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COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by LoveGodsWord, Aug 10, 2017.

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  1. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    I will Simply refer to you. You do not understand the meat/ core foundation upon which the NC stands. You know nothing of spirit filled Christianity. You just read the letter of scripture and base your views on a very shallow understanding of the partial letter.
    The result? Sadly hypocrisy. You do not practice what you preach
     
  2. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    It's a pity you didn't read one if soyeongs points.
    Some one who loves God will continually repent
     
  3. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    They may be ever seeing
    But never perceiving
    Ever hearing
    But never understanding
    Mark4:12
     
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Ok Stuart, lets agree to disagree. Name calling is not necessary. If you do not agree with something I have posted I am happy to talk scripture with you. You are not upset with me it is God's Word that you are having problems with. Lets chat latter when you are feeling more cheerful.

    In Christ Always!
     
  5. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Of course I agree with what soyeong is saying. I am saying exactly the same thing. Someone who is repenting to God is not in unrepentant sin are they? Unrepentant sin is living in sin without repentance.
     
  6. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    My friend, Jesus was more upset with the religious who did not practice what they preached than he was with anyone else. Was Jesus not a cheerful person?
    However, it is sadly true. You only have a very shallow understanding of the partial letter. And you do indeed demand of others what you do not demand of yourself.
    Should I be cheerful about that? No! For I know, as do many Christian counsellors the tragic state many believers lives have ended up in, due to people preaching what they do not practice. My concern is for them, not those who are responsible for them ending up that way
     
  7. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Let's see if you can understand this then
    Anyone who truly loves God and has been born again of the holy spirit will continually repent. So your question is wasted on them isn't it
     
  8. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Friend it is not our job to judge others. Our job is to help them. God's Word will judge all of us so it is not for us to do (John 12:47-48) Our job is to share God's Word
     
  9. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    It is our job to discern hypocrisy and point it out. For people reading your posts may assume, incorrectly you attain to what you demand of others, thereby crushing them.
    That is showing love and concern to others
     
  10. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Did Jesus fail to show love, by telling religious hypocrites they were:
    Sons of vipers
    Sons of their father the devil
    They were hypocrites
    They did not even know his father
    Etc
     
  11. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Ok. I do not judge you but remember the scriptures for your own walk with the Lord. I will go now nice to talk to you. Lets chat latter if you like I have to get some dinner now.

    Romans 2:1
    Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judges: for wherein thou judges another, thou condemns thyself; for thou that judges does the same things.

    John 12:47-48,
    And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejects me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    In Christ Always!
     
  12. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    What business it is of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
    1cor5:12
    BTW

    I have never judged whether anyone who claims to be in a saved state is in one.
    Strange you should write about obeying/ believing what Jesus said:

    When he( the holy spirit) comes he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgement.
    In regard to sin because men do not believe in me. In regard to righteousness because I am going to my father and you will see me no longer. In regard to judgement because the prince of this world now stands condemned
    John16:8-11

    So who is convicting you of your beliefs?

    Enjoy your dinner
     
  13. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn't make any sense within the context of the surrounding verses to translate "telos" as "end", though even "end" as within it range of meanings "intention" or "aim". The point being made in the preceding verses that they misunderstood the point of the law, so pursuing the law as a means of establishing our own righteousness has always been a misunderstanding of it, which Paul spent a lot of time trying to correct and show that we have always been justified by faith apart from the Law. I recommend this article that talks about how this verse has historically been translated:

    How is Christ the

    In Deuteronomy 6:20-25, obeying the Law is in regard to having faith in God to free them slavery and to bring them up out of Egypt with a mighty hand, faith in God to defeat Pharaoh, faith in God to bring them to the land that He promises their forefathers, faith in God that His commands are for their own good, and faith in God to preserve them. So it is by faith that righteousness is theirs and by the same faith that they are to be careful to obey all of God's commands.

