaven that was somehow miniaturized and put in Miriam's womb. John the baptist was "sent from God" (John 1:6). Does that mean he also preexisted in heaven before he was sent. His baptism was "from heaven" (Matthew 21:25). Does that mean it existed in heaven? "From heaven" is a Hebrew idiom meaning its source is from YHWH. Manna is "bread from heaven" (Exodus 16:4). Does that mean it floated all the way down from the heaven where YHWH dwells? No. It means its source is from YHWH.

Joshua 5:13-15 (RSV)
Once when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing before him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went to him and said to him, ‘Are you one of us, or one of our adversaries?’ He replied, ‘Neither; but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.’ And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and he said to him, ‘What do you command your servant, my Lord?’ The commander of the army of the Lord said to Joshua, ‘Remove the sandals from your feet, for the place where you stand is holy.’

This man was not an angel, why do you say, 'messengers are angels'?

I believe the "commander of the army of YHWH" is Michael the "archangel" (chief angel). He commands "his" angels in Revelation 12:7 because he is the chief of them. You are reading the Son into Joshua 5:13-15.

No one has any idea who the Father is, only by looking at the Son can you see the Father.

Psalm 2:7 tells us EXACTLY who the Father is; YHWH. Please address this verse that you keep avoiding.

​

The Word becomes the Son, that is the begetting of the Son by the Father. The Word is coequal with the Father.

The Word was the creator of all things.

The logos became the Son. The logos is YHWH's spoken words and thoughts. He spoke His plans into existence when He created all things. He later spoke His Son into existence; His spoken words and thoughts became flesh.

1 Colossians
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him.

The correct translation is, "For in him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him."

You will bow down to Jesus, everyone will honor the Son as they honor the Father.

I already bow down to him and honor him, but I don't honor him as though he is my heavenly Father or the only true Elohim/God. Those distinctions belong to YHWH alone.

Jesus sits on the throne, Jesus is the Word, the Word is YHWH.

Yes correct, the Lamb stood in the middle of the throne!

I saw that they both sat on the throne.

Is he standing on the throne or sitting on it? In reality, he is standing before the middle of the throne. However, even if he was sitting on the throne, the fact remains that he takes the book out of the hand of the Creator. That means he is NOT the Creator. The true Creator, YHWH, created all things "through" the Son.

The text does not say that, the text says they saw YHWH, yet they did not see the Father. No one has seen the Father, there is only one who is seen in the visions of the prophets, and that one is the Word.

Please cite the verses you are referring to.

The Word has always existed, the Word humbled Himself and became flesh.
The Word is God, the Father is God.

You are choosing to read the Son into John 1:1-5 along with many OT verses that do not mention him. You are also capitalizing "Word" to make it seem like a personal noun when, in reality, the "logos" is a thing, not a person.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

You are choosing to read the Son into John 1:1-5 along with many OT verses that do not mention him. You are also capitalizing "Word" to make it seem like a personal noun when, in reality, the "logos" is a thing, not a person.

It is quite interesting to look at interlinear Greek/English and how the same Greek word has been translated several different ways in the English text. John 1:1-12 in the link below, the Greek word "ho" has been translated as "to those", "him", "this", "which", "his". Then, there is also the Greek word "autos" that has been translated as "him", "whose" and "it".

In the link below, one can click on a specific Greek word and look at other scriptures the same word has been used and translated in English. Gives much clearer understanding I find.

Bible Gateway passage: John 1:1-12 - Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament

 

[gadar perets]

In the link below, one can click on a specific Greek word and look at other scriptures the same word has been used and translated in English. Gives much clearer understanding I find.

Bible Gateway passage: John 1:1-12 - Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament

The above link is just another translation that reads the Son into the text (eisogesis - which basically means to read into the Bible rather than reading out of it. While exegesis is the process of drawing out the meaning from a text in accordance with the context and discoverable meaning of its author, eisegesis occurs when a reader imposes his or her interpretation into and onto the text.).

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

The above link is just another translation that reads the Son into the text (eisogesis - which basically means to read into the Bible rather than reading out of it. While exegesis is the process of drawing out the meaning from a text in accordance with the context and discoverable meaning of its author, eisegesis occurs when a reader imposes his or her interpretation into and onto the text.).

