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COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by LoveGodsWord, Aug 10, 2017.

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  1. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    I believe if you research it, you'll find that olive trees do have trunks.
    Olive Tree Pictures: Photo, Images of Olive Trees
    Olive - Wikipedia

    It sounds like you are confusing Jewish with Israelite. My point was that it is not an ethnic identity but a national one.


    Where in Scripture does it say that God made a Covenant with all the nations?
     
  2. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello David,
    Did you read post # 1562 that you quoted from? If you did would not need to ask that question as your answer is in the scriptures provided in the post. Ask Jesus for His Spirit and let God's Word do the talking. If you did read but missed it have a look at the scriptures found in James 2:8-12; Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:36-40; also compare Matt 22:36-40 to Matthew 19:17-19 (same question asked) compare to the rest of the post in # 1562. Let God's Word do the talking and you will have an answer to your question from your farther which is in Heaven.
     
  3. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello David,
    I generally use KJV as my go to, but will also use multiple bible translations if God impresses me to dig deeper. I also use Hebrew/Greek lexicons, Strong's and other dictionaries. But the core secret ingredient is found where no one can see except those that are blind because they walk by faith and not by sight in the promises of God's Word. (John 14:26)
     
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Maybe he was thinking of the vine instead of the olive tree (John 15:1-10)?
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
  5. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    Could be, I didn't even think of that. We all make mistakes, and as Paul said, "I am the chief among them".
     
  6. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello Dig4truth.

    The olive tree has multiple trunks where as most other trees have a single trunk.

    Olive Tree Info
    Young trees grow rapidly, but growth slows as they mature, eventually reaching a height of 7 to 10 Meters, depending on the cultivar. Most trees naturally develop a multi-trunk growth habit. Single trunk trees require considerable training, involving judicious pruning and staking to control the natural habit. (www.oldtree.info/general-information)

    Anyone who wants a single trunk olive tree has to manage their olive tree to prevent multiple trunks forming.
     
  7. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    This is true for wild olives and something I did not realize so thanks for sharing. However cultivated olive trees as referred to in God's Word are pruned and grafted and do not have multiple trunks.
     
  8. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    Interesting. When I looked at the pictures there were so many different looking trees that it was quite overwhelming. Many with single trunks and many with multiple trunks.

    All I know is that I couldn't eat a salad without olive oil in my dressing! I have some Italian in my lineage, so what can I say.
     
  9. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Mangia bene, ridi spesso, ama molto. – Eat well, laugh often, love much.

    L’amore vince sempre – Love conquers all.


    La vita è un sogno – Life is a dream.

    La semplicità è l’ultima sofisticazione – Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
    -Leonardo Da Vinci

    Una cena senza vino e come un giorno senza sole – A meal without wine is a day without sunshine.

    L’amore, Bob


     
  10. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    Don't sweat the petty stuff and don't pet the sweaty stuff.

    George Carlin
     
  11. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello LGW.

    In the modern era, olive trees are harvested with machinery, so one needs an olive tree with a single trunk. To harvest the olive tree the machine grabs the trunk and shakes the tree, the olives fall into a tray. In Paul's era there was no reason to cultivate a single trunk tree. They would have cultivated for the taste and quantity of the olives, they would not have reduced the trunks.
     
  12. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi David, Do you have any proof? I am not sure why we are talking about olives and multiple trunks to be honest though and what this has to do with the OP.
     
  13. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello Dig4truth.

    You asked, where in the scripture does God declare a covenant with all the nations.

    Isaiah 42:6-7
    “I am the Lord, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You. And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, as a light to the nations, to open blind eyes, to bring out prisoners from the dungeon. And those who dwell in darkness from the prison.
     
  14. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello LGW.

    We are discussing the point, that Gentiles are grafted into the root (Christ) of the olive tree. Gentiles comprise separate branches of the olive tree in their own right. Olive trees have multiple trunks, hence, Gentiles do not need to become Jews!
     
  15. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi David,

    Thanks for the clarification. You may need to revisit your definition of what being grafted in means. A graft normally takes place on the branch not the root where a branch is cut off. In horticulture a graft uses a foreign variety that grows into the mother plant. Pretty much sounds like Gentiles being grafted into the mother church of God's Israel (as defined by God's Word; The believers that obey and follow God)

    GR'AFTED, participle passive Inserted on a foreign stock.

    It is where a foreign stock or another variety is inserted into the cut off branch of the mother plant.

    Hope this helps
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  16. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello LGW.

    Your reply generates a contradiction, the branch of Israel was severed from the root of the olive tree. Israel was hardened to the truth of Jesus Christ.

    How can Gentiles be grafted onto severed branches. How can Gentiles be grafted into an apostate nation?

    The scripture says we grafted in among the other branches, not attached to these branches.
     