    Indeed, as a Pharisee, Paul had though that righteousness came through observing the Law, and though he had zeal for God, it was not according to knowledge because he had been ignorant of the righteousness of God and had sought to establish his own (Romans 10:2-3). So righteousness apart from the Law hadn't been known to him, but now it had been made known.

    God's Law is straightforwardly His instructions for how to live for Him. Are you seriously trying to argue that it is better to completely live in disobedience to God's commands than to try to obey them by faith and fail to do so faultlessly? All throughout the OT God wanted His people to repent and turn back to obedience to His commands, but now in the NT God wants His people to disobey them? Satan doesn't need to bother those who are living in sin, but those who are seeking to follow God.

    The Law was never about how to become righteous, but about what we are to do because we have been made righteous. For instance, the Law reveals that it is acting in accordance with God's righteousness to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone who is not righteous to become righteous, but rather we are to help the poor because God has made us righteous. When we seek to do good in obedience to God's commands, the law of sin will stir up sinful passions, but that does not mean that we should not seek to do good in obedience to God's commands.
     
  14. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Deut6:25 plainly states. The people's righteousness would be obeying the law. The KJV is reputed by many to be the most accurate translation of the Bible. And it's version of rom 10:4 is undoubtedly endorsed by numerous other scriptures of Pauls. As I am on a mobile I can't copy/ paste them . In truth I should not need to. I am glad you agree, Saul the pharisee did believe in righteousness of observing the law
    Am I trying to argue the Christian can live in disobedience to Gods laws?
    The core foundation of the NC is twofold. Firstly, the law is written on your mind and placed on your heart. Meaning, in your mind you know what that law is, for you must know in your mind what is in your mind. And as the law is in your heart, you in your heart want to obey it. So how could I be arguing the Christian is fine to live a life disobeying Gods laws? They in their heart desire to live as God wants them to.
    But the way to obedience is not living under righteousness of observing the law, for that is where the true power of sin lies( 1cor15:56)
    In this sense, as Paul relentlessly tells us, we have been released from the law/ we die to the law/ we are not under the law.
    You DONT live a life in accordance with the law placed on your heart by looking to that law and striving to obey it. You look to Christ, and trust him, through the spirit to continually sanctify you. By doing this, the fruit of the Spirit grows in your life( gal5:22)
    Against that fruit, THERE IS NO LAW( verse23)

    For that fruit is the embodiment of how God wants you to live
     
  15. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    I used to love Bible quizzes as a child. Walking to church my mother used to teach me likely quiz questions. She had two huge books of Q&A concerning scripture. I learnt a lot, hence I loved Bible quizzes. Of course, I didn't learn the full gospel message that way, just made me look good in quizzes:)
     
  16. listed

    listed are you?

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    But you're saying we sin by violating a covenant that has no jurisdiction. It would be the same as saying a person violates the law of another state (or province) they are not in.
     
  17. listed

    listed are you?

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    Oh my!
     
  18. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sir, there is no such thing in scripture that differentiates Torah into parts. Col 2:14 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

    If you would read 2Cor 3:7-11 you would find that the 10 commandments were the ministry of death. They stood against the Jews and were only temporary being replaced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. No, you will not recognize that Paul wrote those words in past tense and wrote that the 10 were transitory. You cannot look at verses that tell the real truth. God never imposed those commands on any other nation. He imposed them on Israel to make them a special people, a holy nation. Torah didn't have anything to do with their salvation yet SDAs try to twist scripture to prove that Sabbath is part of the plan of salvation. It never was and it never will be. What you do is your business, but for you or the SDA church to spread such a lie is inexcusable.

    In my last post I also commented on your ability to really "keep" Sabbath. I notice you didn't comment on that part. Did I hit a nerve? For many years I too was programed to believe what you do. I do not believe I was much different than you. I never once in my almost 40 years of trying ever kept the Sabbath. Now, I know there is no command for Christians to "keep" Sabbath, so I now know I was not sinning, but I did, at the time, make myself miserable trying and failing. That is that last thing I would want to do again and I am wondering why you would even try to convince others what you cannot accomplish.