The main purpose of the link was to look at the GREEK word and its true meaning (to the right) when you click on the word...not the English so much. Sorry for not clarifying. Even Mounce took liberty to make assumptions on which English word to use for the Greek.

I use this source frequently for word studies because it is so easy to click on the Greek word and be given all the meanings for the Greek. It also gives other scriptures the same Greek word is used and how or which word the translator chose to use.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Nathanael was not referring to YHWH or Isaiah 44. He was referring to Yeshua. YHWH is the ultimate King of the universe and of Israel. He anointed Yeshua to be King of Israel just as He anointed Saul as their first king.

Psalm 2:6-7 make it perfectly clear that not only is Yeshua YHWH's chosen anointed King, but that Yeshua is NOT YHWH. He is YHWH's Son. When Nathanael said, "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God", his meaning was, "Thou art the Son of YHWH."

No Nathanael was calling Jesus or Yeshua Yahweh, Yahweh called himself King of Israel in Isa 44.
Other examples ;

1 Sam 12: 12 And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the Lord your God was your king.

Ps 149
Praise ye the Lord. ....Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.

Is 6
"for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."

Isa 43:15 I am the Lord, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

I think that make it pretty clear!

Nathanael would have been speaking Aramaic and he would have said Rabbi thou are the Son of El thou art the King of Israel or Yahweh.

Now to gadar perets
What you are missing is El

In Gen 1 Elohim creates and the words El and Elohim(s) are the first word used to recognize deity. However over the thousands of years it has lost its original meaning. El was the supreme God of the Canaanite and Semitic peoples. He was the Father of the gods in the Ugarit text and secular scholars claim the Hebrews barrowed from them.

But we are Bible believing people and believe there was a Noah and he taught his sons about God. As they left the Ark and became many nations they took this knowledge with them but most of them fell into apostasy thus El became an idol along with many other gods.

However this does not discount the truth that El is the supreme God.

In Ex 6 Yahweh speaks to Moses and says " And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

'The name of ' is added for clarification but it is not in the Hebrew. What it should say is 'in the name' of El Shadday ' Yahweh was the agent of El, he spoke for El. In Mal 1 Yahweh complains about the polluted sacrifice they bring to his alter and say 'You want me to "beseech El' for you, do you think he will "regard your persons"

Once again Yahweh is the mediator between mankind and El.

1 Tim 2 :5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Jesus and Yahweh are one and the same.

Now let’s look at Ps 2

1, Ps 2 is like Isa 14 which is really talking about the king of Babylon but we all assume is a metaphor for Satan. In like matter Ps 2 is speaking of David

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, …

Compare to

Ps 89 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

However we all assume the writer is using David as a metaphor for the coming Messiah.

2, The writer of this Psalm is quoting some thing which would have been familiar to his readers but which is now lost to us.

In Ps 82 he does it; “I have said, Ye are gods;….”

When did he say that, we don’t know because we have lost that scripture.

‘I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me,…’

It’s not ‘a decree’ but ‘the decree’ as if it had been give and now is being brought to pass by ‘me’. It does not tell us who me is!

3, The writer moves the speaker around.

First the writer himself speaks asking; “Why do the heathen rage, …”

Second he puts words into the mouth of the Lord; 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Next it’s hard to tell who is speaking;

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, …..

Then it switches back to the writer;
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

It’s hard to tell the real intent of the writer so to hang your hat on that one passage is just wrong.

3, The son could mean Israel

Isa 44: 1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: Thus saith the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb,…. Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant:

In verse 8 of Ps 2 say;
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

In Isa 54 Israel is told
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles,

So as Christians we could all be reading into this more than the writer ever intended.

4 There is a Hebrew concept which says a person can not be his own witness he must have a second witness to verify his authority. This influences a lot of our traditions and court system to day.

Jesus said in John 8
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

This occurred at the baptism of Jesus; Matt 3

“….and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
He then goes out into the wilderness for 40 days (depending on the versions) but upon his return he declares his authority to his new Apostles “And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.” John

So the pattern is the greater authority declares the authority of the lesser and then the lesser declares his own authority based on the authority of the greater.

In Isa 42 we have the same thing which happens in Ps 2 where the speaker switches from person to person.

At the beginning there is an unidentified voice which must be God the Father and he gives a witness to his servant’s authority and then prophecies of his coming to earth. It is a precursor to what happened to a the Lord’s baptism.

