Col 2 regarding - "commandments of men" and "traditions of men"

[BobRyan]

Requesting that there be focus on the Bible texts and no breaking the CF forum rules please.

This "topic" is not of the form
1. List every tradition you can think of
2. Find as many Bible texts that you would like to dismiss as "tradition"

This "topic" is about Col 2 and whether it is merely condemning the "traditions of man" or if it is condemning scripture itself. Responses should deal with the content of what is actually in Col 2 along with any other texts that you believe should be related to Col 2 content.

Col 2: 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Certificate of debt. the debt owed being paid by blood sacrifice of Christ.

========================
proof for Col 2 -- condemning the traditions and doctrines of man - and upholding the Word of God --

Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Acts 15:1-2 the historic context of some folks 'making stuff up' and saying that one cannot be saved unless they comply with the made-up rules. In Col 2:14-15 Paul points out that salvation is through Christ who paid the debt of sin owed. Then Paul goes after all the various forms of making-stuff-up showing how it is condemned.

Col 2:
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

============= Christ Himself condemned Bible-denying traditions of man

GOD speaks for God and HE already spoke to this point of changing His Law via church tradition. As we see in Mark 7:6-13

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium of the one-true nation church of Christ day - started by God at Sinai -- is hammered "sola scriptura" in the case where it is shown via "Sola Scriptura" testing that it is traditions and "doctrines of men" that are at odds with scripture

================= Accuser of the Brethren condemned

In Rev 12 we see the work of the "Accuser of the brethren".

In Matt 7 (pre-cross -- and law in full effect) Christ condemns judging others.

In Col 2:16 we have this -

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


An example of NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)


Col 2 is opposed to making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with a made-up rule, even if that invented rule is based on "turning" a Bible command. - so this chapter is opposed to 'making stuff up' - via "man-made tradition"

 

[Bob S]

Well, I can think of three man-made doctrines that come from the church you espouse.
One is the investigative judgment. This is a purely man-made invention to save face when Jesus didn't return in 1844 as planned by Bill Miller and supported by Ellen Harmon. That is a command by the church to believe. P. S. Most Adventists today either do not understand that doctrine or sweep it under the rug, but it is there and nobody dare remove it.

Then there is the false tithing system devised by the church to fill the coffers when other plans to do it failed. As we know from the tithing system, as part of the old covenant laws, only those that raised livestock and /or crops paid the tax. The church revised that law so that everyone has to pay it or face losing their eternal inheritance. Jesus would not have been a tithe payer either. We are told to walk the walk of Jesus. Since Jesus was not a tithe payer why does the church falsely demand the flock to pay it or lose their eternal inheritance? That is a doctrine of men and Ellen White.

Of course, there is the promotion of the old covenant for Israel only Sabbath and judging others for not observing it. That is for sure a doctrine of men.

So you see Bob, the church is not lilly white, so when you point your finger at us you have some pointing back at you.

 

[BobRyan]

Well, I can think of three man-made doctrines that come from the church you espouse.
One is the investigative judgment. This is a purely man-made invention .

until you read Daniel 7 and 2 Cor 5:10.

I prefer the Bible.

 

[Bob S]

until you read Daniel 7 and 2 Cor 5:10.

I prefer the Bible.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Jn 5:24 Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life.

That is a long way from being the IJ and you know it. We may be there when the judgment is going on, but according to Jesus own words, we won't be judged. Just what do you think Jesus died for? Well, maybe you harp on the Sabbath so much you forgot that Jesus presents us faultless before the Father. He is able to do this because He died on a cross to set us free from our sins.

The IJ has Jesus sitting in a room for the last 160 years figuring out who is worthy of salvation. He made the Heavens and Earth in six days, but the SDA church has Him locked up in a room doing the accept or deny game for the past 160 years????

I notice you didn't touch the false tithing system of your church.

 

[BobRyan]

Well, I can think of three man-made doctrines that come from the church you espouse.
One is the investigative judgment. This is a purely man-made invention .

until you read Daniel 7 and 2 Cor 5:10.

I prefer the Bible.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Yep - that is one of the two texts...

That is a long way from being the IJ and you know it.

"Investigative Judgment" is shorthand used by Adventists to mean
1. We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for deeds done in the body whether they be good OR bad.
2. A judgment event in heaven where books are opened and court sits - and humanity is judged out of the things written in books.
3. A judgment event where judgment is passed in favor of the saints.
4. A judgment that proceeds along the lines defined by Romans 2
5. A judgment that takes place before the second coming during the same time where saints on earth are being persecuted. - while the everlasting gospel is being preached to the whole world.

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad..

Rom 14:12 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Yes that is part of the description just given.

Dan 7 -- the text I gave you and that you did not respond to...
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.


Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

The very things that you apparently claim - cannot possibly be so.

=======================

Now back to the actual topic of this thread.

Oh, Bob, why do you try to cover-up that little band of Adventists .