    Where there is no law there is no sin. It was Torah that was nailed to the Cross.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  19. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Deuteronomy 6:25 And it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to do all this commandment before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us.’

    This verse does not say they will be righteous by obeying the Law, but that they will be righteous if they obey the Law. The reason why they will be righteous if they obey the Law is because they will be acting in faith, as the previous verses are in regard. Throughout the Bible, faith is always associated with a willingness to obey God's commands because it is about trusting Him to guide us in how to rightly live and we can't do that while refusing to submit to His guidance. Every example of saving faith in Hebrews 11 is also an example of someone living in obedience to God's commands, but has never been the obedience itself that makes us righteous, but rather we are made righteous by having a faith that requires our careful obedience.

    We have more manuscripts and better ones available to us than were available to the translators of the KJV and they were subject to their own set of biases just as other translators were, so there are many more people who do not consider it to be the most accurate translation, and even if it is the most accurate, that is not the same as being free from error because the KJV makes a number of errors. In any case, the Greek word "telos" can mean either "end" or "goal" and the article make a strong case for why it should be translated as "goal". There are other verses that say that God's Law is eternal (Psalms 119:160), so saying that Christ came to do away with his commands would not make any sense in itself, it would not make any sense within the context of Romans 10:4, an it would contradict the rest of the Bible.

    In Romans 7:21-25, Paul contrast God's Law that he served with his mind and the law of sin that held him captive that he served with his flesh. In Romans 7:8, he described the law of sin as giving sin it's power, so 1 Corinthians 15:56 is referring to the law of sin, not to God's Law. The problem is not with God's righteous standard, but with the law of sin that is hindering us from living according to God's righteous standard, so the solution to the problem is not to free us from having to do what is righteous, but to free us from the law of sin so that we are free to do what is righteous. Again, it would not make any sense to interpret Romans 7:4 does not say that we have died to God's Law so that we can free to live for God by obeying God's Law, but rather it refers to us dying to the law of our husband, as Paul just finished talking about in verses 1-3.

    I agree that we should look to Christ as our example and should trust him, and he taught obedience to the Law both by word and by example, so we should trust him to guide us in how to live by living accordingly. The fruit of the Spirit are the attributes of God and the Mosaic Law was given to teach us how to live according to the attributes of God, so there is no law against them because they are all in accordance with the Law. The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should obey and does not lead us to sin in disobedience to the Father, but rather the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to the Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), so if you are led by the Spirit, then you are under the Law.
     
  20. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, we have both made our views known on deut6:25
    Paul states:

    But NOW a righteousness apart from law has been made known....rom3:21

    Therefore, before NOW what must have been in place? Endorsing the KJV concerning rom10:4
    You say it would make no sense to believe Paul is saying:
    Christ is the END of the law unto righteousness for that would mean doing away with Gods commands. Here we completely part company. For you, the KJV would give a licence to sin, for me it is victory over sin.
    Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness confirms:
    Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.
    It is one of the two Core points on which the NC stands.
    You do NOT do away with Gods laws if Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, for thelaw God desires you to follow is written in your mind and placed on your heart and it will NEVER be removed, as long as you live.
    You do not need a law of righteousness in place, for you in your heart to want to live as God desires you to live. And for the truly born again Christian that DOES NOT change by the law of righteousness being removed, for i repeat, the law itself remains in your heart.
    But the true power of sin is in the law of righteousness. Therefore if you remove it:
    For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law( of righteousness) but under grace
    Rom6:14

    Rom. Ch7 is all about living under a righteousness of observing the law. The result in SAul the Pharisees life was that sin was then his master and he was sins slave, confirming what I have written.

    If you are led by the Spirit then you are under the law???
    Paul completely disagrees with you:

    But if you are led by the Spirit you are NOT under law
    Gal5:18
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
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