1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Yahweh then bears witness of himself and proclaims his own authority

5 ¶ Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the Lord have called thee/ Israel in righteousness,…

The Father declaring the authority of Yahweh and then Yahweh declaring his own authority. Jesus quotes this passage and claims that it is himself in Matt 12.

Then in about vers 10 the person speaking changes and it is Isaiah, he has heard the prophecy of the savant bring forth judgment to the earth which we as Christians believe to be with his atonement “He shall not fail” and he says in verse 13

“The Lord/Yahweh shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies…..now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once….And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them….. Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.”

Paul seems to paraphrase this in 1 Cor 15
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Yahweh/ Jesus taught the gospel and establish a new path in the New Covenant, he blessed the death and blind that the could ear and see. He put his enemy death under his feet.

Yahweh=Jesus

 

[klutedavid]

Correct, he was not an angel, but when he was sent, he was not a preexistent being living in heaven that was somehow miniaturized and put in Miriam's womb. John the baptist was "sent from God" (John 1:6). Does that mean he also preexisted in heaven before he was sent. His baptism was "from heaven" (Matthew 21:25). Does that mean it existed in heaven? "From heaven" is a Hebrew idiom meaning its source is from YHWH. Manna is "bread from heaven" (Exodus 16:4). Does that mean it floated all the way down from the heaven where YHWH dwells? No. It means its source is from YHWH.


I believe the "commander of the army of YHWH" is Michael the "archangel" (chief angel). He commands "his" angels in Revelation 12:7 because he is the chief of them. You are reading the Son into Joshua 5:13-15.


Psalm 2:7 tells us EXACTLY who the Father is; YHWH. Please address this verse that you keep avoiding.

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The logos became the Son. The logos is YHWH's spoken words and thoughts. He spoke His plans into existence when He created all things. He later spoke His Son into existence; His spoken words and thoughts became flesh.


The correct translation is, "For in him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him."


I already bow down to him and honor him, but I don't honor him as though he is my heavenly Father or the only true Elohim/God. Those distinctions belong to YHWH alone.


Is he standing on the throne or sitting on it? In reality, he is standing before the middle of the throne. However, even if he was sitting on the throne, the fact remains that he takes the book out of the hand of the Creator. That means he is NOT the Creator. The true Creator, YHWH, created all things "through" the Son.


Please cite the verses you are referring to.


You are choosing to read the Son into John 1:1-5 along with many OT verses that do not mention him. You are also capitalizing "Word" to make it seem like a personal noun when, in reality, the "logos" is a thing, not a person.

Hello gadar perets.

It might be better if we just make one point, then proceed step by step.

You made the statement.

Messengers from heaven are angels.

I disagreed with this generalization of yours, this is untrue.

I quoted the following passage.

Joshua 5:13-15 (RSV)
Once when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing before him with a drawn sword in his hand.

The text does not mention the term, angel, the text mentions, 'a man'. Regardless of what you may believe, the text I quoted refutes your generalization.

 

[gadar perets]

No Nathanael was calling Jesus or Yeshua Yahweh, Yahweh called himself King of Israel in Isa 44.

Nathanael nor any other Israelite would ever call a man YHWH. They knew the Scriptures. He was calling Yeshua the King of Israel. Israel had many kings and Yeshua is the last and current King. However, Yeshua's Father (YHWH) is Yeshua's God and King.

Other examples ;

1 Sam 12: 12 And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the Lord your God was your king.

Ps 149
Praise ye the Lord. ....Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.

Is 6
"for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."

Isa 43:15 I am the Lord, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

I think that make it pretty clear!

All those verses refer to Father YHWH.

Nathanael would have been speaking Aramaic and he would have said Rabbi thou are the Son of El thou art the King of Israel or Yahweh.

The Aramaic word is Alaha or variations such as Aloha and Elaha. Also, not that it matters, but you don't know if he spoke Aramaic or Hebrew.

Now to gadar perets
What you are missing is El

In Gen 1 Elohim creates and the words El and Elohim(s) are the first word used to recognize deity. However over the thousands of years it has lost its original meaning. El was the supreme God of the Canaanite and Semitic peoples. He was the Father of the gods in the Ugarit text and secular scholars claim the Hebrews barrowed from them.