More substance -- less thread off-topic misdirection please. Were you hoping to be posting on the SDA forum when talking about what Christianity Today calls the 5th largest Christian denomination on planet earth (See Feb 2015 article)??

The SDA never had an inquisition.
That means that they have no real power.
Oh for the days of an inquisition .

Not sure how those kinds of responses even get on this thread.. What is up??

 

[Dkh587]

The irony of people quoting Colossians 2 to promote their disobedience to the Sabbath/holy days, yet Paul was encouraging the Colossians to not let people(pagans) judge them for keeping the Sabbath/holy days.

 

[Bob S]

Oh, Bob, why do you try to cover-up that little band of Adventists were trying to find a solution as to why Jesus didn't return and to cover-up the mistake. Hiram Edson, one of the faithful, went out through his field and came-up with what seemed to be the answer to cover the great mistake they all had gone through. Instead of Jesus 2nd coming what He really did was to go from one apartment in Heaven to a second apartment where he has been for 175 years determining, investigating who is safe to save, preposterous. 175 years and God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in it in 6 days.
Robert W. Olson wrote in a formative 1982 document whilst White Estate director:

While the term "shut door" at first was used to indicate probation's close in 1844, it soon came to mean the close of Christ's ministry in the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary. It stood for a change of Christ's ministry in heaven on October 22, 1844. In 1857, James White (husband of Ellen G. White) wrote in the Review and Herald (now the Adventist Review) that an "investigative judgment" was taking place in heaven, in which the lives of professed believers would pass in review before God.[32] This is the first time that the phrase "investigative judgment" was used. Investigative judgment - Wikipedia

Now we know the rest of the story and that you were trying to white wash the real meaning.

 

[Bob S]

The irony of people quoting Colossians 2 to promote their disobedience to the Sabbath/holy days, yet Paul was encouraging the Colossians to not let people(pagans) judge them for keeping the Sabbath/holy days.

Paul wrote: 16 Therefore do not let anyone
He didn't indicate pagans and the Colossians were not Jews. Jews were the ones that had the Sabbath, feast days, new moon celebrations and didn't eat certain foods. Why would anyone try to judge gentile Christians because they were doing all those things? That is ludicrous. It is the other way around my friend. People were trying to get the Colossians to keep all of those things. Paul then wrote that those things were shadows of things to come. I don't keep shadows and I won't, would you?

 

[klutedavid]

Well, I can think of three man-made doctrines that come from the church you espouse.
One is the investigative judgment. This is a purely man-made invention to save face when Jesus didn't return in 1844 as planned by Bill Miller and supported by Ellen Harmon. That is a command by the church to believe. P. S. Most Adventists today either do not understand that doctrine or sweep it under the rug, but it is there and nobody dare remove it.

Then there is the false tithing system devised by the church to fill the coffers when other plans to do it failed. As we know from the tithing system, as part of the old covenant laws, only those that raised livestock and /or crops paid the tax. The church revised that law so that everyone has to pay it or face losing their eternal inheritance. Jesus would not have been a tithe payer either. We are told to walk the walk of Jesus. Since Jesus was not a tithe payer why does the church falsely demand the flock to pay it or lose their eternal inheritance? That is a doctrine of men and Ellen White.

Of course, there is the promotion of the old covenant for Israel only Sabbath and judging others for not observing it. That is for sure a doctrine of men.

So you see Bob, the church is not lilly white, so when you point your finger at us you have some pointing back at you.

The SDA never had an inquisition.

That means that they have no real power.

Oh for the days of an inquisition when doctrine was real doctrine. Life and death depended on what you spoke and believed. Those were the days my friend and we thought they would never end.

These days everyone has started their own church to suit what their itching ears want to hear. Doctrine is meaningless and undefined. No one knows the scripture anymore. Dark days indeed.

 

[klutedavid]

Paul wrote: 16 Therefore do not let anyone
He didn't indicate pagans and the Colossians were not Jews. Jews were the ones that had the Sabbath, feast days, new moon celebrations and didn't eat certain foods. Why would anyone try to judge gentile Christians because they were doing all those things? That is ludicrous. It is the other way around my friend. People were trying to get the Colossians to keep all of those things. Paul then wrote that those things were shadows of things to come. I don't keep shadows and I won't, would you?

Somehow they got that one backwards.

They believe the Colossians were under the ceremonial law.

 

[Dkh587]

Paul wrote: 16 Therefore do not let anyone
He didn't indicate pagans and the Colossians were not Jews. Jews were the ones that had the Sabbath, feast days, new moon celebrations and didn't eat certain foods. Why would anyone try to judge gentile Christians because they were doing all those things? That is ludicrous. It is the other way around my friend. People were trying to get the Colossians to keep all of those things. Paul then wrote that those things were shadows of things to come. I don't keep shadows and I won't, would you?

The Colossians were Sabbath keepers - they weren’t lawless like you encourage everybody to be. They didn’t go to church on Sunday and celebrate pagan holidays like Christmas and Easter.