  17. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Hello LGW.

    On the subject of the understanding of the verse (Colossians 2:14).

    Colossians 2:14
    14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

    The decrees against us that were hostile to us, are formally the moral laws contained in written decrees. God is not so much a stickler for ceremonial laws, ceremonial laws are not decrees that are opposed to us. Ceremonial laws are not really hostile to us, breaking ceremonial laws will not condemn you to hell.

    We need to understand what Paul is really saying in this verse (Colossians 2:14). We have a parallel verse in another letter of Paul.

    Ephesians 2:15
    by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace.

    This verse more clearly emphasizes what generates this hostility between us and God. The commandments contained in written form (decrees), the commandments will condemn you to hell, the commandments are hostile to us!

    The ceremonial law contained in ordinances are trivial, hence to translate (Colossians 2:14) with an emphasis on ceremonial law is a deep error. I repeat, the true hostility of the law to mankind is always the moral law. The moral law declares that human behavior is devoid of love.

    Adultery is a moral law, to commit adultery is a death sentence under the law. The commandment against adultery is a very hostile decree, a decree not to be taken lightly.

    A ceremonial law as shown below.

    Exodus 29:38
    Now this is what you shall offer on the altar: two one year old lambs each day, continuously.

    This decree is not a moral law, thus this decree contains no real hostility towards us.
     
  18. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi David,

    Did you have a chance to read post # 1573? (linked) showing who God's Israel is? There is no contradiction with God's Word as all the other scriptures previously provided in post # 1573 confirm and compliment Romans 11:17-24. This post will continue and build on post # 1573.

    All throughout the Old and New Testament the scriptures refer to God's Israel as defined by His Word as those that are chosen by God from the seed of Abraham who have his Word. His true followers are those the have his Word and believe and follow it.

    Q1 What is represented by the Olive tree?

    Jeremiah 11:16-17

    6, The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. 17, For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

    Hosea 14:5-6

    5, I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon. 6, His branches shall spread, 4 and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.

    A.1 God's Israel is represented in scripture as the olive tree. (also fig tree and grape vine)


    Now that we know that the Olive tree in scripture represents God's Israel let's look at Romans 11:17-24. The scripture on being grated in reads as follows;

    Romans 11:17-24

    17, And if some of the branches be broken off <Only some of the branches are broken off>, and thou, being a wild olive tree <2. Who is the Wild olive tree? Gentiles>, wert graffed in among them <where were they grafted? In among the branches that were broken off>, 5 and with them <Who is them? Israel> partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree <Who is the root? Jesus>;18, Boast not against the branches <Israel>. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19, Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20, Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21, For if God spared not the natural branches <Israel>, take heed lest he also spare not thee <Gentiles>. 22, Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23, And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again <Those of Israel that did not believe>. 24, For if thou were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

    Summary
    Q1. What does the Olive tree represent in God's Word?
    A1. The Olive tree represents Israel (Jeremiah 11:16-17; Hosea 14:5-6)

    Q2. Who is the wild Olive tree being referred to?
    A2. Gentiles (Romans 11:11-13)

    Q3. Who is being referred to as having some of the branches broken off and why?
    A3. Israel because of their unbelief (Romans 11:20)

    Let's bring it all together...

    Romans 11 uses the Olive tree to demonstrate that God was bringing the Gentiles (wild branches) into His cultivated olive tree (God's Israel; Jeremiah 11:16-17) through the Messiah, (Jesus). He makes it clear that while Israel is not cast aside (vs. 1) only a remnant (vs. 5) believed and the rest fell in order to bring the richness of salvation to the Gentiles of the world. Vs. 17 and vs. 24 illustrate that Israel is the olive tree “And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree (Jesus).

    Galatians 3:29
    ,

    And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed <God's Israel>, and heirs according to the promise

    For it is written…

    Now to Abraham and his seed <Israel> were the promises made. He says not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ

    Now who is Abraham’s seed?

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus and if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed <Israel>, and heirs according to the promise.

    For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed <The children of the promise are those in Christ; previous verses>.

    Hope this is helpful. The above should be read in connection with post #1573 which supports this post.

    In Christ Always!
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  19. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi David,
    I am happy to go through your post with you. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. May I ask before we proceed that you have a read of the 4 PART OP starting in post # 1 and linked to PART 2-4 at the bottom? Most of what you are presenting in this post has already been addressed in the OP. Once you have done that if you believe something has not been covered please let me know and we can discuss it further?

    In Christ Always!
     
  20. Dig4truth

    Dig4truth Newbie

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    With all due respect, this only supports the truth that it is Israel, the Covenant nation, that is to bring the light of Messiah to the world (nations).

    Notice that it says; "I will appoint YOU as a covenant to the people".
     
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