Nonsense. They borrowed from YHWH's people.

In Ex 6 Yahweh speaks to Moses and says " And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

'The name of ' is added for clarification but it is not in the Hebrew. What it should say is 'in the name' of El Shadday ' Yahweh was the agent of El, he spoke for El.

Creative, but false. You just said the name of is not in the Hebrew, but then you add it in the English. The Hebrew is correctly translated, "by God Almighty".

In Mal 1 Yahweh complains about the polluted sacrifice they bring to his alter and say 'You want me to "beseech El' for you, do you think he will "regard your persons"

Mal 1:9 And now, I pray you, beseech El that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith YHWH of hosts.​

Is YHWH an "us"? The first part, "And now, I pray you, beseech El that he will be gracious unto us" are obviously not YHWH's words. He is speaking the words that the people would say to the priests upon giving them blemished offerings to offer to YHWH.

Once again Yahweh is the mediator between mankind and El.

1 Tim 2 :5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

You sure are doing a great job at twisting Scripture. Messiah Yeshua is the mediator between God (El) and man.

Jesus and Yahweh are one and the same.

Now let’s look at Ps 2

1, Ps 2 is like Isa 14 which is really talking about the king of Babylon but we all assume is a metaphor for Satan. In like matter Ps 2 is speaking of David

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, …

Compare to

Ps 89 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

However we all assume the writer is using David as a metaphor for the coming Messiah.

2, The writer of this Psalm is quoting some thing which would have been familiar to his readers but which is now lost to us.

In Ps 82 he does it; “I have said, Ye are gods;….”

When did he say that, we don’t know because we have lost that scripture.

‘I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me,…’

It’s not ‘a decree’ but ‘the decree’ as if it had been give and now is being brought to pass by ‘me’. It does not tell us who me is!

3, The writer moves the speaker around.

First the writer himself speaks asking; “Why do the heathen rage, …”

Second he puts words into the mouth of the Lord; 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Next it’s hard to tell who is speaking;

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, …..

Then it switches back to the writer;
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

It’s hard to tell the real intent of the writer so to hang your hat on that one passage is just wrong.

3, The son could mean Israel

Isa 44: 1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: Thus saith the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb,…. Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant:

In verse 8 of Ps 2 say;
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

In Isa 54 Israel is told
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles,

So as Christians we could all be reading into this more than the writer ever intended.

How is it that you don't know who is speaking?

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that He hath raised up Yeshua again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
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"God" refers to "YHWH" according to Psalm 2:7. "Son" refers to Yeshua. Do not willfully blind yourself.

4 There is a Hebrew concept which says a person can not be his own witness he must have a second witness to verify his authority. This influences a lot of our traditions and court system to day.

Jesus said in John 8
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

This occurred at the baptism of Jesus; Matt 3

“….and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
He then goes out into the wilderness for 40 days (depending on the versions) but upon his return he declares his authority to his new Apostles “And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.”

If you are trying to say Psalm 2:7 was quoted in Matthew 3:17, you are wrong. Those are words spoken from heaven that are not quotes of any OT verse.

5 ¶ Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the Lord have called thee/ Israel in righteousness,…

The Father declaring the authority of Yahweh and then Yahweh declaring his own authority.

Verse 5 are the words of Isaiah. Verse 6 are YHWH's words.

Jesus quotes this passage and claims that it is himself in Matt 12.

Which verse?

Yahweh=Jesus

Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Yeshua; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
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YHWH/Yahweh = the Father, NOT the Son.

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[gadar perets]

Hello gadar perets.

It might be better if we just make one point, then proceed step by step.

You made the statement.

I disagreed with this generalization of yours, this is untrue.

I quoted the following passage.

Joshua 5:13-15 (RSV)
Once when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing before him with a drawn sword in his hand.

The text does not mention the term, angel, the text mentions, 'a man'. Regardless of what you may believe, the text I quoted refutes your generalization.

Obviously it was not a "man", but an angel appearing as a man. I believe the "commander of the army of YHWH" is Michael the "archangel" (chief angel). He commands "his" angels in Revelation 12:7 because he is the chief of them. You are reading the Son into Joshua 5:13-15.

Surely you don't think it was the supposed pre-incarnate Son appearing as a man! You will need to prove that.