 

[Bob S]

The Colossians were Sabbath keepers - they weren’t lawless like you encourage everybody to be. They didn’t go to church on Sunday and celebrate pagan holidays like Christmas and Easter.

Oh, are you adding to scripture or are you merely puppeting what someone has taught you that is not Biblical? Isn't it one of your beliefs that what you deem as ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross? I know SDAs believe this and yet when it comes to Col 2 y'all want to defend the Israelite now-defunct Sabbath so much that you conveniently ignore the old covenant feast days and new moon days in verse 16. SDAs, the ones you side with, have the Colossians keeping old covenant feasts and new moons which SDAs don't keep. Yet another dilemma in man-made theories.

Yep, because you have been programmed to believe that the holidays we observe are pagan you are missing out on the blessings of those events. To you it is a sin to celebrate the birth of our Savior Jesus Christ and likewise His resurrection because both were started by the Roman Catholic church. That is just some more bologna.

 

[BobRyan]

The SDA never had an inquisition.

That means that they have no real power.

Oh for the days of an inquisition when doctrine was real doctrine. Life and death depended on what you spoke and believed. Those were the days my friend and we thought they would never end.

These days everyone has started their own church to suit what their itching ears want to hear. Doctrine is meaningless and undefined. No one knows the scripture anymore. Dark days indeed.

That's funny! We have one vote for the inquisition

 

[BobRyan]

Isn't it one of your beliefs that what you deem as ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross? I know SDAs believe this and yet when it comes to Col 2 y'all ...<obligatory rant deleted here> .

The Baptist Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of Faith and many others also agree that the ceremonial law - not the moral law of God ended at the cross. As you have been reminded 100 times on this forum so far.

But each time you come back with "I know SDAs believe this" as if it were true that this is some sort of distinct SDA teaching.

Were you imagining that you are posting on the SDA forum area of this board when going to these off-topic areas on this thread??

 

[BobRyan]

While the term "shut door" at first was used to indicate probation's close in 1844, it soon came to mean the close of Christ's ministry in the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary. It stood for a change of Christ's ministry in heaven on October 22, 1844.

A good example of what is not the topic of this thread.

Turning every thread you post on into a "why I don't like SDA history" is not in keeping with any of the rules of this forum. Go to a forum where that is the topic... start a thread on your pet topic. No need to derail this one.

 

[BobRyan]

While the term "shut door" at first was used to indicate probation's close .

No doubt I would love to talk about the shut door and close of probation found in Rev 15:8 and Rev 3:7

Rev 3
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:

Rev 15:8
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

But as you and I both know - that is not the topic of this thread and I cannot join you in derailing the topic of my own thread. Start a topic...

 

[Bob S]

No doubt I would love to talk about the shut door and close of probation found in Rev 15:8 and Rev 3:7

Rev 3
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:

Rev 15:8
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

But as you and I both know - that is not the topic of this thread and I cannot join you in derailing the topic of my own thread. Start a topic...

Nah, it isn't worth it Bob. You have more lame excuses than Carter has pills.

In regards to my posts being off-topic, What I have written is right on topic. I have been exposing the commandments of men and the IJ is one of those falsehoods.

 

[BobRyan]

In this example I offer to take your point seriously --

=============================================

While the term "shut door" at first was used to indicate probation's close .

No doubt I would love to talk about the shut door and close of probation found in Rev 15:8 and Rev 3:7

Rev 3
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:

Rev 15:8
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.

But as you and I both know - that is not the topic of this thread and I cannot join you in derailing the topic of my own thread. Start a topic...

Nah, it isn't worth it Bob.

Now we do agree on that.

 

[BobRyan]

I have been exposing the commandments of men and the IJ is one of those falsehoods.

I gave you the post with the texts.. you ignore the texts and then call them all "traditions"???

This "topic" is not of the form
1. List every tradition you can think of
2. Find as many Bible texts that you would like to dismiss as "tradition"

This "topic" is about Col 2 and whether it is merely condemning the "traditions of man" or if it is condemning scripture itself. Responses should deal with the content of what is actually in Col 2 along with any other texts that you believe should be related to Col 2 content.

start your own topic if you want to keep pursuing these "non-Col2 but I don't like SDA history" topics

 

[Dkh587]

Oh, are you adding to scripture or are you merely puppeting what someone has taught you that is not Biblical? Isn't it one of your beliefs that what you deem as ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross? I know SDAs believe this and yet when it comes to Col 2 y'all want to defend the Israelite now-defunct Sabbath so much that you conveniently ignore the old covenant feast days and new moon days in verse 16. SDAs, the ones you side with, have the Colossians keeping old covenant feasts and new moons which SDAs don't keep. Yet another dilemma in man-made theories.

Yep, because you have been programmed to believe that the holidays we observe are pagan you are missing out on the blessings of those events. To you it is a sin to celebrate the birth of our Savior Jesus Christ and likewise His resurrection because both were started by the Roman Catholic church. That is just some more bologna.

Sorry, but I’m not SDA.